Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!
our state library some ten or twenty years ago used to have a music listening area (long gone now), and on the notice boards were fliers for feldrenkrais and alexander technique practitioners with their intent to attract musicians requiring attention. JarrahTree (talk) 09:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
oh dear the SUL work around failed for a while, it is like dancing with a drunken cat, I think I have found a way in again...
I am not sure I have really got a handle on the lengthy discussion as an Australian reading the talk page at the Australia article, maybe I would not be much help, as a 60+ native born west australian, some of the assertions look like crap -give me walk in Manhattan, or Ceduna anytime than offering generalisations about Australian transitions in culture in the last 50 years... Trust all is well. The more I think about that lengthy discussion, I am trying to prevent myself from adding anything further sigh.... JarrahTree (talk) 07:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
BTW my apologies - I had not given a link to the background info on what I call SUL - probably more correctly called Unified login...
Latest comment: 10 months ago10 comments4 people in discussion
I'm a veteran Wikimedia editor but new to Wikivoyage. Can you explain why it is difficult to link recent Wikimedia Commons files on Wikivoyage? Thanks, Buaidh (talk) 03:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
If it is, that's something new to me. Have you been using double square brackets and putting the filename inside? For example: [[File:Filename|thumb|Caption]] Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
In that case one should see a deletion log entry or something (the filename doesn't hint on anything that could have been censored). It isn't on Wikipedia in English either. –LPfi (talk) 20:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
The reason why the example above produces a redlink is because the file name is misspelled (the correct file name starts with "Olde" like in the link, not just "Old"). --Ypsilon (talk) 05:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you feel it's necessary, go ahead, but I'd couch it as ttcf and Be fair#Political disputes. The main point is that Wikivoyage doesn't seek to score political points but does provide information people who may be traveling somewhere should know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 months ago14 comments6 people in discussion
Admittedly, we wouldn't know for sure how the population thinks now, but if you look at electoral maps of Ukraine prior to Euromaidan in 2014, the eastern and southern provinces of Ukraine (including Crimea), which were mostly Russian-speaking, mostly voted for pro-Russia candidates, while the central and western provinces, which are mostly Ukrainian-speaking, mostly voted for pro-US/EU candidates. It was covered in this lecture by University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer, who is quite well-known in political science circles as one of America's foremost geopolitical scholars today. The dog2 (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Mearsheimer is now considered to hold fringe views on Ukraine, but this just highlights how we should avoid getting trapped in these discussions. If it is controversial, let's avoid the discussion and focus on travel information. Wikivoyage does not need to take a stand on these issues. Readers should get their information on this sort thing from better sources than a travel guide. Ground Zero (talk) 21:15, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
The other thing is that every region of Ukraine voted for independence in 1991, though by a lower percentage and with more absenteeism in Crimea than in other regions. It's a fallacy that being Russian-speaking equates to wanting to be part of Russia. Odesa and Kharkiv are or at least were Russian-speaking until they were repeatedly bombed. What do you think most of their inhabitants think about Russia now? But Ground Zero really has the best response. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is a bit of a tangent, and I am in no way suggesting that we include any of this in any of our articles, but Mearsheimer's views may not be as fringe as you think. According to opinion polls, less than 30% of Americans are in favour of sending American troops into Ukraine to fight the Russians, but more than 50% of Americans are in favour of sending American troops to Taiwan to fight the Chinese should war break out there. And Nikki Haley has in fact promised that if she gets elected president, her first order of business will be to go war with China. The dog2 (talk) 00:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Cite the opinion poll and provide the wording of the questions. Also, Haley will not be elected, but come on, she said she'll attack China on Day 1 in the alternate universe in which she won? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Here's an article citing one of those polls: [1]. In this particular one, it shows that 60% of the American public support U.S. military intervention in Taiwan. The dog2 (talk) 02:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. Their methodology seems problematic:
"To obtain the sample, YouGov used a sample matching approach to recruit respondents and generate a
representative sample of the American population.
