Talk:Ansan Voyage Tips and guide

This article is/was the subject of an educational assignment in Fall 2015: "Information Sociology Project: Exploring Korea through Wikivoyage". See here for details. The course instructor is User:Piotrus.

Contents

Hi, everyone. "Get around" is supposed to explain how to travel around the town (as opposed to going to or leaving it). A list of points of interest is not the function of this section. Instead, anything that's interesting to see should be in "See", unless it's primarily a place for activities, in which case it can be in "Do". If the points of interest aren't in Ansan but are nearby, they can either be put in a "Nearby" subsection of "See" or "Do" or perhaps in "Go next", but they don't belong in "Get around". Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 14 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Is it really essential to divide this city into districts? I don't mean is it administratively divided into districts: I mean does it serve the traveler to create separate district articles, or would it make more sense to just put all listings in this article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Well, it does have no less than 8 metro stops :) But like most Korean satellite towns, it is primary for high rise apartments and not visitor attractions.

I have never visited Ansan myself, however I'm pretty sure that all the interesting aspects can be comfortably contained in one article. If there number of attractions does indeed become unmanageable then of course we can start looking at district creations.

Currently we only have 18 items in see/do (and not all looking that interesting). I'd say hold off for now. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

User:Misokkkim, User:Gong Ju-young, User:Ji-soo Seo, User:Shinae Hyun, User:112.155.245.120, User:Ypsilon and User:Piotrus, I agree with Andrewssi2's point of view and propose to delete the tiny stub of an Ansan/Sangnok article and eliminate the "Districts" section of the Ansan article as unnecessary at this stage. Are we all agreed on this? If not, please argue your point within the next 24 hours or so. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

We districtify cities only when we have to, not whenever we can. Ansan is not even close to need to be to districtified. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I agree. I'd like to point out to everyone that in spite of its tremendous population, Karachi is not districted on this site because it was determined that there wouldn't be enough points of interest in the various possible districts, although the city as a whole is quite interesting to visit. By contrast, Seattle is districted, even though it's much smaller (but still a city of substantial size). Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I added a Merge template to the article. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I suggest we just do the merge and redirect, also redirect the names of the 2 districts mentioned in the "Districts" section of this article, and then delete the "Districts" section. Any objections? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

It would appear that the classroom assignment is not taking this discussion into account :) Ansan/Danwon has also been created today.

User:Piotrus : Could you inform your students please? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I went ahead and merged the districts. User:Piotrus : I know your talk page says that you should be contacted on Wikipedia, but if you are running a school project on Wikivoyage then it should be incumbent upon you to monitor your notifications on Wikivoyage. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Andrewssi2, Ikan Kekek: My apologies, I just do not have time to log in to Wikivoyage daily, so I missed this discussion. If you cannot ping me on en wiki, it may take me days to reply here. I have no problem with the mergers, we will try to develop the districts section first. Thanks for the tips, I will tell the students to focus on expanding the main (Ansan) page. By the way, can you tell me what are the guidelines/best practices for entries about museums and individual monuments? I originally thought to encourage students to write separate entries on some of them, but looking at British Museum and such I came to the conclusion that this is not Wikivoyage style, right? --Piotrus (talk) 05:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article? The short answer is that individual attractions rarely merit entire Wikivoyage articles, and there are no instances of museums having their own article, but do look at the somewhat longer explanation on the linked policy page. You may also want to look at Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians, which outlines some of the main differences between this site and Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sights such as museums and monuments go in the See section, and preferably be entered as listings. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:47, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I erased this section. Because Ansan is the highest crime rate in South Korea. So I don't agree that Ansan is safe.Gong Ju-young (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

That's not a reason to erase the section, let alone the important codes that follow it (starting with "IsPartOf"). Instead, you should edit the section to provide useful information. I started by inputting the information you've stated here, but you could help a lot by indicating whether the highest rate in South Korea is actually really high, whether there are areas of town to avoid or avoid at certain times of the day or night, and whether there are particular crimes that happen or affect travelers more than others. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:53, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I suspect that because Ansan has a high percentage of foreign workers (from Asia) there is a perception among Koreans that it is high in crime. This article gives some good context. Koreans (incorrectly for the most part) associate immigration with crime.

