User talk:K7L Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

Hello, K7L! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

Before you get too carried away with highway information, please read over what constitutes an article -- as a general rule, roads and highways do not get articles of their own, unless they're so iconic that driving them is the whole point of a journey. The Trans-Canada Highway counts, but your average 400-series Ontario freeway or U.S. interstate wouldn't. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 03:31, 16 October 2012 (CEST)

That begs the question... what's the best way to get the Toronto-Montreal corridor as an itinerary? Taking a road like 2 or 401 (both of which mostly reach the same towns), following the St. Lawrence Seaway system, following the rail line, taking just one region (such as Southern Ontario) and listing the towns within it as an itinerary? Taking a signed tourist route like "Heritage Highway", "Loyalist Parkway", "Seaway Trail" and the like? Admittedly I'm used to Wikipedia, where the McFreeway actually has a featured article as "Ontario Highway 401". K7L (talk) 03:39, 16 October 2012 (CEST)

Wikipedia seems to have an entry for every road. (A printout of the article for wikipedia:New York State Route 437 would almost be longer than the road!) Itineraries are maybe not the best choice since they're usually for a specific route, not all the possible options - the gory details there are at Wikivoyage:Itineraries. Toronto-Montreal is a little tougher because there's no region short of the Canada article itself that's got both of them covered; there's probably a lot that could be added to Central Ontario and Eastern Ontario, perhaps?

In most cases I think we simply don't have anything explicit for corridors in heavily built-up areas, like Toronto-Montreal, Washington-New York, London-Manchester, and so forth. There's just so many towns in there that it's hard to cater to everyone. Cherry-picking the most interesting places and mentioning them in Go Next sections is the norm.

Instead of creating articles for a highway, using routeboxes is the usual way to link together articles along a given path. Those appear all the way at the bottom of the article - there's already one in place for Toronto on 400, 401, and as the end of the QEW. Doesn't have to be roads; all it would take to add the St. Lawrence Seaway is whipping up a small icon.

-- D. Guillaume (talk) 03:58, 16 October 2012 (CEST)

Routeboxes are rather different in that they only list the next town or towns on the road, not an entire route or itinerary. As such, they're neither interchangeable nor mutually exclusive. I'm also unsure about {{isIn}} - what happens if something is in more than one province or country? Thousand Islands {{isIn|New York state}} and Ontario, for instance. Also, why do none of these create Category:Ontario or other placename-based categories? That leaves many uncategorised pages. K7L (talk) 05:02, 16 October 2012 (CEST)

For geographical purposes, we don't use categories; the isIn breadcrumbs replace them entirely. There are some articles that don't fit well into that fixed hierarchy, like Metro New York (with useful discussion at Talk:New York City#Breadcrumb), which are still useful and valuable articles. They're infrequent enough that we don't honestly have a good, consistent way of dealing with them yet. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 05:58, 17 October 2012 (CEST)

Hi there. Thanks for all the work you've been doing on the cities and towns along the 401. It's good to see Ontario articles getting some attention. It's looking good, just a couple of things I noticed with the Cobourg article. One thing is we're pretty sticky about keeping to the standard sections, so Wikivoyage guides don't have an Around the region section. Information relating to a nearby destination that has its own article already -- like Port Hope -- would be listed there. Otherwise, the listing information is listed in the appropriate section (See, Do, Eat, etc.) of the guide. A second thing is we include a brief description with accommodation and restaurant listings. If we just include the basic contact information it starts to look like the Yellow Pages, which is not one of our goals. Cheers -Shaund (talk) 02:02, 28 October 2012 (CET)

I've raised the "around the region" question (what to do with small villages with one listing, but geographically separate from the nearest small city with a usable article?) at Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Villages with one or no listings and Wikivoyage talk:Small city article template#Buy.2FDrink.2FAround the region. The use of a subsection allows a redirect in the form Colborne (Ontario): #REDIRECT Cobourg#Colborne to point directly to the one village. Certainly, we do have a problem with articles which contain *no* listings at all (Port Hope is one, although at least it's salvageable as the town itself has things which could be listed; some of these other template-but-no-content articles should never have been created). I've removed "Port Hope" as a subsection and listed it in "go next" - it's 11km away, but if you want to try to create it as a separate page, go ahead... an empty template is waiting. K7L (talk) 18:04, 28 October 2012 (CET)

Hi K7L, I agree with you that those county articles in Eastern Ontario are useless and we need to get rid of them. But that leaves about 25-30 "city" (and "city" means city, town or village) guides for Eastern Ontario that should be organized in some way. Some of them, like Clarence Creek should be redirected somewhere else, but I think there's about 15 or so that look like they could become usable articles with a bit of work. I don't have a lot of time right now, but if you have some ideas on how to better organize Eastern Ontario, put them up on Talk:Eastern Ontario so we can get the ball rolling on getting rid of the counties.

On a kind of related note, Cobourg and Port Hope are currently grouped in Central Ontario with places like Peterborough (Ontario), Barrie and Wasaga Beach. I was thinking it would make more sense to group them with Trenton, Belleville, etc. (I'm guessing most people who go to Cobourg continue along the 401). Any thoughts - agree/disagree? Cheers -Shaund (talk) 06:46, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

See also Talk:Renfrew_County. I think the county article should be a redirect to Ottawa Valley, not the reverse as you've done. Pashley (talk) 14:39, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK, I deleted Ottawa Valley, it's all clear for Renfrew County to move over. Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 15:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I've tried to redraft eastern Ontario#Regions to break the reliance on counties as an arbitrary division, by adding "Quinte region", "Southeastern Ontario", "Ottawa Valley", "Seaway region" and the like (Prescott-Russell will likely need to be kept as the name of a subregion for the large, somewhat-francophone rural area between Ottawa and Montréal, but the rest of these county lines are useless and the empty outlines should simply be deleted).

The "Quinte-Kawartha" split between central Ontario (Cobourg, Peterborough and the Kawarthas) and eastern Ontario (Belleville-Trenton and the Quinte region) is done arbitrarily on the +1-905 area code boundary (Brighton is +1-613, that oversized apple on is in +1-905 Colborne). This is done as these areas are closer to Toronto (or the sprawl around it) than to either Ottawa or Kingston (Ontario).

