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Formatting and language conventions
For articles about Indonesia, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: Rp100 and not IDR 100, 100 rupiah, Rp. 100 nor Rp 100. For areas accepting foreign currency, use S$ for places accepting Singapore Dollars, use A$ for places accepting Australian Dollars, and for places accepting US Dollars, use US$. Please use Australian spelling (colour, realise, program, centre, labour (but Labor Party), analog, program). Phone numbers should be formatted as +62 YYY-XXX XXXX. |
Incomprehensible advice for vegetarians
[edit]In the section Dietary restrictions we say
- Strict vegetarians and vegans will have a tough time in Indonesia […] You can, however, ask them to make something without meat, which can be indicated by asking for "vegetarian" or "tanpa daging dan/atau hasil laut (seafood)".
For me, who don't understand the language, this is very unclear. If they understand "vegetarian", then why not just use that word? Does the dash mean that "dan" and "atau" are synonymous (in this context) or something else? Why is the seafood parenthesis included in the quoted phrase? Would I get seafood if I ask for "tanpa daging dan hasil laut", or if I ask for "atau hasil laut"? –LPfi (talk) 16:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- I agree the quoted phrase is confusing (almost comically so) for someone who doesn't understand Indonesian. Google Translate tells me that it means "without meat and/or seafood", itself a somewhat unusual and ambiguous phrase in English. If I want to communicate that I eat neither meat nor seafood, I'm not sure whether or how to modify the phrase to get the point across. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Maybe because sometimes seaweed are categorized as seafood, because they came from the sea, even though it's not a meat. The correct sentence would be "tanpa seafood" (yes, almost everyone use English to call "seafood") or "tanpa daging ikan" ("without fish meat", which sometimes also means "without crabs, shells, and squids"). Veracious (talk) 09:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- But if I want vegetarian food (no meat, no poultry, no fish, no crabs etc.)? Can I then ask for "vegetarian" food or might that not be understood? If not, what should I say? If I understand correctly, asking for "tanpa seafood" could get me a beef (I assume tanpa means "without"). As I neither know the grammar nor the individual words, I need a phrase I can use, not only fragments to combine in ways not known to me. (Yes, if "hasil laut" is seafood including seaweed, but "seafood" is non-vegetarian seafood, then I understand the parenthesis, but I still need the complete phrase.) –LPfi (talk) 12:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Most of restaurant in Indonesia know what vegetarian is. Now for the street food stalls.. to ask for vegetarian menu, you can say "Tolong sayuran aja, jangan ada/pakai daging-dagingan." (vegetable only, no meat, please)
- (Sorry for the late reply, i don't put this page on my watchlist) Veracious (talk) 08:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- what about the use of terasi? g e c k t r e k (Talk) 08:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Gecktrek "Terasi" is basically a shrimp paste (sometimes made from a fish). I don't think it counted as a vegetarian menu. Veracious (talk) 08:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- How do you pronounce the "/"? Please add the advice, including the complete phrase (including any "please" etc.) to the paragraph in question. It is hard to do for me, who would have to just blindly copy your advice. –LPfi (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Hmm, ok, i will try to do a long-phrase. Here are some of my examples:
- "Saya vegetarian, jadi saya ingin pesan makanan yang sayur-sayuran saja. Tolong jangan ada daging-dagingan."
- "Saya vegetarian, jadi saya ingin pesan makanan yang sayur-sayuran saja. Tolong jangan ada daging-dagingan."
- (I'm a vegetarian, so I want to order vegetable-only dishes. No meat, please."
- "Apa ada makanan yang sayuran saja? Karena saya vegetarian, jadi saya tidak makan daging."
- "Apa ada makanan yang sayuran saja? Karena saya vegetarian, jadi saya tidak makan daging."
- (Is there any vegetable-only dishes? Because I'm a vegetarian, so I don't eat meats.)
- "Apa saya bisa pesan menu sayuran saja? Soalnya saya tidak makan daging."
- "Apa saya bisa pesan menu sayuran saja? Soalnya saya tidak makan daging."
- (May I order vegetable-only dishes? Because I don't eat any meat.)