YouGov sample is generated through an opt-in survey panel, composed of approximately 1 million US residents
who agreed to participate in YouGov’s Web surveys. Panel members are recruited using multiple methods to help
ensure diversity in the panel population. Recruiting methods include Web advertising campaigns (public surveys),
permission-based email campaigns, partner-sponsored solicitations, SMS-to-Web recruitment (voter registration-
based sampling). YouGov invites panel members by email and/or SMS, depending on how the panelist has opted to
be contacted. All invited respondents opted-in to receive survey invitations from YouGov.
To recruit a representative sample, YouGov recruited panelists to this survey by their previously provided answers
to YouGov profile questions. At the recruitment stage respondents were invited based on their fit to interlocking
variables of (gender x race x age x education). To match survey participants to the YouGov population frame, more
interviews than needed are collected. The final sample of respondents to this survey were matched to a more
complete population frame, selecting the closest matches to the population. Completed interviews were weighted to
the sampling frame using propensity scores. Population weights were normalized to equal sample size."
I have no idea how reliable their results are. I'm very skeptical that 50-60% of Americans want U.S. troops to die in the defense of Taiwan, which is not to say that I oppose a U.S. commitment to help Taiwan defend itself. Also, you just can't rely on a single poll for anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
As web surveys are much less expensive than phone or snailmail ones, and you probably get high response rates from opt-in panels, an approach like this is common. By comparing sample profile statistics with population statistics, one can test for bias, although not necessarily reliably.
Extending this to giving more weight to answers from people from groups under-represented in the sample (or choosing a sub-sample with a less biased profile) lessens the bias in the profiles, and is a commonly used strategy.
However, there is no guarantee that a person from an under-represented category represents all the category well. What about Democrats reached through Trump's X feed? Democrats are certainly under-represented there, but giving greater weight to such odd Democrats might give worse results than not using such weights and just have fewer Democrats in the sample (and admitting the sample isn't representative of the population at large).
Mostly the survey institutes try their best to get good samples, but there are no statistic measures that can test the biases introduced by the sampling methods (other than indirectly by comparing survey results with similar surveys with a better sample, or by comparing relevant variables in the original sample with those of the general population).
Here, they tried to get a "better diversity" (essentially less bias, I assume) by using different methods of recruitment. Adding a bad method to the other ones can give more diversity, but might increase the bias. For the several-methods approach to work, you need methods that complement each other. I don't know whether web advertising campaigns and permission-based email campaigns reach different-enough populations to motivate not just using the better one. I hope those responsible did test the profiles of these different populations to be able to conclude they got a better sample this way (that's up to their professionalism, both in skill and in wish for correct results, especially as commercial survey institutes seldom publish a thorough discussion on their methodologies). Anyway, I assume any opt-in panel will include more extremists than an unbiased sample. –LPfi (talk) 12:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
An opt-in panel is likely to bias results in that their opinions may well be different from everyone who would refuse to participate, regardless of any other demographics. That's a big problem in polling now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
My understanding is that the reason why most Americans oppose sending U.S. troops into Ukraine to fight the Russians is because of fear over nuclear escalation, given that Russia has the most number of nukes in the world. I wonder if the average American is aware that China also has nukes, albeit about only one tenth the number that the U.S. and Russia have. After all, a war between the U.S. and China over Taiwan is very likely to go nuclear, especially if China manages to sink an aircraft carrier, and the American people start calling for Chinese blood to avenge the deaths of their soldiers. And not to mention, such a war is also very likely to escalate into World War III, given that Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, India, Canada, Australia, the UK, New Zealand, France, Germany and Italy are all likely to join the Americans in fighting for Taiwan. If the poll numbers are accurate, perhaps it reflects that the average citizen in Middle America thinks of China as a backward country that the U.S. military can easily overwhelm, and isn't aware that China could potentially destroy New York City and Los Angeles with their nukes, and all those other countries that join the American-led coalition might see their cities get nuked too. The dog2 (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Again, quite apart from methodological issues with this poll, basing anything on a single poll is senseless. Yet you are engaging in flights of fancy. I don't think the Chinese dictator is any more interested in getting his country nuked than Putin is. Can we please end this discussion? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I just happened to make my 80,000th edit today – have to say, thank you for being a great mentor to me over the past 3 years on Wikivoyage. I don't think I'd have been this passionate for Wikivoyage had I not had a mentor like you. Thank you again, Ikan. (side note: surely I'm not the only one to find this wild – have I really hit the edit button that much?) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta)11:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Glad I've been helpful. I have mixed feelings about how much time I spend editing sites that don't pay me for my work. But I do it because I enjoy it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
To answer your question, your passport lists your place of birth, so that is a hint. The way Indian legislation is worded is a little ambiguous. Have a look at this document for an example. Presumably, that means that someone who was born a Chinese citizen, but later immigrated to the U.S. and obtained U.S. citizenship is not eligible to obtain the permit in question, while a U.S. citizen with no connection to China whatsoever is. I'm not sure how it affects say, a third generation Malaysian of Chinese descent. The dog2 (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 months ago4 comments2 people in discussion
I think you might want to remove "I will be away from January 9-17, 2023 and might not be reachable quickly on some of those days.", because it's definitely well past January 2023! ;-) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta)03:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion
As I was saying, how great that you are enjoying your time in the awesome big city, "poor but sexy", great metro system, great sights. I most often have stayed close to Hermannstraße and Tempelhof Park in Neukolln, and Prezlauer Berg once, but it's all really nice and full of history, the Berliner Schloß and its metro station must be fully finished now. Happy voyages in good old Europe. Ibaman (talk) 00:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you! I've had a good time so far. I just got here from Munich 2 days ago. Munich is so much more diverse than it was 10 years ago, though it was already pretty diverse then. There are way more Arabs, and we had some fantastic Arab food our last night there. I did my own seder today with my partner, 2 of our friends and 1 of hers whom I hadn't met before. I was the only Jew at the seder, and we all had a wonderful time. I got some of my best ingredients, including 2 small chickens, from the local Turkish supermarket. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Haha, yeah, I came back on the 11th. It was great, though we were rained out with a storm on one of the days (we took retreat inside the car that day), but an experience worth it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta)11:23, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion
I was a bit surprised to see you revert a recent edit of mine on the London/South page: first, the link was not to Wikipedia but to Wiktionary; second, the page explicitly does not comply with the policy you mentioned in saying (and I quote) "look it up!". The reason I added the link was annoyance at this unhelpful parenthetical. Is this how the policy is meant to be implemented? QuartierLatin1968 (talk) 21:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
To quote from the beginning of Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia: "Wikivoyage articles should be as complete as possible in and of themselves. Essential information about a topic should be included in the Wikivoyage article, rather than relying on a link to Wikipedia." So if you want to add information, please add it, and cite your source in an edit summary. It's completely fine to paraphrase, or if necessary, quote from another Wikimedia site, as long as you cite your source in an edit summary or note on the article's talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, but the operative word in what you quoted was "Wikipedia", surely? The Wikivoyage article is not more "complete as possible" the way it's been left now; all it wanted was a definition. Well, I suppose there's no point arguing over it. QuartierLatin1968 (talk) 15:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
WV:Goals and non-goals: we don't want to be, or read like, an encyclopaedia or dictionary. WV:External links#What not to link to: "We also do not provide links to source information or provide references—travel guides do not use footnotes! If a source looks like it could be of use to subsequent editors of a guide, or if some information you add appears suspect, mention it (or link to it) on the talk page – not in the article itself." There's also WV:IL#Don't overlink. We like to keep this travel guide very clean, indeed. Ibaman (talk) 16:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey Ikan (cc Ground Zero as you might also find this useful – I'm just too lazy to post this twice :P), I'm sure you are now aware of Earwig's Copyvio Tool which was the tool I used on Talk:Tokyo/Ueno, which is far better and more accurate than trying to search for copyvios manually (even more so when you enable Turnitin). But, I am perfectly aware that it, along with a plethora of a thousand other links, can easily get lost in your bookmarks bar.