I suppose the other option is to create southeastern Ontario one level below province and put everything in Quinte, Kawartha and 1000 Islands (Ontario) there. K7L (talk) 15:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Looking good. I continued the discussion on Talk:Eastern Ontario. Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 14:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Hi, K7L, and thanks for all the work you do! A question here, in regard to the Canadian article: How are you so sure that (508) 655-4599 couldn't be a valid number in the town of Canadian, Texas? Yes, 508 is normally a Massachusetts area code, but it could be a cell phone in this case, whereupon all bets are off. Which website do you think is more likely to have out-of-date information, this one [1] or this one [2]? I'm not as sure as you seem to be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:55, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I tried searching for 508-655-4599 and the only site (independent of WT or WV) which had this specific Massachusetts number listed to Texas was the Texas Park and Wildlife Service, presumably the source used when the article here was written. Anything else returned on a search for this 508 number returns it as being in its home state, MA. To complicate things further, the doctor in MA died half a year ago.[3] I realise that there's nothing to stop someone in Texas from subscribing a New Zealand number with voice-over-IP (for instance), but doing so would make them quite a toll call from the one Canadian exchange (I presume it to be only one exchange as most of the numbers in the article differ only in the last four digits). I also note that "MA 508-655 AS 9102 VERIZON NEW ENGLAND INC. NATICK N" is a landline carrier, so the number likely did not start out as mobile.[4] I've had no luck finding much of anything else on a "Washita Ranch" in Texas (about all that turns up on a search is that a ranch on the Washita river in Oklahoma was recently sold - which is likely irrelevant, even if it's only one state away).Unfortunate, as that doesn't give me corrected info to put in place of what is clearly incorrect info in an upstream source. K7L (talk) 03:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Short version: You might well be right, and there is room for doubt. Longer version: There is no big problem with using a cell phone with a Massachusetts exchange in Texas, and I don't understand what New Zealand has to do with anything. For many cell phone users, long distance charges for calls within the Lower 48 states of the US are a thing of the past. And Verizon is just as much a cell provider as a landline company, unless you know something specific about the particular division of Verizon. The thing I'm not sure about is that, given that the doctor in question died only this past May, if that really was his phone number, I do think there's room for doubt about whether it was already transferred to someone's cell phone and they moved to Canadian, Texas. So the phone number very well could be wrong, I'm just not sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:35, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I do know something specific about the particular division of Verizon. If I search for MA/508 on nanpa.com/nas/public/assigned_code_query_display.do it gives me a list of every three-digit exchange prefix in the area code; this list displays "CELLCO PARTNERSHIP DBA VERIZON WIRELESS - MA" for a cell 'phone and "VERIZON NEW ENGLAND INC." for a plain old NYNEX landline. The only way this could be valid would be if the doctor retired years ago, dropped the number, someone else picked it up as a landline in the same suburb of the same town (w:Natick, Massachusetts, pop 33000, is 15 miles west of Boston), then ported it to a mobile or Internet 'phone, then high-tailed it to Texas and kept the same number for a ranch out on the panhandle for no clear reason. This number did not start out life as a mobile 'phone, otherwise it would be "Cellco Partnership DBA Verizon Wireless" +1-508-397- as the one Natick mobile Verizon exchange. (Admittedly, if it's 15 miles from Boston, I'm surprised it even has a mobile exchange, as its calling area may just be a subset of Boston's - but NANP does indicate separate Verizon wired and wireless exchanges exist in Natick.) K7L (talk) 11:35, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I'm convinced. Good work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for this helpful edit. Is this a genuine Canadian example of where 10 (or eleven) digit dialling is always necessary, even from within that same (Canadian) area code, please? -- Alice^✉ 05:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Eleven-digit dialling is never necessary for a local call in Canada (+1-800- is an eleven-digit call, because it's long-distance with charges reversed, not local). +1-647- overlays the entire +1-416 area code (Toronto) so is safe to assume that it has never been usable as a seven-digit local call, period. See http://cnac.ca/co_codes/co_code_status_map.htm for a list of Canadian numbers. K7L (talk) 06:00, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for all of your great work on the site in helping to clarify policies and move Wikivoyage forward. Your latest contribution - the RMS Titanic article - is a particularly cool idea! In the past the site has tended to get a lot of half-baked itineraries, but this seems like one that is developing quickly, is easy for others to add content to, and one that has a hugely interesting subject. Very nice work! -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

For pointing out the wrong "price"/prices syntax - my cheeks are redder than usual! -- Alice^✉ 07:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the note on the contact section. I missed that in the template information. Lots to learn. Fortunately all the chamber of commerces that I have added do have wifi for traveller's use. I'll be better aware of the sections purpose going forward. Thanks --Tbennert (talk) 02:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Sorry to bother you again. I need your help and knowledge. The question is on your french talk page. -- ChristianT (talk) 17:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Hey, I wondered if you would be interested in a demotion to janitor? I'd like to nominate you, if you would accept. --Peter ^Talk 20:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It might be a little soon... I've only been here since October. K7L (talk) 04:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I would wholeheartedly support a nomination if you were interested. You've done a great job and have shown a very, very solid understanding of site policy. -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Are you ready to consider a nomination? We could use more people on deck with a mop. Also, thanks for talking to Les Saintes in French. My French is decent, but yours is fluent, at least in writing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Any new thoughts on this? You essentially act as an admin, but without admin tools. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:23, 2 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

So you know, I've created the above page as a checklist for removing the Wikitravel links. --Rschen7754 05:19, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L,

I saw that you inlined the magnify icon template into the panorama template. Is this common procedure to decrease server cycles? If not, I guess keeping the reference would be the better option. Ml31415^✉ (talk) 04:21, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

The reference was not working as it was pointing to a template on another wiki. The inline version seems to work. K7L (talk) 04:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

well there must be a whopping amount of bytes from lines and unused space on wikivoyage then.... sats (talk) 00:50, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

resolved elsewhere... (my downright ignorance of byte measurement and idiocy that is) sats (talk) 04:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

as a long timer wp en user I am quite concerned that there are parts of wp en that do not link very well to wikivoyage, despite the banner of earlier on, now that it has gone, I am sure there must be other methods to clear up what I see as blockage - is there any off wiki discussion possible on this ? sats (talk) 04:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

E-mail should work for contact off-wiki. K7L (talk) 17:04, 22 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

As per the discussion on the talk page, I'll be changed the template to display Wikivoyage by default over the next few days. There appears to be no opposition, and 2 weeks has passed. However, one issue I can foresee is that the description says "Travel guide from Wikivoyage". If there will be links from articles like w:Abraham Lincoln, I don't think travel guide is very appropriate. Would it be possible to change the template so that:

• When there is a direct link (non-Special:Search, using voy=) to Wikivoyage from articles like w:Paris, the text says "Travel guide from Wikivoyage"
• When there is a default link (Special:Search) to Wikivoyage from articles like Abraham Lincoln, the text says "Travel information from Wikivoyage"

Does that sound better to you? JamesA ^>talk 01:45, 23 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for updating the category text. Was going to get round to it, but was busy with other tasks. The danger of cut and paste.--Traveler100 (talk) 08:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Was this edit accidental? While I was a fan, "Nearby" / "Nearby destinations" lost the battle in the great section header rename of 2012. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Nearby" (in small cities only) appears occasionally where a small town is surrounded by tiny rural villages (not contiguous suburbs) which are too small individually to have their own article but which have at least a listing each, Cobourg#Nearby for instance. Not the same beast as "Go next" (which links to the next place that actually has an article) and very rarely used, it does not apply to big cities as the adjacent points almost always have articles. K7L (talk) 18:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that heading is meant to be a top-level heading. Wikivoyage:Small city article template#Go next has a "Nearby" sub-section, and I've seen it used as a sub-section of things like "Sleep" (Yosemite#Sleep used to have a "Nearby" sub-section for lodging at the park borders, for example), but even if it is something people want to see as a top-level header I don't think it should be included in the template used for creating a new small city article template since (as you've noted) it would only be used rarely. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Kingston (Ontario)#Outside the city as a subsection ("do") presumes that all the rural-village listings will be in that one category (activities in this example, or lodging at Yosemite...). That isn't always a valid assumption. K7L (talk) 19:09, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Since this discussion is veering into a policy discussion about Wikivoyage headings it might be better to bring that up on a policy talk page outside of the userspace (and for what it's worth, I do think the issue could benefit from some clarification, but given the fuss that has been raised over relatively simple things like changing the name of the Pub, I'm hesitant to start any new discussion that might be controversial). My primary concern in bringing the original issue was simply to clarify an edit of yours that I didn't understand, and that issue has now been addressed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wikivoyage talk:Geographical hierarchy#Villages with one or no listings was discussed, but the question of what is a "suburb", what is a "nearby" rural village with one listing and what is a town worth creating as a new page is still addressed on a case-by-case basis (for instance, Talk:Utica on whether to split Rome (New York), Oriskany and Vernon or treat them as suburbs). I'd hesitate to re-open either of these debates. K7L (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi there, and thanks for all the great work you do! I thought you might want to see what I did with the "Kot addu" article: Kot Adu. It wasn't very complicated and didn't take a long time but one of the things it required me to do was delete the "copyvio" tag. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:01, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

