Talk:M'Hamid Voyage Tips and guide

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What makes it more legendary than any other hotel in MHamid? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 10:42, 19 November 2006 (EST)

In the meanwhile, I removed Legendary from the article--but still I'd be happy if you tell what makes it legendary. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 18:42, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Will you stop nitpicking other people's descriptions if you have no personal experience of the place? The single word "legendary" usually means that the place is well-known in the backpacker community, and is a pretty good guarantee that it's decent. If you remove it, and just call it "friendly", this is lost. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:42, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Isn't Wikivoyage all about open discussion and consensus? What's wrong about asking a question that (in my belief) can clarify a listing? It was not obvious for me that legendary means exactly that (and it furthermore refers to backpacker community--how a reader is supposed to guess about that?)

I left a question 2 months ago, both here and on user's talk page. In 2 months, I get no answer. After getting no answer, I removed that piece from the article--following Maj's recommendation on dubious content:

if you doubt something, pull it out to the talk page.

Legendary has nothing to do with personal experience with a place per se--it's only about reputation, about place being famous etc. Do you mean that I should not try to improve any other's text? Otherwise, how would you recommend to resolve cases like this? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:20, 27 January 2007 (EST)

If you have reason to doubt the description, then go ahead and pull it out — but what is your reason to doubt that the gulyas in Rab Raby is worth trying, or that the Hotel Sahara is not well known in M'Hamid? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:45, 27 January 2007 (EST)

I've been in MHamid and participated in finding accommodation for our travel--but heard nothing legendary-like about Sahara. OK, it may be popular with backpackers (which sounds much clearer), or even legendary well-known among back-packers.

In general, I believe we should avoid characteristics like Legendary if we give no reasoning or details--it will help a reader understand what exactly is meant (again, legendary can have too much readings), and it helps to distinguish tout-style listings from real experience-based.

As for Rab Ráby, I already gave my reasons for asking:

gulyas is probably the most typical and frequently served dish in Hungary--so recommending gulyas at a particular restaurant should have a strong reason

You answered a question, I updated the article and now it's bit more clear. But what's wrong about it? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:18, 27 January 2007 (EST)

In a nutshell, I am trying to make these two pieces more helpful for a traveller choosing a place to eat in Szentendre or a place to stay in MHamid. I believe that changes I make and discussions I initiate move us a bit in this direction. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 07:56, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Let me see how I can best express this. I went to Rab Raby in Szentendre, ate the gulyas and thought it was good enough to record in Wikivoyage when I created the article a few years later. And when you went and removed this recommendation without what I would consider good reason (eg. ordering the gulyas yourself and finding that it's full of cockroaches), I was somewhat offended.

A fundamental Wiki principle is Assume Good Faith: if somebody adds information ("Try the gulyas"), the default assumption is that it's a valid recommendation (= the goulash is good). I see no reason for you to assume that this is "dubious", and it's certainly not the kind of important info that warrants pulling out until "verification" (by who, the Central Goulash Committee?). (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:17, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Ever heard of the Ketchup Advisory Board? I know, that comment is off-topic. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 16:00, 28 January 2007 (EST)

First of all, I never deleted the "Try the gulyas" phrase, not I marked it for verification--I only asked a question on details of this on a talk page. I don't see any bad in asking for clarifications.

Second, I acted from a typical traveller's point of view. I already spent several days in Hungary when I read the Szentendre article, and this phrase gave me no added information. It looked like this was the first (and the only) Hungarian restaurant author visited, and yes, he liked gulyas there. But it's like writing "try pasta" for a restaurant in Italy, or "try tajine" for a cafe in Morocco, or "try sushi" for a sushi bar in Japan.

This is why the following update sounds much better, and in my opinion it's much more helpful and useful compared to original version: "Gulyas soup is what the restaurant is most famous for, and it's served in a funky manner". Would you mind if we update Rab Raby with this edition? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:59, 28 January 2007 (EST)

As for Hotel Sahara: can we be certain that "well-known among back-packers" is true, I mean it is really well-known and it's really most popular among back-packers? I'm still willing to improve the vague Legendary--but I want to be sure the improved version is still true. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:03, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Ping ;-) --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:01, 29 January 2007 (EST)

(WT-en) Jpatokal, did you revert the whole set of my changes intentionally for some reason, or it was merely an attempt to undelete the Legendary word (which was affected only in my last edit)? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:27, 27 January 2007 (EST)

My mistake, I only meant to revert the last edit. Apologies. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:17, 28 January 2007 (EST)

I do not know the area, so I'm reluctant to do major edits. Asking here instead.