To overcome this, I use a gadget called MoreMenu (relevant documentation on Meta). In short, it adds far more options in the top right-hand corner of a page (these things) that you'd get on the default menu (ignore the "More" and "TW" in the screenshot – those are additional gadgets I've installed) and there's a button that gives a link to the copyvio tool (Page > Analysis). Installing the gadget is very easy, just add the following text to m:User:Ikan Kekek/global.js, and you should be set.
I can revert the latest change by going into the article history (it's not so obvious that an icon that looks like a revert icon actually pulls up the history, but I figured that out), selecting the current and immediately previous change, clicking "compare changes" or something similar, and then reverting the latest change, but I couldn't see a button for reverting a change made like 4 changes ago when I performed the same procedures up to comparing two versions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Probably not USD, might be Argentinian pesos because Puerto Iguazú is on the Argentinian side of the falls. But the author should really specify what currency it is.
Surprisingly many currencies in the Western Hemisphere use $ as their symbol. In addition, for large purchases (home electronics, cars etc.), and services aimed at tourists, prices are often in US dollars. Ypsilon (talk) 05:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 months ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Ikan, thanks for your edit here, but I admit I'm not quite clear what the intent is. Was the existing text somehow misleading about the ability to smoke on the street in NYC? I don't think NYC is unique in allowing smoking on public streets. Powers(talk)13:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
If there are other cities in the state where it's legal to smoke pot on the streets, why are we telling people to reserve it for wide open spaces? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not being from NYC I consider streets to be fairly open spaces. =) I was also taking into account consideration for fellow pedestrians in suggesting plenty of space for smoking. Still, I'm open to other wording; I'm not well versed in this area and would appreciate a suggestion for how to describe where consumption is allowed. Powers(talk)01:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 months ago23 comments2 people in discussion
Not sure if you remember Taoheedah a while back, who we warned for copyvios. They're now running for the U4C special election, and I queried them about their copyvios + poor communication skills. Just putting it out there since you were also involved and in case if you want to add anything to the questions page. --SHB2000 (t | c | m)02:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. I think I'll see how she responds to your question.
I can't even post to Meta. The reason is: "Block will expire in 2 years
Reason
There are multiple blocks against your account and/or IP address" Why? Because I refuse to disable the security feature on my iPhone, and whoever wants me to can go fuck themselves, as far as I'm concerned. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I gave you IPBE, so you should be good now – unfortunately, that security feature has been abused by countless LTAs. SHB2000 (t | c | m)04:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. My position is someone who is a user in good standing should be able to use any standard security feature of any browser. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm of the same belief and so is the general Wikimedia community, the only issue is that there isn't any way to distinguish who is in good-standing (unless they're an admin, which is how I'm able to get past that block on Meta), and this has unfortunately been abused countless times by numerous LTAs (to evade blocks).