The page was under a misspelled title and copied in its entirety (without attribution) from Wikipedia. As long as any WP text is removed or attributed, removing the tag should be fine. K7L (talk) 00:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I realize that. I just don't feel that tag is very useful. If you can take the time to slap the tag on, maybe you could delete most of the text instead, with a note. That was my thought. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

That really depends where the text originated. That might be acceptable in this case with WP text (as the only copyright issue was the lack of attribution) but some pages contain copypasta from CVB sites or other copyrighted sources. Those should be deleted if there's no original text worth salvaging, as otherwise the copyvio is still in the revision history of the article, a legal issue. K7L (talk) 00:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

My point is, by slapping a tag on an article when you could spend a minute fixing it (I believe you don't have the power to delete articles?), you're creating work for other people. And my understanding is that it's not a problem for copyvio to be in the history, if it was responsibly deleted. If you're right that that's a legal issue, that needs to be understood much more widely, including among admins, and our routines in dealing with it have to be changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I guess I'm misstating things a bit. You're not creating work for other people; you're leaving work for other people instead of doing it yourself, and these are things you can do quickly, which is not the case when I slap a "Style" tag on an article that has dozens of messed-up listings that have to be dealt with one by one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I've tried to find how other Wikimedia projects deal with copyright problems and it would appear (at least on en.wp) they will attempt to roll back or edit a page unless every version is an unsalvageable copyvio. That said, if an entire page is copypasta from inception, it is speedily deleted. Removing copyvios from the revision history of an otherwise-viable article will be done if the copyright holder requests it. w:Wikipedia:Copyright problems#Rewriting content seems to prefer to start a rewrite on a clean slate unless there's text which needs to be kept.

It would appear that, if every revision of a page is copypasta, in the long run it actually creates more work if a non-infringing article is pasted over the copyvio with the plagiarism left in the history as, if the owner of the text complains, an admin would then need to carry out revision deletions (or delete the article then undelete just the non-infringing revisions). K7L (talk) 02:50, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

My assumption is that when the copypasta is from promotional sites, the people pasting the content are most often associated with those sites, and therefore wouldn't be likely to bug us about the copypasta in the history but, instead, regret that we are deleting it and substituting a real article. If, however, you think it's important to summarily delete copypasta articles instead of deleting everything but a lead sentence and imposing a template on it, perhaps this should be discussed in Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits, which seems like the most relevant page. Link to or copy relevant parts of this discussion if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello and thank you for continuing to fix whatever I did to the article on hotels!

Meanwhile, I have noticed your addition to the section on motels. I am getting quite worried if this is not an overly US thing you mentioned about highways and freeways, the specific vocabulary notwithstanding. I do not think what you mentioned is a European thing. This is just to make sure we maintain a global POV.

I was also wondering what effective use could travellers make of the information on the historic development of motels.

Kindest, PrinceGloria (talk) 05:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Feel free to change the text if it doesn't fit. The history is that motels were originally a southwestern US concept which spread to places like Canada and Australia. Thousands of these were built post-WW2 (1950s and 1960s) but new motel construction ground to a halt in the 1980s in favour of low-end hotel chains like Comfort Inn, Days Inn, HI Express...

What does this mean to the traveller? These places started life as lower-cost alternatives to hotels. They are typically half a century old, having been built before the freeways came to town. When the main roads they served were bypassed, many went into steep decline. Originally out in the countryside, many now find themselves in growing suburbs or declining inner cities as the urban area expanded around them. Some were demolished, some left to decline, some continued unchanged until the original owner retired. A rare few were restored for nostalgia's sake (US Route 66 is especially prone to this as there are federal matching grants and the road itself is being marketed with a 1950s theme).

The end result to travellers is that a few of these still represent excellent value for money, if the location is reasonable and if they've been well maintained and updated to modern standards, but there are many which are best simply avoided. Bad neighbourhoods on long-bypassed main roads in big cities are a problem - what might've been a great location when these were built a half-century ago is now a mess of weekly rental low-income housing in an area blighted by petty street crime.

I don't think it's possible to ignore the US origin of these as the internationalisation is hit-and-miss. In Europe, the "motel" terminology refers to just an inexpensive hotel in France and Germany while in Spanish, Portuguese (and increasingly in Italian) a "motel" is a place for adultery - much as it is in South America or Central America. The US model is likely valid in Australia, New Zealand and much of Canada. I wouldn't bother looking for a US-style motel in downtown Tokyo, the land is just too valuable. Motels were built on long stretches of rural highway on inexpensive land, as part of the 1950s "love affair" with the automobile. That may make no sense in a place where land is scarce or motorcars are priced beyond reach. Rail travel has its own entirely-different history, built around downtown hotels. About all that can be done is describe the original North American style motel and then point out the regional differences. It's most awkward when the same word em português means something entirely different. K7L (talk) 15:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L,

I'm writing you because I've got a couple of doubt on the template in the subject.

1. I've noticed that the various templates (i.e. see, do, etc...) pass to Listing the parameter "type" that is not used. There's a reason for that?
2. During this change has been added the following code -->{{#if:{{{fax|}}}|, <span class="tel"><span class="type">fax</span>: <span class="value">{{{fax}}}</span></span> }}<!-- by Pigsonthewing (I'm writing you only to do just one post :-)), but I think that for homogenity with the other parameters <span class="tel"><span class="type">fax</span> should be changed just into fax.

What do you think? --Andyrom75 (talk) 12:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Some of the other languages are using "type" in order to generate icons or locator maps. We're not using it yet on en: but I'd expect it will be used in the future to show "eat" as a fork, "drink" as a glass, "sleep" as a roof and bed if maps are generated with listing data.

The "tel / type - fax" bit is from w:hCard, which specifies that format as part of a standard. K7L (talk) 16:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Ok for the "type" that it's there for potential future development. But honestly I can't understand the difference in terms of style between (for example) "tel" and "fax". In fact in that link the layout it's the same. In your opinion we should keep it as it is, or removing the exceed code for simplicity? --Andyrom75 (talk) 17:27, 19 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think "fax" is in that particular "tel, type=fax" format because of the w:hCard standard, which specifies a format so that software such as w:operator (extension) can extract the records and download them as address book data. K7L (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Please see Wikivoyage_talk:Sister_project_links#Inline_links_to_Wikipedia. --Piotrus (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I loved your recent edit in the Tourist office:

Leaving Somalia to enter a country with no functional central government would appear a risky proposition at best, but ...

Thanks. Metaphorically at least, I am rolling on the floor laughing. Pashley (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi! Your edit summary here led me to take a look at the phone numbers in the listings in the Rovaniemi article and some of them are really messed up. I can see you're cleaning up the article right now so here are some guidelines: Finnish phone numbers consist of six to eight numbers after the area code. Except some mobile phone numbers from the 1990's that are still around, the area code always consists of two numbers when calling from abroad, calling domestically one will need to dial an extra zero first. (0)16 is Rovaniemi's area code, (0)4x and (0)5x mobile numbers and (0)20 numbers that are routed through call centers. In Finland numbers are divided like this +358 xx 123 456, +358 xx 123 4567, +358 xx 1234 5678 or sometimes written without any spaces between (i.e. hyphens are never used when writing phone numbers in international form, even though they are often used to separate the area code from the phone number when the number is written in domestic form like 0xx-123 456). ϒpsilon (talk) 20:10, 8 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK, so that's what's up with +358 20... w:Telephone numbers in Finland had it as a geographic area code, "02 Turku and Pori (Turku ja Pori / Åbo och Björneborg)", but it seems to be turning up on many listings geographically in +358 16. Are these charged as regular calls, or are they non-geographic, freephone/toll-free or otherwise non-standard?

I'm rather unsure about the number length as I'm seeing things like http://www.hihostels.com/dba/hostel019076.en.htm "Rovaniemi - Hostel Rudolf, +358 16 321 321 Fax. +358 16 321 3222" with different-length numbers on the same exchange in the same area code. How does the 'phone system determine when all of the digits have been dialled?