Dar Sidi Bonou is listed under Do/trips, under Eat, and under Sleep. I think it should only be listed once, under Sleep, with mention of the other services.

Normal policy is not to list booking agents, only actual tour providers. Should "Sahara Services" and perhaps others be removed because of that policy? Also, "Sahara Best Travel" is based in Marrakesh so I'd say list it only there. (WT-en) Pashley 00:09, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

Sidi Bonou: support.

Sahara Services: originally it had "Chiri Biri" as an sub-item; I will find a way to fix it. But as long as we don't have contacts for the latter, I don't think we'll add value by removing Sahara Services (which is listed in LP, btw). --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:59, 29 September 2009 (EDT)

There is an entire category of "Camel trips and 4x4" in this article, so on what basis would listings be deleted under the Wikivoyage tour policy, rather than for violating policies like "Don't tout" or putting up incomplete listings w/o rates, etc.? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:11, 19 August 2011 (EDT)

I gave a wrong link in edit summary. Please read Tour#Tour_listings instead. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:33, 19 August 2011 (EDT)

I think that still could use some clarification, in an article with many tour listings, indeed. What criteria do you think we should use in judging the appropriateness or inappropriateness of tour listings in this article? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:19, 19 August 2011 (EDT)

The article currently seems to be presenting a heavy bias toward the listing of Camel trips and 4x4 providers, and to a lesser extent; 'Quad bikes and buggies". If possible it would be good if we could determine if this really is the overwhelmingly dominant touristic endeavour or offering of this destinatioon, or if the article has just been hijacked by this focus and has become a venue for the promotion of camel and 4x4 trips. A little like say jetski operators or surf board hire operators dominating a destination article whilst it is in reality just one of many things to do at a beach. Reading a few blogs and travel reviews on the location it seems that the article hijack speculation may have some context. When reading some of the promotional blurb of local accom providers and some TA reviews it does appear the area has other things going for it and it is not solely a desert trek departure point as seems to be projected in the article. http://www.moxon.net/morocco/draa_valley.html gives a blow through account of the town. When looking at the information provided by tour operators it appears that the better 'dunes' are a 2-3 day trip away, therefore somewhat supporting the desert gateway theme that is projected. As I have not seen it with my own eyes it is hard to tell if people just travel 2-3 days to see someone elses dunes. I have travelled a lot in deserts composed of sand dunes and though there is some subtle variety a large mountain of sand in one place tends to look much the same as in another unless there is something very different sitting right next to it. It seems the place is more symbolic as where the asphalt road ends. It does appear that the destination offers access to a desert dune environment that requires a 4x4 vehicle and some desert navigational experience. The location apparently has some quite enthusiastic touts that underline this to any traveller that ventures there. If so then maybe this qualifies the operators in the context of 'something a traveler cannot normally do on their own'. I have set off into several deserts on my own or in company with others. I needed no guide, then again I have a lot of experience in deserts and would not recommend that to others unless they had the same sort of knowledge. The average traveller does not. In regard to criteria for listing an operator I would think that at a minimum they must have a local base of operations, provide vehicles, and provide tour support staff, a guide and support equipment. If they are booking or 'packaging' then they will be self disqualifying under the normal guidelines. I offer the following review of the existing listings for consideration. -- (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• I have since done an article wide clean-up and reviewed such things as general formatting and applied some mild copy edits, the tour providers remain essentially as before, as this is being discussed here, but they had a minor tidy up. If any are to be removed I think Safari, as they are an obvious re-seller and remain the most obvious to be deleted. -- (WT-en) felix 12:36, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Cynab Voyages" email="[email protected]" phone="+212 524 43-69-56" url="http://www.cynabvoyages.com" hours="" price=""> Cynab Voyages is a family-owned Moroccan-American tour operator based in Marrakech with over 20 years of experience. The company uses only local guides with a love for their country and a knack for making travelers feel at home. Every guide speaks Arabic, Amazigh, French, and English. While offering standard packages, itineraries are often tailored to travellers’ particular interests.</do>

