Talk:Eastern Ontario Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

I think there's a problem here. You have Renfrew County listed in Eastern Ontario, a region described as "south of the Ottawa Valley." There are two problems with this.

1. The vast majority of residents of the County would consider themselves as living in the Ottawa Valley. Even the Yellow Pages edition for this area is "Upper Ottawa Valley."
2. Even if, for some reason, it is decided that they should be in Eastern Ontario, instead of the Ottawa Valley, there's no possible way that Renfrew County can be thought of as south of the Ottawa Valley. - 216.58.51.139 18:06, 22 October 2006 (EDT)

Not sure if the regional coverage is thorough. Where should Ottawa and Carp go? (WT-en) texugo 01:32, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Formally, there is a "National Capital Region" which includes both Ottawa and Carp, but also some areas in Quebec. Pashley (talk) 14:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

This conversation has been copied in from User talk:K7L#Eastern Ontario:

Hi K7L, I agree with you that those county articles in Eastern Ontario are useless and we need to get rid of them. But that leaves about 25-30 "city" (and "city" means city, town or village) guides for Eastern Ontario that should be organized in some way. Some of them, like Clarence Creek should be redirected somewhere else, but I think there's about 15 or so that look like they could become usable articles with a bit of work. I don't have a lot of time right now, but if you have some ideas on how to better organize Eastern Ontario, put them up on Talk:Eastern Ontario so we can get the ball rolling on getting rid of the counties.

On a kind of related note, Cobourg and Port Hope are currently grouped in Central Ontario with places like Peterborough (Ontario), Barrie and Wasaga Beach. I was thinking it would make more sense to group them with Trenton, Belleville, etc. (I'm guessing most people who go to Cobourg continue along the 401). Any thoughts - agree/disagree? Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 06:46, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

See also Talk:Renfrew_County. I think the county article should be a redirect to Ottawa Valley, not the reverse as you've done. Pashley (talk) 14:39, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK, I deleted Ottawa Valley, it's all clear for Renfrew County to move over. Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 15:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I've tried to redraft eastern Ontario#Regions to break the reliance on counties as an arbitrary division, by adding "Quinte region", "Southeastern Ontario", "Ottawa Valley", "Seaway region" and the like (Prescott-Russell will likely need to be kept as the name of a subregion for the large, somewhat-francophone rural area between Ottawa and Montréal, but the rest of these county lines are useless and the empty outlines should simply be deleted).

The "Quinte-Kawartha" split between central Ontario (Cobourg, Peterborough and the Kawarthas) and eastern Ontario (Belleville-Trenton and the Quinte region) is done arbitrarily on the +1-905 area code boundary (Brighton is +1-613, that oversized apple on is in +1-905 Colborne). This is done as these areas are closer to Toronto (or the sprawl around it) than to either Ottawa or Kingston (Ontario).

I suppose the other option is to create southeastern Ontario one level below province and put everything in Quinte, Kawartha and 1000 Islands (Ontario) there. K7L (talk) 15:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think those regions look pretty good. I'm going to try to put a rough map together this weekend I put a rough map together so we can see how it looks, see if anything is missing, etc. Some preliminary thoughts:

• Is there supposed to be both a National Capital Region and a Prescott-Russell region? When I was checking the definition of the National Capital Region, it looks like it takes up 2/3 of Prescott-Russell so there's considerable overlap. My initial thought is to combine the Ottawa region articles with Prescott-Russell into one region (say Ottawa-Prescott-Russell). The idea of the National Capital Region and the francophone rural nature of Prescott-Russell could be explained in the Understand section. The other option would be to make the National Capital Region much smaller than it's official definition.
• Do we need a Southeastern Ontario region if we have a Quinte Region? It seems like an extra region layer, with another of those region templates to fill out. Would it be better to group Kingston (Ontario), Perth (Ontario), Smiths Falls, Gananoque and the Thousand Islands into a region like Frontenac or Frontenac-Rideau Country (to better differentiate it from Frontenac County)? Then we get a flatter hierarchy like:

Ontario > Eastern Ontario > Quinte > Belleville, and

Ontario > Eastern Ontario > Frontenac-Rideau Country > Kingston (Ontario)

instead of

Ontario > Eastern Ontario > Southeastern Ontario > Quinte > Belleville

• I hear what you're saying about the Quinte-Kawartha split and being closer to Toronto (although it can't be by much), but I still think Cobourg has more in common with the Quinte region than the Kawarthas. The Kawarthas are cottage country while Cobourg is right there on the lake and the 401 corridor. From a traveller's perspective, I think they're much more likely to do Cobourg > Belleville > Kingston then Cobourg > Peterborough. Could we cheat a little on the borders of Quinte to include Cobourg, or possibly call it Quinte-Northumberland to cover the larger area? -Shaundd (talk) 14:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

By "one level below province" I was thinking:

Ontario > Southeastern Ontario > Quinte-Northumberland > Trenton, Belleville, Napanee, Prince Edward County

Ontario > Southeastern Ontario > Rideau Lakes > Perth, Smiths Falls, Merrickville, Rideau Canal (itinerary)

Ontario > Southeastern Ontario > 1000 Islands region (Ontario) > Kingston, Gananoque and the Thousand Islands

The other option is that "southeastern Ontario" contain cities and towns directly instead of being subdivided further.

Otherwise, as you indicate, it's just one more pointless layer. Both "national capital" and "thousand islands" are awkward as they cross provincial boundaries - this question was discussed on Talk:Thousand Islands but never properly resolved. The destination-level page on the 1000 islands currently covers the islands themselves, tour boats, a bridge, boat rentals and ferry crossings into the islands and a few small points on the mainland that lack their own town/village-level article. I'm hesitant to create 1000 island region (Ontario) and 1000 island region (New York) if there are only two or three pages in each (the NY version would be Alexandria Bay and Thousand Islands as we still don't have an article for Clayton). If we create a mess of hollow shells, this is no better than the existing (mostly useless) county articles. K7L (talk) 18:34, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Agree about not creating a region with just two or three pages. I put up a map that roughs in what I think you first proposed. Does it look like I've captured everything? -Shaundd (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

That looks reasonably accurate. If there's substantial overlap, that may be because worker bees are commuting from places like Embrun or Arnprior to work in Ottawa as housing in Ottawa-Hull itself (at least on the Ontario side) is overpriced. (The same mess occurs with Toronto sprawl into the +1-905 area, to Oshawa-Hamilton.) Hawkesbury isn't part of Ottawa as (by distance) it's actually closer to Montréal. Kanata should never have been given an article, unless the intent were to districtify Ottawa - and even then districts of this little notability are normally subpages.

For the portions not already marked as subregions, the Rideau Lakes area (Perth, Smiths Falls, Merrickville) could either be a subregion or be attached to Ottawa. The large empty space north of Belleville has little; two under-5000 population towns (Bancroft and Madoc) exist but neither of them actually has an article here. Both are on the Belleville side of the county line so likely could be accommodated there were there a reason to create the articles.

One destination-level article which does not exist but should: the rural area around Prescott-Morrisburg as the home of Fort Wellington and Upper Canada Village (between Brockville and Cornwall on the seaway). K7L (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

What region are Perth & Smith Falls in? I cannot tell on the map. Pashley (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Smiths Falls and Merrickville are on the Rideau Canal (as is Westport, a village 1/3 of the way from Perth to Kingston). If they get a region they'd be Rideau Lakes but I'm not sure if a region for three towns is overkill - especially since Smiths Falls and Merrickville/Kemptville are a local 'phone call to Ottawa. K7L (talk) 20:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think a region with three towns is (almost always) overkill. Let's avoid it and group the Rideau Lakes with Ottawa. The 1000 Islands region and Seaway Region also only have two or three destinations each right now, as well. Can we combine them into one region? If there's enough content someday to create several pages, we can split the regions then. That would give us a structure of:

Eastern Ontario > Ottawa Valley > Renfrew, Arnprior, Pembroke, Petawawa, North Algona Wilberforce