The use of (0) and 00 appears to be the same as United Kingdom or other European countries — we list the international number without the domestic trunk prefix in these cases. K7L (talk) 20:32, 8 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

(0)2 is for landline phones in southwestern Finland, a (0)20 number can be located anywhere in Finland. They are sometimes toll free but usually you will need to pay just a local call fee. They're used by government agencies and large companies (like supermarket chains with hundreds of stores) that have their own exchanges. So yeah, they are special numbers.

As I said, the phone numbers proper can consist of six to eight numbers. Six digit numbers are usually found in larger cities where people got phones a century ago. I think at some point they ran out of numbers and started issuing phone numbers with seven digits, which are the most common today. Phone exchanges seem to be able to handle both six and seven and eight digit numbers (landline phones in some new residential/industrial areas) - I don't know exactly how they do but you just dial the number in its entirety and that's it.

Yes, the thing with the additional (0) is exactly the same as in the UK, Sweden, Germany etc. You're right that it shouldn't be included in our listings. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

"File:" is the proper namespace for images; please don't change instances of "File:" to "Image:". Thanks! Powers ^(talk) 21:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Both are valid. The only reason file: was created was that, in theory, it could point to media other than images (such as audio files) - even though this is rare and most files on MediaWiki sites are indeed images. K7L (talk) 21:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, both are valid, but "Image:" is only an alias. There's nothing wrong with using "Image:", but changing "File:" to "Image:" doesn't make much sense. Powers ^(talk) 01:43, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Please see Talk:Southern Russia. It is a very bad idea to use unnecessarily inflammatory language about international law, especially as our articles lack refs, so we are ill-equipped to effectively argue with nationalists on either side about the relevant provisions of international law. Moreover, this is a travel guide that aims to help people who may want to travel someplace, not a place to argue about the rights and wrongs of who has de facto control of what. If it were, all of us could spend all day arguing about disputes between Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, India and China, and who knows who else. I would respectfully ask you to please restrain yourself here and make points about international law in other fora. You don't have to like the Russian grab of Crimea, but I think we do have to just present the facts on the ground as they are, without taking a pro or con position on them.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:58, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Please see here You took a personal name and added ligatures to it (Rene). Also, generally, words which have become Anglicized drop their ligatures. So, "cafe" is appropriate English (just like "facade" rather than "façade". —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:30, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Nice work on that one. Pashley (talk) 03:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, K7L. I don't know if you saw this edit of mine, but I would appreciate some advice on how to deal with an edit at Central New York without scaring off a potential new editor. Powers ^(talk) 18:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Don't attribute to malice what can be the result of a legitimate mistake, and don't label as a "mistake" what is merely a difference in opinion? A similar approach to w:WP:BITE and w:WP:AGF (don't bite, but assume good faith where possible)? K7L (talk) 17:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L, thanks for the clean up work on the Yarmouth pages. I had started it a while back but then other things took over and I never finished what I started. Not sure if I had left it worse or better at that point, but thanks for cleaning up. Cheers. -Shaundd (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

It likely still needs work... Digby as a redlink doesn't look right. K7L (talk) 18:18, 1 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

Just curious- what template populates this? I've never seen any pages in this category, and it doesn't appear to be among the tracking categories populated by Mediawiki. Are we using this? Texugo (talk) 20:38, 12 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

The template is {{saved book}}, which is pretty much a copy of the Wikipedia template of the same name. Wikivoyage:Books is the corresponding documentation. K7L (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! I put a description there so we know better what it's for. Texugo (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, K7L, I'm looking forward to scan the "Seattle" article, especially regarding the grammar. You see, English is not my first language, so sometimes I have trouble with what's the correct word and the correct grammar. Looking forward to it & beforehand, thank you for your contribution! Othello95 (talk) 04:07. 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Rappel sur l'organisation touristique en France:

La France est découpée administrativement en collectivités, l'organisation du tourisme suit le meme schéma:

- La Commune => Office de Tourisme (EPIC donc secteur privé)ou Syndicat d'initiative (secteur public géré directement par les Mairies),

- La Communauté de Communes ou urbaine => dépend du CDT,

- Le Département => le CDT (Comité départemental du Tourisme) organisme local,

- La Région => Le CRT (Comité Régionnal du tourisme) organisme local,

- Le Pays => Le Ministère du Tourisme donc l'Etat.

En dehors de ce découpage administratif (Loi de décentralisation de 1986) il n'existe rien d'autre (Celui qui veut changer la donne doit se présenter à la présidentielle de 2017).

Concernant L'Archipel des Saintes:

"Les Saintes" est une dénomination géographique (pas administrative!)

Elle est composée de deux îles habitées ayant chacune le statut de Commune (Administratif !)

- Terre de Haut, avec sa Mairie et son Office de Tourisme,

- Terre de Bas, avec sa propre Mairie et son Office de Tourisme.

La notion de "Site Officiel" ou "personnel":

- Un site "Officiel" est un site géré par une administration ou par un Organisme privé mandaté,

- Un site "Personnel" est un site géré par un individu ou une entreprise pour son compte propre.

Lessaintes-booking.com est un site non-institutionnel (pas de découpage administratif) en charge de la promotion de l'archipel (géographique) et plébiscité par les instances locales don't elle dépend (la presse en parle...).

Profiter d'un site "Officiel" dont on a la gestion (fusse t-il à l'origine d'une initiative privée) pour promouvoir ses intérêts personnels cela s'appelle "un conflit d'intérêt" => Aucun des Hôtels, restaurants, Etc... nous appartient ou est sous notre gestion (Toutes les coordonnées affichées sur le site sont les coordonnées directs des proprietaries et eux seuls ! )

Notion de "Portail Touristique" définition officielle:

Il a pour but la promotion de l'offre touristique en France & à l'étranger. Lessaintes-booking présente l'ensemble des acteurs économiques et touristiques des deux îles de l'archipel ainsi que la promotion des hauts lieux touristiques (petite précision, "Booking" veut dire "réservation" ce qui est parfaitement le cas dans le site puisque les clients réservent directement auprès des proprietaries... on n'est pas une centrale de réservation mais un Annuaire des Services !)

Enfin regardez mieux le site... et dites-moi où il dépasse notre mandat et où il sert nos intérêts personnels !

Les Saintes (talk) 13:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello, K7L! Have you seen this discussion? You've been mentioned as a good candidate for adminship. I think your comment would be appreciated there. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hard to say whether I'd be a good candidate. While I meet some of the criteria, relatively little of my activity here has been actively cleaning up vandalism; I've been mostly trying to get my home region Windsor-Quebec corridor and everything under it to "usable". K7L (talk) 04:50, 8 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's up to you. We think you'd be a good candidate, but if you would rather not have the tools you'd get as an admin, let us know and just keep doing what you're doing. Having admin tools doesn't actually require that you use them, though; it just means you can, if you come across spam pages, for example. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

The question of whether "active, but not doing anything that requires the tools" is problematic is still open at Wikivoyage talk:Administrator nominations#De-adminship. I don't object to the nomination, but that discussion should probably be allowed to run its course. K7L (talk) 17:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

That's fair. Please feel free to comment there if you have a view on this (I didn't check whether you'd already commented). Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

I see you've tagged a few articles for deletion so they can be replaced with rewritten versions. I thought you were an admin, then saw the two threads on your user page on the subject. I'd be more than happy to start a nomination, which would probably save some time for you and would be a benefit for the site - let me know if that would be worthwhile for you to have access to a few additional buttons. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi, K7L. You always make such helpful edits! But I notice you sometimes use footnote-style external links, as you did here. That's a deprecated style of external linking. Please keep in mind that only front-linking is used on WV nowadays.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