Since this isn't a Meta specific thing, I'd recommend requesting global IP block exemption on m:SRIPBE, which would help you get past global range blocks on any wiki (including Commons, unless the IP is also blocked locally) as you have a valid-use case of it. It's what most zh users (barring zhwiki, which often also locally blocks proxies) do to get past using a VPN since Wikipedia (and some sister sites) are blocked in China. The only reason you can get by here is because you're an admin. It's not ideal, but it's also the best that can be done for now. --SHB2000 (t | c | m)08:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
It seems to me, someone who is autopatrolled on at least one wiki should be presumed to be a good-faith Wikimedian, unless demonstrated otherwise. I'm not really inclined to seek a global block exemption as some kind of unusual special privilege. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
The issue is there isn't any way to automatically check if a user is autopatrolled on at least one medium-sized wiki (small wikis are debatable), at least not without using an external tool (which can't do anything on-wiki) – which is why I'd recommend requesting GIPBE since as things currently stand, it can only be done manually. --SHB2000 (t | c | m)03:48, 29 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Fair enough – one thing, though, the m:Community Wishlist is open right now, so if you do want to suggest a feature that would automatically handle IPBE, please do make one. (I made a request already so not sure if me making a second one would come out well). --SHB2000 (t | c | m)10:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Indeed; they've been an amazing mentor to me especially since becoming an admin on Meta. I still find it odd that the minimum percentage required is around 60 per cent and not something more reasonable like 50 or 55 per cent. --SHB2000 (t | c | m)09:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I mean that's fair, there's not usually much of a reason to be active on Meta in the case for most users – I only became one in May this year purely to give an extra helping hand for more of the janitorial side of things. --SHB2000 (t | c | m)11:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 months ago19 comments4 people in discussion
Hello!
I'm working on one of the wanted categories, but am unable to edit your userpage yet (my home wiki is commons) can you add the category "Bureaucrats of the English Wikivoyage" to your userpage?
Thanks!
OK, but I already tell people on the user page what my status is. I'm not understanding why it was necessary or important to create the category in the first place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
This cat was added to "requests for catagories". The reason it didnt exist before was only SHB used the 'crat userbox. (if you look at my userpage on wikimedia commons, you can see that my page is in several usergroup catagories. to answer the category separation problem, Hidden/Noindex tags should do the trick, assuming they are implemented here. Sorry for the long response time!
Sorry for not being clear. Special:WantedCategories had the cat on the list, and so I started going about getting the 4 crat userpages in this catagory. After some research, I found that the crat userbox had tried to add SHB's userpage when he added the crat box. Because the catagory didn't exist, MediaWiki added it to the list. I hope this clears everything up.
Latest comment: 4 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hello,
I saw your edit summary on Royal Tunbridge Wells: "But does anyplace serve fake ale?". In the UK, Real Ale refers to unpasteurized, unfiltered ale, served without added carbon dioxide. Some beer enthusiasts would say that mass produced keg or can beer from the biggest breweries is "fake ale"! AlasdairW (talk) 20:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
First, if it is useful, please re-add it. In terms of the links, the second one is unusable to me, as I'm spending way too much time with its stupid sliders to prove I'm not a robot. I don't know whether the first link is usable per what not to link to. It's a cool site, though! What do you think, after reading that link? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
it seemed to me that the information about the position of the ship was interesting. But I don't insist that it's important. Kolpaky (talk) 09:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Apropos "It's too tiring to delete all the fax fields": no need to do that en masse by hand. The listing editor removes empty fax fields when used on a listing, which will have the same effect by time. Using global search and replace would cause flooding of watchlists; the empty fax field does no harm (removing the fields saves a few bytes, but an unnecessary edit consumes many more, and text is negligible anyway compared to images etc.). –LPfi (talk) 08:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK. I might have got confused by some recent minor edit on the same page, which happens to me every now and then. I don't find the page now. –LPfi (talk) 07:24, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for letting me know, but you can merge and redirect articles, too. It's not my job; I just do it sometimes. Could you take care of it this time? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 month ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Board of Directors Elections 2024
Dear valued member of our group, we are pleased to extend an invitation for you to consider presenting your candidacy for one of the three available seats on the Board of Directors. This board plays a vital role in overseeing the group’s work and administration, making it one of the three key components of our organization. If you would like to register as a candidate, please use the following link.
We kindly suggest that candidates consider being available for Board of Directors activities for approximately six to twenty-four hours each year.