- Hope this helps. Veracious (talk) 08:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Could something like that be said shorter? If one relies on a phrasebook, those phrases are awkwardly long. Realistically, to use them, one would point at them in the Wikivoyage page on one's screen. Are they the ones you would suggest for that use? Are there any you could learn and tell aloud? –LPfi (talk) 09:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- By the "including any please" I meant phrases that can be used as such, without any additions you would assume I'd add by myself. –LPfi (talk) 09:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- use of something like google translate on your phone? g e c k t r e k (Talk) 10:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Can you write the "short phrase" that you desire in English language? Or.. you could've just simply use google translate on your phone, like @Gecktrek said. Veracious (talk) 10:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I would say "Do you have any vegetarian food?" I could of course try to use Google translate myself, but I wouldn't know whether I can trust the translation. I don't think we should recommend Google instead of giving specific advice. –LPfi (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Hmm, you could say "Apa ada makanan khusus vegetarian?" (Is there any food for vegetarian?) Veracious (talk) 04:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- That one seems reasonable. Does it have issues with "vegetarian" understood in a way the traveller wouldn't expect, such as your getting fish and shrimps? –LPfi (talk) 07:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi That depends on the food seller's knowledge. Most of upsacle restaurant know about vegetarian. But if you are having a feast on street food, you can reassure them by saying "Juga jangan pakai ikan atau udang" (Also, no fish or shrimps) Veracious (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- As a Malay-speaker, I'd translate that as "Also, don't use fish or shrimp," which would be a command to the seller. Indonesians wouldn't use "Saya juga tidak makan ikan atau makanan laut" ("I also don't eat fish or seafood")? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well.. both of them are ok. Veracious (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2025 (UTC)
- As a Malay-speaker, I'd translate that as "Also, don't use fish or shrimp," which would be a command to the seller. Indonesians wouldn't use "Saya juga tidak makan ikan atau makanan laut" ("I also don't eat fish or seafood")? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi That depends on the food seller's knowledge. Most of upsacle restaurant know about vegetarian. But if you are having a feast on street food, you can reassure them by saying "Juga jangan pakai ikan atau udang" (Also, no fish or shrimps) Veracious (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- That one seems reasonable. Does it have issues with "vegetarian" understood in a way the traveller wouldn't expect, such as your getting fish and shrimps? –LPfi (talk) 07:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Hmm, you could say "Apa ada makanan khusus vegetarian?" (Is there any food for vegetarian?) Veracious (talk) 04:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- I would say "Do you have any vegetarian food?" I could of course try to use Google translate myself, but I wouldn't know whether I can trust the translation. I don't think we should recommend Google instead of giving specific advice. –LPfi (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- By the "including any please" I meant phrases that can be used as such, without any additions you would assume I'd add by myself. –LPfi (talk) 09:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Could something like that be said shorter? If one relies on a phrasebook, those phrases are awkwardly long. Realistically, to use them, one would point at them in the Wikivoyage page on one's screen. Are they the ones you would suggest for that use? Are there any you could learn and tell aloud? –LPfi (talk) 09:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Hmm, ok, i will try to do a long-phrase. Here are some of my examples:
- what about the use of terasi? g e c k t r e k (Talk) 08:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- But if I want vegetarian food (no meat, no poultry, no fish, no crabs etc.)? Can I then ask for "vegetarian" food or might that not be understood? If not, what should I say? If I understand correctly, asking for "tanpa seafood" could get me a beef (I assume tanpa means "without"). As I neither know the grammar nor the individual words, I need a phrase I can use, not only fragments to combine in ways not known to me. (Yes, if "hasil laut" is seafood including seaweed, but "seafood" is non-vegetarian seafood, then I understand the parenthesis, but I still need the complete phrase.) –LPfi (talk) 12:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- @LPfi Maybe because sometimes seaweed are categorized as seafood, because they came from the sea, even though it's not a meat. The correct sentence would be "tanpa seafood" (yes, almost everyone use English to call "seafood") or "tanpa daging ikan" ("without fish meat", which sometimes also means "without crabs, shells, and squids"). Veracious (talk) 09:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Crime section
[edit]@M.akbar.raf, Bennylin, Jpatokal: Is the crime in Indonesia really as bad as is described? Maybe things have changed, but I don't recall it being that dangerous. Petty thefts were common, but I didn't find it any less safe than say, India with regard to violent crime. The dog2 (talk) 14:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed that the article sounds a bit alarmist, but it's also sending mixed messages: "car jackings, burglaries and armed robberies are relatively common" on one line, "crime remains mostly non-violent, and guns are rare" on the next. I've taken a stab at making it more consistent and less alarmist. Jpatokal (talk) 21:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- @The dog2 That's actually depends on the area. Veracious (talk) 09:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think we should be a bit more specific in terms of where the crime happens, as Indonesia is a very populous country, so the situation would differ by province. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- @The dog2 That's actually depends on the area. Veracious (talk) 09:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Anti-Zionism or Antisemitism?