If I may, I'm not sure those links meet our external link policy anyway. We don't usually provide sources at all for statements like those. (If we did, in fact, I might even argue that they should be footnote-style links!) Powers ^(talk) 15:50, 7 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm very impressed with WV:Joke articles/Time travel so far - collaborative "humor" articles are often cringe-worthy, but the Life of Bryan reference and the outline status tag in particular struck me as brilliant. Nicely done! -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:49, 1 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Have you read Asterix books?, they have some commentary that is very appropriate to this sort of article.. BTW I've tried with some of my efforts (including when I forgot to log in) to put some genuine 'history' in.. Henc the phone number for Gamages is "period" genuine.. I would strongly suggest putting some genuine historical curosities in alongside the satire. :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:42, 1 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I haven't looked at the Asterix books, but Gamages [5] is "HOLborn 8484"; apparently, this is the first exchange in the London director area to switch to dial, in 1927? K7L (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I might ask the WP:REFDESK for some other curiosities to include. Already thought of an unusal do item, but might need someone familar with how Tourism in the USSR worked prior to 1991 or so, to tweak it ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

WV:Joke articles/Time travel#Buy doesn't look right... half the section is about one city in one time period (London, 1900s). Is there nothing worth buying in any other place or time? I'd love to see what the future has in store, for instance, and the past should have opportunities to buy Manhattan for $24, purchase beaver pelts in the New World, or obtain items of value from the natives in return for firewater, glass beads or other questionable offerings. K7L (talk) 19:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

No objections to splitting the London related content to a sub article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	"No duty is more urgent than that of returning THANKS." So thank you for all the excellent work that you do here. Keep up your good work! Saqib (talk) 15:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Could you possibly carefully split the London related content to a separate article for me? It's getting to be of sufficient length that in places it's overwhelming what's supposed to be an outline travel topic. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

This is going better than expected :), at this rate you'll have to ring Scholastic or Random House to get it in print XD XD ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Wikivoyage:Joke_articles/Time_travel/Latin_phrasebookShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:15, 8 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Oddly, there is a machine translation on Google for Latin. No idea if it's accurate, but it might be enough to make a joke. That said, some of the phrases would be different in the Roman era; instead of "my hovercraft is full of eels" we may need "my chariot is full of eels". K7L (talk) 12:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

"Romans Go Home!" ? Sorry that sketch in Life of Brian, is why I am not necessarily a fan of machine translation for older languages. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

The sketch I had in mind was from the TV series and began "London 1971, the British Empire lay in ruins..." and has a Hungarian walk into a British tobacconist's shop with a Hungarian phrasebook of such deficient quality that its publishers are put on trial as criminals before the end of the programme. "My hovercraft is full of eels", "Would you like to come back to my place, bouncy bouncy" and "I will not buy this record, it is scratched" are a few of the translated phrases. K7L (talk) 15:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

w:Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#A_Jest_in_Serious_EarnestShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:58, 10 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

That's only half the topic, as it affects time travellers. There are also huge differences between eras in the *same* country. Thou dost be aware, perchance? K7L (talk) 16:32, 10 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ye Jest? For sure must phrase of era past, differ up that of speech pres-ent; (Last is sounded as prez-ANT, with a slight pause, very RSC way of doing it but.. ) I'd suggest commenting in the ref-desk thread as well, or ask for suggestions. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I forgot we had a medical tourism article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for vastly improving the YYZ page. Antiv31 (talk) 09:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L, thanks for pointing out the Nfld/Labrador map. I'll fix it up this weekend. I'm a bit confused about the status of the Lewisport-Cartwright ferry -- are you saying it's just freight now and doesn't do passengers? Thanks -Shaundd (talk) 13:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

No, the passengers are still carried - but no freight is taken on at Lewisporte#By ship for delivery to Cartwright (Labrador) and Goose Bay because the Trans-Labrador Highway largely took care of that when the last piece was completed in 2009. Instead, freight is being put onto the ship at both Lewisporte and Goose Bay for a long string of really tiny coastal native villages with no road. See http://labradorferry.ca as the primary source, a bit of searching for news reports of the era would likely turn up some indicating that Lewisporte has lost some jobs as it's loading less freight for fewer communities now that Cartwright and Goose Bay are on the Trans-Labrador Highway. K7L (talk) 15:41, 3 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

The updated map is up. I removed the ferry link between Lewisporte and Cartwright as I couldn't find it on any regularly scheduled service. -Shaundd (talk) 05:25, 5 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Should I remove the Lewisporte-Cartwright crossing from the various "#By sea" sections? K7L (talk) 05:11, 6 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sure, I finally found some confirmation that it was shut down in a CBC News article. It looks like the ferry was already removed from Labrador#Get in (or perhaps was never listed). -Shaundd (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Maybe http://www.tw.gov.nl.ca/ferryservices/schedules/h_goosebay_nain.html is what's left - service from Cartwright to a few other points on the Labrador coast, but with Goose Bay as the main point to load cargo onto the ship for the remote outports. K7L (talk) 01:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I hear what you say. I lean towards it being an obvious danger so it wouldn't need a warning box. Maybe there could be a brief message in a warning box saying you can drown if you slip and end up in the water, and then a longer description of the dangers outside a warning box. -Shaundd (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

If I understand correctly, the non-obvious danger is that it's isn't just that one might slip... it's possible to be swept off the rocks into the ocean by a particularly severe wave. That makes conditions more dangerous there than at countless other oceanside locations at which a voyager could fall into water and drown. It's the non-obvious risk that belongs in the box. K7L (talk) 01:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'll give it some thought. I still think it should be obvious, but I also have family in Halifax and learned about the ocean and its dangers from a young age. -Shaundd (talk) 05:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Glad to see you are linking in some previous years articles.

Some thoughts I have are :

• Planet of The Apes (if I can find more information).
• Worlds inhabitied, by furry, scalian and other anthromoprhic beings...

There is some overlap between this and other topics so....

Also what about worlds with various constructed languages? Elvish comes to mind immediately, but there are other lanaguges like Lappan (i.e what rabbits in Watership Down allegedly spoke) etc.

Also although not quite interdimensional in the sense you might think, what about worlds where the conception is a human world seen from a non-human perspective? Hmm... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Feel free to split some of my ideas there :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Could you explain your edit of the Sittwe article?

Of course we could use single words to describe the point about something, but then this wiki would be boring to read and without any personal experiences. If a restaurant is good value for money, this should be mentioned, shouldn't it?

Cheers

Ceever (talk) 15:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

That really depends whose opinion is being expressed... sometimes we do find that restaurateurs and hôteliers post here to claim their own products are "good value for money", which tells us nothing. Better to state factually what is being sold, and at what approximate price without fluff or promotional language. There's no requirement to use single words as description if adding more conveys useful information. "Try this restaurant for fresh fish" really doesn't say anything more factually than "Fresh fish" on its own, for instance, but we might want a proper address (with the street and number) and a telephone number, among other details which are currently incomplete. And no, there's no requirement to be neutral (as this is not an encyclopaedia) but do be fair.

Overall, what you'd contributed looks good.

I'd only edited the page because there are other issues, such as incorrectly-formatted telephone numbers. If I were to call this place from home (+1 613-54X-XXXX) would dialling (043) 22385 get me anything? Probably not, if I"m in another country, eh? I suspect I'd need to dial my country's prefix for an outbound overseas call + 95 43 22385. Do I need the leading 0, or is that for domestic trunk calls only? Certainly I need the country code (it looks like Burma is +95) and the area code (which looks to be 43 not 043?). The whole page needs to be cleaned up, so that the telephone numbers are in international format (+95 43 22385) because we need to serve the voyager, who very likely will be calling internationally or from a mobile telephone.