• Comments: based in Marrakech no local address provided.
• Remove, should list in Marrakech unless they have a local base or office, however are we assisting the article by removing it?. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="ZbarTravel" alt="" address="M'Hamid Centre" directions="next to Hotel El Ghizlane" phone="+212 668 51-72-80" url="http://www.zbartravel.com" hours="" price="" lat="" long="" 68="68" 51="51" 72="72" fax=""> A friendly and family-run desert travel business providing work for local people. Offers many different types of desert tours according to budget and client requirements/capabilities from 4x4 excursions, walking tours, camel treks, bivouac camps and sandboarding - short and long duration. Excellent knowledge of local area and with office in Ouarzazate for arranging other Moroccan itineraries.</do>

• Comments: apparently based in M'Hamid, but sounds like they might be a travel service offering a booking service, however as indistinct maybe it should be assumed they are offering treks and tours.
• Retain. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Marhba au Sahara" url=http://www.marhba-au-sahara.com">A small family company offering tours and excursions both by 4x4 and camel through Southern Morocco and the desert. The prices include all meals, overnight stays, guide, transport and all visits.</do>

• Comments, sounds like might be a genuine local provider of tours. However there are no contact details, location unknown.
• Remove unless contact details are provided and location determined, maybe they are quite apparent in the town. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="M'hamid Voyages" url="http://www.mhamidvoyages.com" address="Centre M'Hamid Elghizlane 47402 , BP : 7 - Zagora" phone="+212 662 78-10-72">Two very friendly guides offering camel treks and 4x4 Tours.</do>

• Comments: apparently based in M'Hamid. They self describe as "guides" but it is clarified they are providing "treks and tours".
• Retain, but consider if it should be moved to the Zagora article, that town is back up the road toward Marrakech. Their website describes tours "departing from M'Hamid". (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Dar sidi bounou" url="http://www.darsidibounou.com"> A small kasbah owned and operated by a Canadian Artist Nancy with her Berber husband Daoud. Where people can spend a night and trek to the desert in overnight trips both by camel and 4x4.</do>

• Comments: URL provided, no address no tel number. Apparently situated 4 km before M'Haamid at Dar sidi Bounou. Their website describes them as an accom provider "A traditional daub house in a palmerie garden near the Saharan dunes at Bounou". They have an 'Activities' section on their website, it describes local cultural activities, yoga and offers"exotic Berber Style Marriage Celebrations" amongst other things, maybe they are listed in the wrong section. They had three listings in the article, on in Sleep, one in Eat and the other in this tours sub-section.
• Removed to Sleep on 22 dec 2011. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Sahara Services" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="+212 (0) 661-77-67-66" url="http://www.saharaservices.info" hours="" price="" lat="" long=""> A customer-end intermediary for desert trips (both camel and 4x4) that is well connected with most of the local providers (and individual guides/car-owners?), but also seem to receive a huge part of price you pay. Don't confuse with many outlets in MHamid that also have a Sahara Services sign--use [1] as a reference or just call them.</do>

• Comments: apparently based in M'Hamid. Offering "customer-end intermediary" services, this appears to be twisted language describing a 'booking service or packager'.
• Remove, it is also apparent from detail in other listings that Safari Services contract their tours to the actual tour providers, therefore they are a 'booking' service or re-seller. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Naims Terrific Travel Services" phone="+212 666 05-20-02"> A small but friendly travel service who can arrange guided, personalised tours of the whole of Morocco but specialize in the Saharan region. Small group tours staying and eating in local private houses a possibility.</do>

• Comments: "apparently a tour booking service based in M'Hamid.
• Remove unless clear they are offering actual trip services, however are we assisting the article by such a removal?. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Caravane Targala" alt="Caravane Terguala" phone="+212 667 84-31-36 / 662-78-10-85"> contact Razgui Mohamed. One of operators that does perform the trips for Chiri Biri and Sahara Services intermediaries. Operates 2-, 5- and 7-day tours.</do>