Eastern Ontario > Ottawa and Rideau Lakes > Ottawa, Kanata, Perth, Smiths Falls, Merrickville, Rideau Canal (itinerary)

Eastern Ontario > Prescott-Russell > Embrun, Russell, Hawkesbury, Rockland

Eastern Ontario > Seaway-1000 Islands > Cornwall, Brockville, Prescott-Morrisburg, Kingston, Gananoque and the Thousand Islands

Eastern Ontario > Quinte-Northumberland >Trenton, Belleville, Napanee, Prince Edward County, Cobourg

I'd also prefer to add a sixth region to cover the big empty spot where Madoc and Bancroft are. That area also includes northern Lennox and Addington, northern Frontenac and some of Lanark County, so I'm hesitant to include it with Belleville or Quinte. I was reading on a couple of sites that the area is often considered the "Highlands" of Ontario (apparently the highest point in the province is in there somewhere). Maybe call it Ontario Highlands and see if we can get some content added to it. -Shaundd (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

The five regions look good (using Ottawa-Rideau contains the subregion in-province, where "capital region" would need to include Hull). I'm not sure there's enough for a sixth region here. Lennox County is coextensive with Napanee (so runs south, not north), the "northern Addington" and extension into Frontenac is mostly Canadian Shield and therefore rural to wilderness - there is a Land of Lakes tourist association[1] in Kandahar Kaladar (a tiny village at the highway 7/41 crossroads north of Napanee) marketing this as hiking and fishing country, but no major cities to serve as anchor. The piece of Lanark County to which you refer (as we already have Perth and Smiths Falls, and Carleton Place belongs with Ottawa/Kanata) is presumably Calabogie Peaks, a ski hill. There is golf. motorsports and some sort of lodging so Calabogie might be just enough to fill one small town/village-level article but not enough to justify a subregion.[2][3][4][5][6][7] It markets itself as "on the edge of the Ottawa Valley, one hour from Ottawa" so likely should be placed with Ottawa Valley.

I'd suggest "Land of Lakes" and Bancroft[8][9][10]/Madoc[11] (which might not have enough for a page) as in the same region with Napanee-Belleville (respectively) while Calabogie fits best at the edge of the Ottawa Valley. K7L (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK, let's leave it at five regions. If Quinte ever gets overrun by articles about the northern reaches of Hastings County, we can deal with it then. I'll try to update the map and post it tomorrow. -Shaundd (talk) 05:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Revised map is up. If everything is OK, we can finish this off. -Shaundd (talk) 23:31, 18 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Looks reasonable. If Westport (Ontario) is created (Rideau Canal, by road 50km south of Perth) it should likely be grouped with Perth and the rest of the Rideau villages. We are still missing articles for Prescott (Ontario) and Ogdensburg, but "Fort Wellington" in Prescott, "Upper Canada Village" and "Crysler Battlefield Park" in Morrisburg are clearly, as you indicate, seaway (Brockville-Cornwall). The US side regionalisation currently calls northern New York "North Country" and includes destination-level articles directly under it - "Ogdensburg" would be a city in that region if created. I think user:LtPowers was discussing subregions for NNY on Talk:Thousand Islands a while back, although the region is sparse in population. At least this wraps up East Ont. K7L (talk) 01:33, 19 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

The subregions here have filled out nicely, but things seem to be a bit of a mess in the northwest. Maynooth is listed as part of the Kawarthas, Bancroft is breadcrumbed to Quinte-Northumberland and Algonquin Provincial Park is listed as part of Eastern Ontario (but breadcrumbed to Ontario). Looking at a map of the area, I think it would make more sense to:

• group these three destinations, plus the Haliburton Highlands, into one Central Ontario Highlands region, and
• make Central Ontario Highlands a subregion Central Ontario.

I know there would only be three "cities" plus one other destination in the new subregion, but I think it makes more sense from a geographic perspective (we're currently stretching the definition of the Kawarthas and Quite-Northumberland quite a bit here), as well as all four destinations being similar in terms of focus on things to see and do. Thoughts? -Shaundd (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

The "region" would be very sparse, except for the park itself. The structure isn't the same as Adirondacks as that park contains incorporated villages like Saranac Lake which were within the park boundaries when it was established and were exempt from the restrictions on development in the rest of the park. Algonquin Park contains no villages - although there are a few small hamlets like Maynooth and Wilno outside the park boundary in the east, and the Hwy 11 "cottage country" corridor to the west.