If I got this wrong, please go ahead and change it. K7L (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your continued cleanup on Lanesborough. For some reason it kept reverting a lot of the changes you would make when I put an edit through.--3family6 (talk) 01:38, 27 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	this star for you Drancakova.barb1 (talk) 15:46, 8 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

I'm trying to follow up on false positives for the dead link bot so I can get the bot fixed for future executions, but with regards to this report, http://www.barstowrailmuseum.org/ comes up as a DNS error in my browser, and a Google search for that URL seems to be only turning up results at web archive sites. Are you seeing a working web site when you go to that URL? -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:10, 11 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

The 'whois' lists two authoritative domain name servers; one returns a valid IP address, while the other refuses to work at all. When I click on the link, it opens perfectly normally as a valid web page for the Western American Rail Museum (WARM) "[warmword.gif] 685 North First Street Barstow, CA 92311 Mailing Address: POB 703, Barstow, CA 92312 (760) 256-WARM Open to Public 11am - 4pm, Friday, Saturday & Sunday email: [email protected] updated 07/08/2011..."

$ nslookup www.barstowrailmuseum.org ns1.wordandpicture.com

Server: ns1.wordandpicture.com

Address: 174.136.42.94#53

• • server can't find www.barstowrailmuseum.org: REFUSED

$ nslookup www.barstowrailmuseum.org ns2.wordandpicture.com

Server: ns2.wordandpicture.com

Address: 174.136.35.60#53

www.barstowrailmuseum.org canonical name = barstowrailmuseum.org.

Name: barstowrailmuseum.org

Address: 174.136.35.59

The travel for rail enthusiasts topic is a new article, the links shouldn't be rotten this soon? K7L (talk) 01:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I'll need to do some additional investigation to see what's going on. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

Looks like this one took a turn for the worse... now both DNS servers are refusing enquiries. It's now showing as broken here. K7L (talk) 12:32, 12 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

This doesn't seem to be an entirely isolated incident - the "Ridgeway Golf Club" link in the Hollister (California) article has/had a similar issue. Inas suggested having the bot create a database of dead URLs and only flag those that have multiple failures over a long period, which might be the only way to really know if something is really dead or just temporarily mis-configured. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:01, 12 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

Maybe they did fix it after all:

$ nslookup www.barstowrailmuseum.org ns1.wordandpicture.com

Server: ns1.wordandpicture.com

Address: 174.136.35.59#53

www.barstowrailmuseum.org canonical name = barstowrailmuseum.org.

Name: barstowrailmuseum.org

Address: 174.136.35.59

$ nslookup www.barstowrailmuseum.org ns2.wordandpicture.com

Server: ns2.wordandpicture.com

Address: 174.136.35.60#53

www.barstowrailmuseum.org canonical name = barstowrailmuseum.org.

Name: barstowrailmuseum.org

Address: 174.136.35.59

As your writing style on the April articles was nice, I thought I'd aksk if you were able to help write this serious attempt at a travel topic on Paranormal Tourism. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)Reply

See here Not sure if you care but "falo" is "I speak" in Portuguese. My Portuguese is not good enough for the conversation on pt.wp but I know that much. User:Danial Carrero and I have been speaking both on wikt: if you want to talk to him there--he's very helpful. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Yep, you had it right the first time around. Acer (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Could be massively expanded but I don't know where to start.

Added the RAF Musuem as i'd made a recent visit. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:10, 30 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L, I just suggested pulling Bancroft (Ontario), Maynooth, Haliburton Highlands and Algonquin Provincial Park into one subregion on the Eastern Ontario talk page. Would like to hear your thoughts. Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Although it is wholly in Nunatsiavut not sure we want to make that article a region with lots of small city articles (unless you have plans to expand). Maybe should be in hierarchy part of Labrador. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:10, 18 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Move it if you like. I have no intention of expanding, I just created this as discussion in Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates#Labrador suggested the absence of articles for Labrador's two national parks was holding the main Labrador article back from guide status. K7L (talk) 14:23, 18 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

re: Special:Diff/3138692/3139017, when I try to hit http://www.env.gov.nl.ca/env/parks/wer/r_mpe/index.html I get a 404 with the message "The system cannot find the path specified." I assume from your edit that the page comes up successfully for you - do you get redirected to a new URL, or does it come up successfully at the existing URL? I'd like to make the bot as reliable as possible, so it would be good to better understand what happened in this case. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:11, 28 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Both links were working when I created the Trepassey and the Irish Loop article four days ago. They're now both 404 because gov.nl.ca moved the pages without leaving a redirect. I still had the old page in browser cache , so Mistaken Point mistakenly looked fine from here. My mistake, mes apologies. K7L (talk) 01:22, 28 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the quick response - no apology necessary, I was just following up to figure out if I needed to fix code. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:27, 28 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

I've created an article for Trans Canada Trail, and would appreciate any contributions you might have. Ground Zero (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L. Is there any relatively simple way to run a "find and replace" command on all of the Hebrew Wikivoyage articles without me having to install some special bot that only runs on a non-Windows operating system? I am especially hoping that there might be a built-in tool which would enable me, as an admin, to make such a change easily.

This needs to be done mainly because we had to change a specific parameter name in the listing templates and therefore now we need to replace occurrences of the old parameter with the new one over the entire website. Unfortunately, the only two techy Hebvoy members capable of making this change seem to be too busy to help with this in the near future. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:19, 20 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

There currently isn't anything on the server to do this. I recall User:LtPowers had used a MediaWiki extension to replace ==Get out== with ==Go next== on a huge number of articles in 2012, but that was before the project was moved from Wikivoyage.ev's servers to Wikimedia.

I don't know of any reason why a 'bot (such as pywikibot) should require a "non-Windows operating system". Python is available for all platforms. K7L (talk) 19:08, 20 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

K7L, as far as I remember, from the conversations I've had before about this with some of the most techy Hebrew-speaking Wikipedians, installing such a bot is not easy. Do you know by any chance of an easy guide that explains how to get such a bot installed and set up to do such tasks? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

There's mw:Manual:Pywikibot/replace.py which would run under Windows, but you'd need to download Python first. K7L (talk) 16:28, 25 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Okay I had a chuckle, but do you really think this is the type of stuff we want in mainspace? By the way, do you happen to know what dual citizens residing outside the US have to do if they take for example a temp job? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:02, 3 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

Re-word it if you like. The tax policies on banning expatriates permanently from the country for having renounced US citizenship are real, though. US dual citizens are forced to file US tax returns annually, even if they have no "temp job", even if they're living in some other country as a citizen of that country. Look up "FATCA" - basically, the US is blackmailing other countries' banks (or even other governments) to hand over personal and confidential banking info on their dual citizens. That's going over badly in places like Campobello Island which are clearly non-US but where many people who have never lived in the US and have no intention of living there have dual citizenship due to a quirk of geography (the closest hospital is in Maine and that gets "USA" onto the birth certificates - oops!)