We would be delighted to welcome volunteers from other Wikimedia projects, such as Wikivoyage, Wikiquote, Wiktionary, and Wikisource, to consider applying as candidates.
While proficiency in Spanish is not required, we can arrange for interpreters to assist if needed.
We are pleased to inform you that receiving this message confirms your eligibility to offer your candidacy to the Board of Directors. If you currently hold other leadership positions, such as serving on the boards of directors of chapters or thematic organizations, or as one of the three leaders of user groups, we kindly request that a declaration of conflict of interest be provided.
We certainly had to put translations on the page to allow others who do not know Spanish to participate and this is something to improve. On the other hand, it is not necessary to speak Spanish since Spanish-English interpreters can be provided if necessary (meetings are bi-monthly so it makes finding interpreters much easier). Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy)01:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion
For continuing to review my student articles. Sometimes your effort is wasted, for which I apologize, but sometimes the students pay attention. Thank you for not giving up (for me, it is a job... :P). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 03:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 month ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Unrelated to anything Wikivoyage, but I've been following the results of what's been happening up there, nervously where things aren't looking the best as of typing this message (standing at 113-220). If things aren't going the best, I don't have much else to say other than wishing all doesn't go too bad as it did 8 years back. Goodness sometimes I hate the timeline we're living in... --SHB2000 (t | c | m)03:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, I didn't see any mention of the reason for removing it in the article history. I won't have time to try cropping it to the right dimensions today, in all likelihood, and probably not tomorrow or Sunday, either. I have yet to try to crop a banner to the right dimensions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. If his banner is of the right dimensions, though, it's better in that respect than the banner I restored. But they had to make that argument. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, I used the croptool. It wasn't very hard, but its results are not yet viewable to me on the Penglai page, and I'm unsure how good the result is, since I had to crop out so much of the picture. I guess someone could try reducing the size of the image and then cropping that, to get more of it in the pagebanner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, you used te croptool, but the very first time you use it, the overwrite option is active, and it is almost always better to choose option "upload as new file". Because now the original file does not exist anymore (but can be restored). FredTC (talk) 05:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 18 days ago27 comments4 people in discussion
Hey, I think you tend to be pretty visualy inclined, so I'd like to direct your attention to this discussion. TL;DR Wauteurz has created a modification for the new Vector2022 skin. I think your feedback on it would be really valuable. The only way to preview it now is sort-of un-fun, but I'll try my best:
Now all pages should be using Wauteurz's proposed tweaks (if you have any other WV tabs open within this window, you'll need to refresh those too)
To see the current Vector2022 skin for comparison: open a private browing window (where you will be logged out! Don't edit!) and navigate to Wikivoyage.com. You can switch between this window and the private browing window to see the difference for any given article you navigate to in both windows.
Wauteurz has provided a textual summary of changes here: User talk:Wauteurz/common.css#Summary.
Once you're done, to undo Wauteurz's modifications we added, do this:
Close your private browsing window (where you are logged out)
If there is no content, then create the page and insert those two lines of code, yes. I believe you've mentioned before that you wanted to keep using the legacy Vector no matter what, so in your case it's probably better to instead load the stylesheet into Special:MyPage/vector-2022.css. This then only applies the changes to the Vector 2022 skin. I'll take the liberty of changing Brycehughes's original message with the right links. I assume they don't mind it.