Unless someone can find any statistics to suggest otherwise (apparently w:Ansan doesn't have any) then I would feel more safe in Ansan than most Western cities. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:11, 25 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Also this article w:Crime_in_South_Korea suggests that the worst crime for tourists in Korea (murder and drugs) happens in some of the poorer areas of Seoul. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:13, 25 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

In my experience crime positively correlates with discrimination, poverty and the size of a city (the last one the weakest of these correlations). Immigration per se has nothing to do with it. Hence Managua has a higher crime rate than Granada (Nicaragua) despite the fact that Granada has a higher percentage of immigrants. Also, when assessing the relative crime rate, do keep in mind that many readers won't be from Korea and would like a comparison to some place they know. Is crime better or worse than in big cities of Western Europe? What about a comparison to - say - Baltimore (or any other big US city for that matter). On the global level we have the murder rate as the most useful proxy for overall crime (murders are hard to hide, after all). Judging by that, Korea is comparable to Western Europe and safer than - say - the USA. But I thank you all for your work, I also made some mistakes when I first started editing here. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Stores that are of interest to a visitor should receive listings. Other stores should not be listed. Compare to articles for e.g. Dallas where we don't mention every single Wallmart, either. As I don't know any of the stores, I can't do the pruning down, so please ask yourself: Which of these stores is worth mentioning in a travel guide? Best wishes. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:33, 4 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hobbitschuster, I strongly agree with your opinion. The article do not need to contain too much lists of the markets of Ansan. It would be better to remain only one which is the biggest, the most famous or the most popular one in Ansan. So, I will delete other lists except popular one.--Misokkkim (talk) 01:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)misokkkimReply

1. Enter latitude/longitude for every listing, especially in Eat/Drink.
2. Make Chinatown a listing.
3. Make the hostel a listing.
4. Select two hotels and two love motels (select the ones that are the most convenient for tourists), and make listings for them.
5. Select two "foreign markets" and make listings for them.
6. Give more details about Mongol Sikdang, like open hours/average meal price.
7. Make sure each listing has a description, especially in Buy. Say why each store is interesting. Also for Sasechulyeongmun, Gosong Pavillon, Pung Island.
8. If the City Hall is interesting for tourists, add a description explaining why. If not, remove it.
9. For each listing, find an appropriate picture at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ and link to it using an "| image=" parameter (see how I added it for Byeolmangseong Fortress). If there is no appropriate picture, go take a picture and upload it to http://commons.wikimedia.org/

Thanks! Syced (talk) 04:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

There may be extra details for Ansan to be found in the corresponding French article : https://fr.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Ansan --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

I've noticed that "Ansan-si, Gyeonggi-do" has been creeping into some of the addresses in this article. Those are default address parameters that are assumed for all addresses in this article, unless otherwise stated. They should therefore be left out every time, just as "New York, NY" should be left out of every address in the Manhattan guide, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: I think we removed most of them by now. --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

I saw that User:Pkh409 has started to add metro stations as listings. Can anyone verify this is not how we use listings on Wikivoyage?