The odd part of all of this? A US dual citizen living and working in Canada potentially has more US federal tax liability than a US citizen in Puerto Rico - even though the US government is providing nothing for these people as they have no US presence. There are treaties which prevent dual taxation of the same revenue (so many of the affected people don't actually owe US income tax as their home countries have already taxed them to death) but filing everything twice is an expensive exercise (in tax preparation cost) and an invasion of privacy. K7L (talk) 16:14, 3 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

I understand. It's only that I have family who is dual citizen US/German and who are slowly but surely getting to the age where their activities become tax relevant. I would still refrain from using the word "Republikflucht" and while it may be tempting to editorialize on those policies, we might wish to be a bit more neutral in tone. Otherwise I can write a fifty page essay on the evils of the German blood based citizenship law and the insane definition of someone whose ancestors have been living in Russia for the last four hundred years being "more German" than someone whose ancestors came shortly after the founding of the Bundesrepublik or even earlier. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi K7L, yesterday I entered a contribution to the volunteering site, which you deleted with the comment that I should't link to our website. As everybody else in that section is linking to their own website, I was wondering why my contribution was deleted. —The preceding comment was added by LindaAndersonVoWo (talk • contribs)

You may want to look at the article's talk page, specifically Talk:Volunteer travel#Massive deletion. We don't allow organisations to add themselves; we had removed most of the existing listings from the article because it was (and is) being widely misused for advertising and self-promotion. See Wikivoyage:Don't tout, Wikivoyage:Words to avoid, Wikivoyage:Be fair, Wikivoyage:Welcome, business owners and Wikivoyage:Welcome, tourism professionals. K7L (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC) :Reply

Thank you, I had a look at the articles you send me. It says that I can list a business if it's not for advertising reasons. Listing Volunteer World is not for self promotion but to give your readers added value when it come to the topic of volunteering. You could describe it as the air bnb of volunteering, hence it allow your readers to gain a broad overview of all the different countries and area that they could do volunteer work in. The article also said, that a business can be added if it's in form of a listing, so adding it like that should be fine, right? Thank you for your time. —The preceding comment was added by LindaAndersonVoWo (talk • contribs)

The travel topic Volunteer travel has always been problematic as there's a long history of organisations misusing it for self-promotion, sending people out without the appropriate visas or even using "volunteering" as a vehicle to sell travel for profit by charging for placements. Organisations adding themselves are problematic as we have no means of verifying their bona fides. We have therefore removed all but a handful of listings, and may need to remove everything if the self-promotion continues. See Talk:Volunteer travel; there has been lengthy discussion there of the problems surrounding this one article. K7L (talk) 14:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

I see you removed Swiss Chalet/St. Hubert from the fast food list because they're "table service". They're primarily takeout, though, which I thought counts on the fast food list. --Robkelk (talk) 00:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

It just seemed odd to list them twice, and we already have them on the list at Chain restaurants in the United States and Canada. K7L (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

That's an "edge case" issue, I guess. May as well leave them where they've been. --Robkelk (talk) 00:24, 15 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

From the guy who wrote about "Worthlos" and "Blechistan", your comment about making up nonsense is pretty rich. I am in Turkey at the moment where access to Wikipedia (but not Wikivoyage) is blocked by the government, so I make no apology for not having access to the same sources ad you do. Ground Zero (talk) 05:33, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

I find that the charm of the fictional example, though. It's less likely to step on anybody's toes. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:53, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

As I explained in the original post on the project talk page, I found it to be a very confusing way to deal with a subject that is very complicated. Using "Feb 31, 2008" as the date was even more nonsensical. The page now uses real examples. I don't think that reality can step on people's toes. It just is. And we are dealing in reality here, for the most part. Ground Zero (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

As soon as you start using real dates and real currencies, you're claiming the text to be factual. That imposes a higher standard on everything. The price of "widgets" in an accounting textbook is arbitrary, as these are a clearly-indicated placeholder for training purposes and not real tangible goods. Likewise, a "worthlo" is merely a placeholder for a currency whose worth is low. Conversely, a Zimbabwean Dollar is a real currency which had an official nominal exchange rate of Z$30000 == US$1 in Feb 2008, but which was losing at least half of its value weekly throughout that month, trading at Z$20,000,000=US$1 by the end of the month on parallel markets. If we are to use the Zim dollar as a real-world example of how currency devaluation and hyperinflation can go badly wrong, this is a real currency so we use real information instead of presenting fiction as fact. Fictional "widgets" should be clearly marked as such. Always.

I disagree with using merely "Feb 2008" instead of a specific day-of-month in a case like the Zim dollar, which was losing value rapidly week-to-week (or even day-to-day). Under these conditions, a "Feb 1" price would be off by the better part of an order of magnitude by "Feb 29" (yes, 2008 was a leap year so one extra day of hyperinflation). At the worst point in the collapse of the Zimbabwean dollar, prices in Z$ were rising by 98% in a single day. Because these are actual historic events (and not "widgets" or placeholders), if we portray them, we must do so factually.

If we are dealing in reality here, there is no "for the most part". Either the content is factual or it is not. Renaming "widgets" to "Zimbabwe dollars" but keeping the numbers fictional is actually worse, as the content is still wrong but the clear flags that signal to the reader that this is merely an exercise have been stripped. The same principles apply in disaster training: "Hurricane Pam" (2004) was a fictional exercise used to train local authorities to respond to what became Hurricane Katrina (2005). Any communications related to "Hurricane Pam" would therefore be clearly labelled as training material: "Exercise. Exercise. Hurricane Pam has made landfall at Category 3 on the Saffir-Simpson scale and the city is under one metre of water..." can't be processed as a false alarm, War of The Worlds style, if it's clearly labelled as a test message. Removing the label and leaving the fictional information in place has a name; it's called a false alarm. We don't do that. K7L (talk) 15:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Wikivoyage is neither an accounting textbook, a disaster training manual nor an account of an alien invasion in progress. It is an online travel guide "that anyone can edit", so no-one would try to cite us an an authoritative source about currency events that happened long ago. I agree that it is better to use real examples. Thank you for helping to do that - the project page is much better now. I added the comment "for the most part" only because of articles like Wikivoyage:Joke articles/Narnia. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 15:17, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

K7L, you may be interested in contributing to this discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

I understand why you edited the warning box. But I just did what needed to be done a long time ago. We should advise against all travel there. I've been there, and I had to ride in an armored car. Does that really sound like a place we should allow people to waltz on into without an avoid all travel notice? —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talk • contribs)

If you intend to warn about crime or violence, then post a warning which explicitly raises that specific issue. The wording you used advised against all travel to an entire country because of one volcano, which doesn't make clear that your concerns involve gun crime. K7L (talk) 00:46, 7 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

From Libertarianmoderate,

K7L, I was wondering if I could get your help on something, given that we have worked together well in the past. Iraq and Syria have undergone massive territorial changes in recent years that have made our region maps of them outdated. For Syria, I believe that we need to divide up the Syrian Desert region into two new zones: Syrian Kurdistan/Rojava, and the Southeastern Desert, as the experience for any suicidally-brave travelers in the two areas would be wildly different, as one is under a Kurdish-dominated democracy and the other is increasingly under the control of the Assad Regime.

For Iraq, similar changes need to be made. I think that the Iraqi Desert region should include Ramadi, as it is the capital of Al-Anbar Governorate. When it comes to Iraqi Kurdistan, Kirkuk is no longer under Kurdish control, so it should not be included in the Iraqi Kurdistan region on the map.

As for the name "Al-Jazira", I believe it does not accurately describe the area. In antiquity, the area was part of Assyria, a name more people would easily recognize than "Al-Jazira". I think that part should be renamed to "Assyria," as most historical sites there (such as Nineveh in Mosul) are Assyrian.

Southern Iraq, referred to as "Lower Mesopotamia" by the region map, actually represents the nerve center of historical Mesopotamian civilizations, not just a "lower" part. For this reason, I believe it should be renamed to simply "Mesopotamia."

Western Sahara also needs a region map, given that it's divided in two (also, that situation is unlikely to change in the near future). The east is controlled by the Polisario Front, so we should refer to it as the Sahrawi Arab Dem. Republic, and the West as "Moroccan Western Sahara"

Yemen, on the other hand, is far more complicated than Iraq and Syria. While a redrawing is warranted, it would be impractical to attempt now.

With these changes, I believe that (once these places are stable again) we can provide a more accurate picture of what to expect when travelling to these areas. —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talk • contribs)

I'd hesitate to use region names which favour one side in a dispute – for instance, claiming one side to be "democratic" just because they said so themselves is meaningless at best, one-sided at worst. Be fair and, if you need to make major changes to regional boundaries, it may be worth trying to get consensus by opening a discussion on one of the affected talk pages and posting a link to the discussion on Wikivoyage:Requests for comment. (Another option is to raise the issue in the pub.)