[edit]Currently, I’m seeing the respect section, on the sensitive topics that says:
- “Both Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism are pretty strong in the Muslim communities; it's best to not discuss about Israel. Many Indonesian Muslims are vocal in their support for Palestine and Palestinians.”
Apparently, one of these editors have disagreed that anti-Zionism is antisemitism, and decided to change here, only in fact to have the term “antisemitism” added by an another editor in mid-2025, saying in both. Could this be added to the travel guide or this should be removed? I seen this atMalaysia or Philippines travel guide and it looks fine to me. I might decide that if this could be edited further more. 2600:387:15:4918:0:0:0:7 00:07, 19 July 2025 (UTC)
- What do you want to add? They are indeed not the same, as there is a difference between being opposed to the existence of Israel, let alone angry at Israeli governments, and being hostile to individual Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:02, 19 July 2025 (UTC)
- I see that the mention of antisemitism was removed, but I question that because there are Nazi enthusiasts in Indonesia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
- User:Pineapplethen, a penny for your thoughts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve never heard there were “Nazi enthusiasists” in Indonesia. What was possible was, the 2 dictatorship before reformation of 1998, might follow Nazi-styled rhetorics, but even they never formally claimed to be “Nazi symphatizers.” Anti-Zionism is what usually common in Indonesia. Since Jews comprise only 0.0001%, there aren’t anti-semitism in practice. What is true though, many Islamic institutions are in fact anti-semitic like MUI or certain people in Friday prayer sermons but not the majority of Indonesia or the vast majority of Indonesian Muslims that hold this view. Pineapplethen (talk) 01:21, 23 July 2025 (UTC)
- First, please read the "Sensitive topics" paragraph about Nazism. Second, there do not have to be many or even any Jews in a country for there to be antisemitism. If that were true, Canada would be more antisemitic than Saudi Arabia and Poland, which is certainly not likely. That said, I would generally be skeptical of the idea that Jews in particular are much likelier to be endangered in Indonesia than other people who are recognizably non-Muslim foreigners, but that doesn't mean there is no antisemitism among the public there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2025 (UTC)
- Feel free if you think I should add that “some Islamic institutions in Indonesia are anti-semitic” or remove the “Nazi phrase”. Since its not possible to generalize Indonesian Muslims saying most of them as anti-semitic, I believe saying “some or certain Islamic institutions in Indonesia” are anti-semitic would be the more correct phrase. Pineapplethen (talk) 02:19, 23 July 2025 (UTC)
- I won't remove the text about Nazi enthusiasts if it's true. Feel free to make the edit you mention, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 23 July 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve never heard there were “Nazi enthusiasists” in Indonesia. What was possible was, the 2 dictatorship before reformation of 1998, might follow Nazi-styled rhetorics, but even they never formally claimed to be “Nazi symphatizers.” Anti-Zionism is what usually common in Indonesia. Since Jews comprise only 0.0001%, there aren’t anti-semitism in practice. What is true though, many Islamic institutions are in fact anti-semitic like MUI or certain people in Friday prayer sermons but not the majority of Indonesia or the vast majority of Indonesian Muslims that hold this view. Pineapplethen (talk) 01:21, 23 July 2025 (UTC)
- User:Pineapplethen, a penny for your thoughts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
- I see that the mention of antisemitism was removed, but I question that because there are Nazi enthusiasts in Indonesia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2025 (UTC)