If you were to load it into common.css, there would be the possibility of legacy Vector also breaking for you. This way, you can freely switch between Vector and Vector 2022 by adding ?useskin=vector-2022 into the address bar of any page on this website. Let me know if you need any help. :) ― Wauteurz (talk)11:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ikan Kekek: It doesn't look like you've done anything wrong with the configuration. Under "Appearance" in Special:Preferences, have you enabled Vector 2022 permanently, or are you trying the link extension I mentioned? The thing that comes to mind is that that link extension does typically work for me like that, but it can sometimes have a mind of its own. Forcing the full path instead may work. So, the address for Main page becomes https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=vector-2022, et cetera. You will have to do this for every page you want to visit though, as clicking a link will default back to your skin of choice. Maybe it's just easier overall to temporarily switch to Vector 2022, and switch back when you've had enough. :) ― Wauteurz (talk)23:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
If it's all too much hassle, by the way, then there's now also User talk:Wauteurz/common.css/Comparison, which summarises and visualises the changes I've made. Of course you get the best impression of the changes by trying Vector 2022 with the modifications enabled for a while, but I can also understand it if you'd rather not. That choice is completely up to you. ― Wauteurz (talk)23:38, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Hmmmm...I want to disable Vector 2022 and make things look like the status quo ante. Maybe your fix doesn't do that, and that's why I thought it wasn't working? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
It indeed doesn't do that. My set of changes is made to fix Vector 2022's flaws, and make it presentable on Wikivoyage. It is essentially Vector 2022, variant B.
If you want to return to the skin you were using before the forced change, go to the "Appearance" section in your preference menu, and select "Vector (legacy)" as your skin, assuming you used old Vector.
As a sidenote: Vector 2022 will decide the look of Wikivoyage to most of our readers, possibly for the next decade. I generally don't like interface changes either, but it's in our project's interest that we give it a shot. Hence why Bryce also reached out to you initially. You're a well-known and well-regarded member of this community, so people look to you for insight and opinions. No-one's asking or forcing you to use Vector 2022 long-term, but it's in Wikivoyage's interest that as many people as possible try the skin whilst it's new, and help us fix its shortcomings so that Wikivoyage doesn't get hurt from the change-over. And who knows, you might actually come to like the skin in the process! ― Wauteurz (talk)14:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Understood. So what changes should I notice with your css edits enabled? I feel like the biggest problem is the compression of the page into the middle, which shortchanges the pagebanner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I had a look at the summary. I didn't notice any of the improvements on my computer, which made me think I had to have been doing something wrong, but on the other hand, everything looks normal on my cellphone. I'll check the appearance on the computer again later, when I'm home again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I personally find the watchlist star in the top right of articles a good indication that things are working. If it's yellow/gold, my changes are working correctly. If it's black, then you're on the unmodified version of Vector 2022. The only other thing I can imagine going wrong is that you have your Special:GlobalPreferences set to be a different skin than Vector 2022. In that case, you'll have to go into Special:Preferences, and under "Appearance" switch the "Set a local exception for this global preference" setting to be on, and then select Vector 2022 in the menu above it. ― Wauteurz (talk)18:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
And if that still doesn't work, let me know. I'd be more than happy to find a way where I and either help you resolve this in real-time, or show you the changes in real-time. Granted, all that only applies if you're open to that. :) ― Wauteurz (talk)18:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I tried making a preference of Vector 2022, Custom CSS global and a local exception. I must be doing something wrong, as it's not expanding the page to the left and right the way the old skin did. The star was yellow throughout, but I don't have anything actually on my watch list. I'm sorry I'm so technically ignorant. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ah, I know what's going on now! That isn't a preference setting, but a Vector 2022 setting. Simply open the appearance menu. It's either an icon resembling glasses by your username in the top right of your screen, or a menu pinned to the right sidebar. Within it, choose "Wide" as your width setting. Here you can also choose a smaller or larger font size ("Small" being the size of old Vector), as well as enable a (quite shitty) dark mode. ― Wauteurz (talk)08:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
And RE: the Watchlist star: It's always gold, but if a page is on your watchlist, it's a solid (fully gold) icon. If it's not, it's hollow (golden outline). ― Wauteurz (talk)08:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! Resetting the width to wide is a big improvement compared to "standard." But is there a way to make the wide width standard for all users on this site, with the narrow pages optional? The Vector legacy 2010 is still far superior in terms of width, though, because it lacks a menu on the right margin. It would be great to get rid of that and put everything back onto the left side. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Is "wide" really what one should go for? It makes lines uncomfortably long – I've heard that 47–68 letters per row is optimal for reading (check any book or newspaper), and as people use maximised browser windows and screens are wide, column width needs to be restricted to keep lines near that length. If we make "wide" standard, then our layout should be adapted to that, breaking layout in narrower windows, used for legibility or to save screen real estate. –LPfi (talk) 10:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
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I'll answer all this point by point.