I'm not an expert on the Middle East and it does look like the question of which side currently controls some piece of land on the front lines is a moving target. By all means, do update articles to reflect news reports of the changing situation on the ground. At worst, you may end up with "the eastern sector of X is under the military occupation of Y as of date D..." as the fighting continues. K7L (talk) 17:28, 18 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Please avoid sniping at other editors in the comment line. There was nothing in what I wrote on Napanee that was "obsessing" about Greater Napanee. Someone driving to Napanee will see signs to "Greater Napanee", so it is worth mentioning.

Your attack on my contributions in the pub ("copypasta", "copying a few entire paragraphs verbatim from Wikipedia", "merely cribbing answers from the encyclopaedia and posting them here", "Dumping verbatim copy-paste text") is another matter altogether. Do you really think that this article on Hawkesbury is more useful for travellers than this version? Or that this article on Wilno is more useful for travellers than this version? If for some bizarre reason you do, then I encourage you to read Wikivoyage:The traveller comes first, an underlying principle of Wikivoyage,because I think you have clearly lost sight of that.

Please remember that we are all volunteers there trying to build a travel guide. Attacking other editors' contributions makes this a crappier place in which to work, and hurts the project. Ground Zero (talk) 02:11, 9 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

The same is the case with this edit. He/she needs to be doing the consensus–building before undoing my edit in such a way. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:49, 21 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

And before you continue to invent statements in the pub, I would appreciate it if you responded to the above comments in this thread in a reasonable manner. I'm okay if people disagree with the whole requested articles thing, but first you need to properly and reasonably build consensus to reinstate one page for requests, and also not continually force your own opinions about the matter down others' throats. Thank you. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

As I've demonstrated in the pub, I in no way "misused" the roll back function. I'd like a retraction of that false accusation. Thank you. Ground Zero (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your help with these fixes. I was starting to despair that I'd be finished by Friday. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:54, 18 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I noticed your user page is empty. Would you like me to build you one? Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I just had a very clever - or very stupid - idea and wanted to confirm if it was right: is K7L a postcode? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:16, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The K7L postcode covers a central portion of the City of Kingston (Ontario), including the high street; the university is K7L 3N6. K7L (talk) 13:20, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Cool. Ta for answering. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:26, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for helping adjust the new listing. I noticed you made your edit almost right after mine, and you added coordinates. What did you do to find the coordinates so quickly? Is there a tool for this? I had been holding off adding coordinates to listings which only had addresses because I assumed it would be time-consuming. Thanks, ARR8 (talk) 03:26, 21 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, there are a few tools to get co-ordinates from the map: Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps#Geocoding listings K7L (talk) 03:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you. ARR8 (talk) 03:33, 21 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Care to explain this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Halloween&oldid=3616044

Thanks for these edits, I was just about to add some discussion points, when you edited :)

Some other discussion points (Not sure how much of this would be of relevance to the Traveller though which is the focus in the guide, and we naturally don't want to be paranoid spoilsports :) ).

• Costume choice. After dark visibility answered. Another safety concern was to do with 'fire safety', There was a fuss a couple of years ago in the UK, that many many party store costumes weren't anything like as fireproof as those professional performers at staged events would use.

• Candles/lanterns/fireworks. There was some advice to home event stagers in the UK about using 'LED' and candle effect bulbs instead of real flame. Probably of less relevance to the casual traveller. Not sure if the stuff about parental supervision, should extend to the 'watch out for real flames' talk. Related would be the use of things like sparklers, given that the US has widely differing laws about low-level fireworks.

• 'Stranger danger' - Most Parents will probably have had the talk with their kids about only going to lit houses, or neighbours they know, so this isn't necessarily relevant to the article. My concern was more to do with the adults 'meet in a bar' and due to the alcohol and party environment end up dropping their guard or common sense...

• Yes, Halloween does bring out the exceptionally rare 'crazies', but usually law enforcement is typically well ahead of the curve on this, and the 'hysteria' about so called 'dark-cult-rings' are something that should have been left in Salem, hundreds of years ago?

• The 'Don't Try This at Home' talk? Yes parades and shows will have staged illusions, but these are by trained performers with a very defined safety codes and multiple risk assessments. Alcohol will impair reasoning, and skill, so should the traveller be forewarned about the "bar-stunt" that should be declined?

Also per the comments in Fringe phonemena there are many (entirely non supernatural) reasons why abandoned buildings are sealed. An impressionable group, in a dark, possibly unsound building, coupled with some "Halloween Spirits" for courage isn't going to end well...

• I mentioned the "crazies" previously. Are there any Halloween specific scams to be aware as well? I seem to recall some article a few years back that mentioned about so called 'medium' scams around Halloween...

Maybe there should be some expansion of the 'history' guide stuff?

BTW I'm surprised the article did expand as much as it did.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The fortune tellers have gone from bad to "medium"? Why didn't I see that coming?

Not sure how much of "don't try this at home" is obvious. I'd thought of suggesting that some clown who walks into a bank or credit union on Hallow'een to ask for a loan will be told to remove the mask, but then thought there's no point in pointing out the obvious... and removing the mask before stepping out into traffic might be more of the same.

Open flames are likely not all that common, with the exception of placing candles in jack-o-lanterns. There are more candles at Christmas and Hannukah. I've never heard of fireworks being seasonal to Hallow'een - maybe "a penny for the old Guy" or fireworks on nation's birthday celebrations (such as July 4 in the US or Canada Day in that country) would be more common for fireworks, or maybe Victoria Day.

Crime and common scams against adults in bars are issues in any season; if anything, New Year's Eve would be the worst of the problems with intoxicated persons. I tried looking for "Halloween scams" and just came up with common scams#Event scams and mail-order costumes which don't show up as advertised by "pop up" Internet vendors. I presume you mean "scams" as actual monetary loss, and not just presenting fiction or exaggeration as the "true story" of why some place is haunted in order to sell a few more tours?

There's likely room to expand in certain areas - "Understand" and the historic background, more things to see or do, maybe a bit more info on making a costume - but I don't see a need for more "Stay safe" warnings. K7L (talk) 04:07, 23 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes I did mean monetary loss scams, as well as 'fake mediums', or those that offer to remove (invented) curses (for a fee.). I suppose it depends on the region.

The "bar stunt" comment was more to do with the "Hey why don't you....<some dangerous stunt>?" bravado then it was about getting ripped off, but again probably either obvious or common to all seasons.

I might add something about 'masking', given that some jurisdictions have public order laws about masks in public places. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:30, 23 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Found something on Consumer Reports - https://www.consumerreports.org/babies-kids/halloween-costume-tips-to-keep-kids-safe/ I am not sure if it's appropriate to link it in the relevant part of the article.

On the issue of raod saftey Also found :- https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/smart-road-tips-for-halloween-car-safety/

16:06, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh dear. Two whole long lists of "look both ways before you cross the street" posted for Hallow'een. I look at these and the first idea which they bring to mind is to go trick-or-treating dressed as Captain Obvious. Obviously I shall need a costume... K7L (talk) 16:21, 29 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks.. I got my answer, if there are obvious then they don't need to be linked in the article :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:02, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

As I understand it, you don't want to be an administrator. However, you could become a patroller, which would give you access to the recent changes patrol and enable you to quickly rollback edits. I can't make the change; a bureaucrat is needed to make the change, but I'm sure one of the bureaucrats would be willing to make you a patroller if you wanted to be. How would you feel about it?

This is the last one of these I'll do for now, so the bureaucrats don't get overloaded or anything. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:51, 18 November 2018 (UTC)Reply