I'm thinking that Algonquin Park should be listed directly under Ontario instead of inconsistently trying to place it in northern Ontario at times and eastern Ontario at others. Between the Hwy 7 corridor (Madoc-Tweed-Sharbot Lake) and Bancroft there are relatively few populated places by southern Ontario standards - perhaps the terrain is Canadian Shield and mostly rock or forest? Splitting Bancroft, Tweed and the like out of Quinte-Northumberland - or Wilno and the villages nearby out of Ottawa Valley is possible, but would leave a very sparsely-populated subregion as there's relatively little outside the two "beaten path" corridors: Trans-Canada Highway in the Ottawa Valley, Windsor-Quebec corridor in the St. Lawrence Valley and Great Lakes. K7L (talk) 00:23, 3 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

That's a good point about Algonquin Park. It overlaps a number of regions so the breadcrumb should go directly to Ontario. I think the park should still be listed as an Other destination on subregion pages (like Central Ontario, Eastern Ontario and Northern Ontario) so anyone reading the subregion page can access it easily.

I agree the proposed region would be sparse -- it's mostly Canadian Shield -- but that's part of the reason why I think it makes sense to pull it out. It's very different than the 401 corridor towns of Quinte-Northumberland and people go there for the outdoor activities like canoeing, hiking, fishing, snowmobiling, skiing. That's not so much the case for say Cobourg, Belleville and Trenton. In the end, I'm not too fussed about the sparseness or number of destinations if the region makes sense from a travel perspective. -Shaundd (talk) 18:58, 5 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

To clarify what I thought the borders might be, my initial thoughts were the Highlands subregion would consist of Haliburton County, the northern part of Hastings County and the part of Nippissing that's south of Algonquin Park. Including Wilno and vicinity (I think it's officially called the Township of Madawaska Valley) is an interesting possibility, I'm hesitant to include places further east though because I think the subregion would then straddle both Central and Eastern Ontario. I was going to leave everything on the Hwy 7 corridor as part of Quinte-Northumberland, on the assumption that someone may wander off the 401 to see Tweed but you're not going to go all the way to Bancroft unless that's your ultimate destination. -Shaundd (talk) 01:51, 6 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

I've been giving this more thought and looking at how this area is treated for tourism purposes elsewhere. The "official" Ontario tourism region is the Ontario Highlands, which stretches from the Muskokas to the Ottawa River. The Ottawa Valley tourism association includes Renfrew County but also nearby outlying communities like Maynooth, Bancroft and some of the places we have in the Ottawa-Rideau region.

The main issue I have is I don't think Maynooth (Kawarthas) and Bancroft (Quinte-Northumberland) are in the right region right now. Creating an Ontario Highlands region like the Ontario tourism site has would mess with our current region structure and I don't think we need to go there. The simplest approach seems to be to include Maynooth and Bancroft in the Ottawa Valley region, which is at least consistent with the Ottawa Valley tourism site, and doesn't involve creating new small subregions. I also think it makes more sense than what we currently do. -Shaundd (talk) 17:46, 7 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Happy Thanksgiving. Does the 7±2 rule favour creating a region in such a way as to include at least five destinations? If so, Maynooth and Bancroft might be too small to be an entire region unto themselves, but including Highlands and Upper Ottawa Valley together might make sense. K7L (talk) 14:07, 10 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Happy Thanksgiving. The 7±2 rule is an important guideline, although it notes common sense should be applied. In this case, I think (after further reflection) that the most sensible thing would be to include Bancroft and Maynooth in the Ottawa Valley article. They're kind of in-between everything, but (now) seem to have more ties to the Ottawa Valley region than Quinte-Northumberland or the Kawarthas. -Shaundd (talk) 03:22, 11 October 2016 (UTC)Reply