Firstly, I am not aware of a way in which Vector 2022's default appearance settings can be altered, no. I have asked this in the past myself, but much to my annoyance, I've never gotten a reply. I've got my own thoughts on those settings for sure. Part of that is the potential issue of the skin's three modi (mobile width, narrow width and full-screen), which are defined for both wide and 'standard' settings, being tied to an amount of pixels, rather than a certain aspect ratio. I don't have the means to test it, but I fear that the skin doesn't know very well what to do when being used on a 4K monitor. There's no way for me to alter that without rewriting the entire skin.
Second, the menu on the right side can be modified. You should see a 'hide' button on both the tools and appearance menus, as well as the sidebar and TOC on the left. You can make the menu on either side disappear, but you (sadly) cannot define on which side it appears.
RE: @LPfi, it's down to personal preference. I share Ikan's opinion that 'standard' shouldn't be the standard width on your everyday 16:9/16:10 screens, but at the end of the day, it's the user's own choice. If they want, they can switch to the 'wide' setting if they so desire. The appearance menu is available to all readers, logged in or not. -- ― Wauteurz (talk)12:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, good. That's not satisfactory to me as a matter of how this site is presented to users in general, but it would at least satisfy me as a user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I suppose that's life - you can't always get what you want. I'm mostly just annoyed with how all of this transpired, with the skin essentially being forced upon us. Yes, they've announced it well in advance, they might've listened to what we've had to say against the change and about the skin, but did it change anything? Not really. Sure, the skin is more polished now than it was when first announced, but the amount of (relatively simple) fixes it needed still surprised me.
I do think though that anyone, no matter how opposed to the skin they are, can get used to it with time. Though I do also think that the way this all transpired set some bad blood with some resident editors, which doesn't do the skin's acceptance any good. I'm running into that issue as well now that I'm looking for feedback and approval. No-one seems to care much for the skin or effort, which is kinda sad, really. It'll dictate Wikivoyage's look and feel to most readers, after all.
Anyways, one thing I have been meaning to bring up: I do hope to push the most essential changesets in about a week and a half or so, but I currently do not have the right permissions to change MediaWiki:vector-2022.css. Is there any chance of me (temporarily) gaining the rights to that and if so, how would I go about obtaining them? Or would I have to enlist another editor to push the changes for me? If it is any help, @SHB2000did offer me Interface Admin privileges back in 2021, which is essentially what I believe I'd need. ― Wauteurz (talk)19:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't see a problem with that, and I'm also happy to wait a while before resorting to reverting to the legacy 2010 vector appearance. We do probably have to do a nomination at Wikivoyage:User rights nominations, and there would be a wait per policy. Sorry, I'd like to flip the switch right away, but that would be contrary to procedure (I guess that remark really does make me sound like a bureaucrat, hahaha). Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure that that's a question I can easily answer. The minimum I'd need would be a month. Pushing the essential fixes for Vector 2022 I would do before my birthday (the 23rd) or between the 28th and New Years'. I'd like to have Vector 2022 working well by the start of next year, in any case. For the more cosmetic changes that we'll likely have a more detailed vote for - Probably that can be done by February? Three months should be enough on paper. Whether it will be enough in practise depends on a lot of things in my personal sphere that I do not have control over (If you need me to divulge on that, I can do so privately), so it's hard for me to give a reliable ETA. Maybe it's best to assume it to take half a year, and if Vector 2022 is finalised before then, it could always be shortened? ― Wauteurz (talk)20:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
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