I do sometimes add one or two listings for an important train station for entering a new area, but every metro station (10+?) would be very excessive in my opinion. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

Well, that's an interesting point. What is best practice here? Personally, I think important transport hubs should have GPS entries on the map. While listing individual bus stations may be too much, I'd support listing all train and subway stations, as well as bus terminals. Through to avoid the map clutter, is there a way to trigger layers? Could some entries be coded as transport and be switchable on and off? PS. I looked at Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it, and noticed that it seems to suggest train stations and ferry terminals are valid POIs. It's unclear on subways, and doesn't say anything about buses or bus terminals (perhaps this question should be copied to the traveller's pub?). --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

I believe there are people working on a new map control with transport POI's layer. It is very hard to read, but you will find some details in Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#Announcing_the_launch_of_Maps --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

In the Get In section list the main stations that can be reached from outside the region. In the Get Around section you should mention the companies running the transport system with a link to the website and maybe the page where there is a station and connection map. Also think about it from the visitors perspective, in the listings fro major attractions, in the direction parameter mention which is the closest Metro station. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

How can we start a review procedure on getting this article moved toward Guide? Of course there are things to fix, but how can we ask for feedback? Ping editors who previously commented on this page: @Andrewssi2, Ikan Kekek, Syced, Hobbitschuster: Thank you for any suggestions!--Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

Two specific points. First is the 'Get Around' section that only has bicycle. I think I would use Metro and taxi if I came to visit. Second is a lack of actual hotel listings. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:30, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

I have updated the list of things to do, please do everything in that list: Talk:Ansan#Please_improve_this_article. There is still a lot to do before applying for Guide. Syced (talk) 07:13, 27 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

There are still a few things that in my opinion have to be done. A Guide article should enable a traveler to visit the destination without having to read any other travel guide.

Get in and Get around: are there also other common modes of transportation and things you need to know when you use them? See: "Modern monuments and cultural institutions" has nothing listed. Eat: The restaurants in the "Other" have to be moved into the price categories and they need coordinates and addresses. Drink: Perhaps a couple more individual bars and cafés. Sleep: I believe Ansan has more individual hotels, so we should definitely list at least 3-4 more. They should be categorized into "Budget", "Mid range", "Splurge" just like the eateries are. --ϒpsilon (talk) 17:26, 17 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

I want to attach a tourist attraction's air view in Ansan. http://tourinfo.iansan.net/vr/index.jsp?language=ko&xml_name=theme_park&dir=airview This website address is this. What is the best section to add it?Gong Ju-young (talk) 09:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

You find a nice air view!I think See Section is the best to add it or link the URL.Ji-soo Seo (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

All images must be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, and copyrighted photos cannot be uploaded to Commons. I think this is probably copyrighted, in which case you can't use it here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:24, 27 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

Is it ok to link the URL?Gong Ju-young (talk) 09:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

No, I don't think so. See Wikivoyage:External links#What not to link to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: So... what sites does Wikivoyage links to? Just the home pages of see/eat/do/etc, entries and nothing else? Would this be roughly correct? --Piotrus (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

That's basically right. We link only to primary sources, except for the "same-subject" links to sister sites (Wikipedia, Commons, et al.) at the end of the article that show up in the sidebar on the left side of the article. However, there are sometimes good reasons for listings or markers in "Get in" or "Get around", such as airports, bus stations and train lines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 2 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

To everyone's notice: per message at the top of Talk:Ansan, User:Piotrus is heading a (WMF coordinated?) project in a South Korean university where the students are to learn more about Wikivoyage. That's probably why we have had some Korean newbies around here as of recently, both editing Ansan and other articles. Let's welcome them, help them out (remember, they may not have prior experience in editing wikis and their English may not be perfect), and hope they stay even after their assignment is over! ϒpsilon (talk) 12:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I don't think it is WMF coordinated, but this would be a good thing to encourage for other countries as well. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:06, 19 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Andrewssi2, Ypsilon: Hello everyone. It's not so much as WMF coordinates as WMF supported (see outreach:Global Education Program). We are going to focus on the page of Ansan, where our university is located. Please do not hesitate to tell us if we do something wrong, and offer advice. If there are any urgent problems, you may want to ping me on my Wikipedia page, which I check daily (I stop at Wikivoyage once a week or so). Cheers, --Piotrus (talk) 06:03, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'd love it if you and/or some of your students also added some information about some (other?) interesting cities in the region. Do you or they have favorite hangouts in Seoul? Perhaps you'd like to add those listings to the appropriate district article (as described and linked to in Seoul#Districts). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sooner or later, this should be possible. Not sure if in this class, but I plan on running it on a yearly basis, so sooner or later we will have no choice but to branch out :) --Piotrus (talk) 06:55, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