• Comments: possibly based in M'Hamid, but lacking an address, described as though they are a freelance or contract guide. It sounds like this is an actual operator offering both 'contact' services and also independent direct to customer services, and is possibly locally based.
• Retain. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Driss Aventures" phone="+212 672 48-16-60">A very experienced licensed Moroccan guide with a great sense of humour from M'Hamid with an agency in Ouarzazate. Tailor-made trips for one or several days, trekking with camels or stays in bivouacs. Combination of trips to desert with other sights on the road to the desert, including exquisite cuisine and possibility to experience home visits for food & tea time. Contact Driss Himoud</do>

• Comments: apparently based in M'Hamid, but described as though they are a freelance or contract guide. It sounds like this is an actual operator offering both 'contact' services and also independent direct to customer services, and is locally based.
• Retain. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

• <do name="Mhamidtravel" email="[email protected]" phone="+212 668 16-79-18"> Experience biovacing in the ancient sand dunes of Chgaga, camel trip to the back desert of Hmada and Dravali, see the history of this area with your own senses, meet the friendly Bedouin and learn their customs. Find all of these experiences plus the knowledge of the Tuareg, Mohammed Sbai as your experienced guide.</do>
• Comments: apparently based in M'Hamid, but described as though they are a freelance or contract guide. It sounds like this is an independent guide, possibly self -disqualifying, however as indistinct maybe it should be assumed they are offering treks and tours.

• Retain. (WT-en) felix 07:54, 21 December 2011 (EST)

I really appreciate your remarks, Felix, and I agree with most of them. One question I'd have, though, is if we move Cynar's listing to Marrakech, and they're based there but do trekking in the M'Hamid area, is Marrakech really the best place to list them? Then again, that's not our problem; the provider, who originally listed in numerous articles about desert towns in Morocco, should make their own arguments, within the limits of Wikivoyage guidelines. I'd also say that I doubt we'd harm this article by removing the entries you point to, since there are so many entries in this guide. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:34, 21 December 2011 (EST)

Totally agree with your comments on Cynar's listing. If Cynar are of some value to the M'Hamid article then better to list there as a listing in Marrakech may be of limited value to the Marrakech article and a bit to lost to be of use to travellers to M'Hamid. Then again maybe it is a service to visitors to Marrakech letting them know of someone there they can go and see about a trip to M'Hamid. I think you are right in the suggestion that it may be best to just follow policy and let Cynar make their case, if they are active here. -- cheers-- (WT-en) felix 05:00, 22 December 2011 (EST)

Based on Cynab's current description, which never mentions M'Hamid, I have removed their listing. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:08, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Swept in from the pub.

I'd still like help with the Pedasi listing, but I hope some of you can help with this larger problem. There's a new spammer, who says they are a "legitimate and licensed organization offering desert tours to Zagora" but is posting all over the place, with no street address but "based in Marrakech." I thought I had posted to 41.250.186.13's Talk page, but I see no evidence of that (I must have closed the tab before hitting "Enter") and have to get some sleep. Here are the anonymous user's [[2]]. I've been deleting them all, but I'm unsure what to do in the M'Hamid guide, because there are so many tours listed. What standard do we want to use? Local addresses only? Thanks in advance for helping. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:54, 19 December 2011 (EST)

I removed them again. Local addresses only is the starting point, I think. --(WT-en) Inas 22:34, 20 December 2011 (EST)

Thank you, Inas. The thing is, for some desert locations, we have been allowing non-touty trekking operators, provided that they have an office in the town in question. I was going to provide [[3]] as a good example, but I see that not a single listing has a street address listed. But then again, I don't know if there are street addresses in Wadi Rum. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:58, 21 December 2011 (EST)

Yeah - it is going to be a judgement call in a place like this, and we probably aren't going to get it exactly right. However a couple were clearly travel agents with no guiding capacity, and I think that is still preferable to list operators when we can. --(WT-en) Inas 06:48, 21 December 2011 (EST)