As was noted #We_have_some_Korean_guests_on_board above, I am running an ELS-university class, where students are improving Ansan. As I am relatively inexperienced on Wikivoyage, I'd appreciate advice on what can be improved with regards to the WV manual of style. Is there an equivalent of Wikipedia's peer review/Good Article reviews we can submit this in few weeks? What should be fixed for that?

I also have few questions from the students that I wasn't sure how best to answer:

• would a Wikivoyage article, eventually, list *all* restaurants/bars/hotels and such?
• should a museum be in the see or do section?
• should biking infrastructure (biking paths, rental bike stations) be discussed in get around? Is a GPS map of biking rental stations - on one level, very useful for a traveler - added to the Wikivoyage map? Can we write a how-to page for traveller on how to use the rental bike station (the official instructions on them and online are mostly in Korean...). --Piotrus (talk) 07:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

You shouldn't try and list *all* establishments, since we are not trying to be a 'yellow pages'. Just add a handful of interesting places at different budget levels.

Museums (at least traditional ones) should be in 'see'. The different between 'see' and 'do' is not always clear to us, so there isn't a right answer always!

A GPS biking map can be included, but if it overwhelms the article then maybe a separate itinerary article could be created. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Bike paths can also be covered in "Do", as an activity.

For article status, please have a look at Wikivoyage:City guide status. That link will show you what is required for the different statuses of Stub (nothing required for that), Outline, Usable, Guide and Star. Outline is a cinch to attain, Usable is easy, Guide is much harder and Star is an extremely demanding standard of near-perfection. I would suggest Guide as a good aspiration, but I have no idea how you'd judge the relative contributions of each student and other Wikivoyage editors in attaining the status. It's probably easiest for you to give collective credit, but that's your call. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Another general point is that the Korean education system can be somewhat prescriptive in how to complete tasks. You should emphasise that outside the set template format of the article you are actually pretty free to describe the destination in any (accurate) way you want. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:28, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Enter latitude/longitude for every listing. Make Chinatown a listing. Make the hostel a listing. Select two hotels and two love motels (select the ones that are the most convenient for tourists), and make listings for them. Select two "foreign markets" and make listings for them. Give more details about Mongol Sikdang and Lotteria, like open hours/average meal price. Syced (talk) 09:16, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

For questions of what section to put things in, a most useful guide is Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it. Nurg (talk) 10:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I would politely disagree as for cycle-paths... Yes cycling can be considered an activity, but it is also a way of getting around (Copenhagen, anybody?). So in my humble opinion it should be a judgment call whether the type of cycling is mostly something you do to get from one place to another or mostly something you do as some kind of exercise. As for listings, we have a policy to avoid negative reviews, so if a place has nothing nice to be said about it, don't list it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:05, 28 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

@June Hee Lee: Thanks for updating the climate chart with new data!

In addition to changing the data, can you also include a link to the website page where you got the data? (It's okay if the website is only in Korean.) Right now it just says "Korea Meteorological Administration", and nothing else. Since you're updating the data, it's helpful to include a link to where you got the data from. This is helpful so that in the future, someone can check whether there's newer data available. Look at how this is linked on Daejeon#Climate and Gwangju#Understand.

Format the link like [http://website.co.kr/page Text to link], which will display like "Text to link".

Thanks! --Bigpeteb (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

We have featured very few Korean destinations. Would Ansan be a Destination of the Month or Off the Beaten Path? What time of the year would the city be featured? And what is missing in the article? /Yvwv (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)Reply