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I made a proposal here to introduce a template for sections of longer routes, in order to better organise these sections, collect (and use) structured data, as well as introduce new functionality, such as a direct link to a text section from dynamic maps, or the other way around.

I would love to get some feedback on it! Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

As an update to this, I made a template here Module:SectionInfo/sandbox as well as here Module:RouteSection/sandbox.

Usage examples:

=== A section of trail from here to there ===

Distance: 21.9 km, duration: 6:30 hr, ascent: 1010 m

=== A section of trail from here to there ===

21.9 km

6:30 hr

1010 m

Let me know if you have some feedback to share!

Edit, updated the old template as well to show a few options.Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 15:59, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't like it. It takes up too much space, and there's nothing better about the template vs just typing it by hand. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm in the same boat as WhatamIdoing. This adds some slight ease of information, but other than that I don't see a lot of benefit to introducing this. Especially not considering how space-inefficient this template is as it sits. Were it significantly smaller, I would be more likely to be in favour. Also: Does all this need to be done through Wikidata and OSM when most websites and promotional material for hiking routes provide this same information already? Can't it just be copied over from that and thereby simplify this template significantly?

I do generally welcome efforts to make information more easy to find at a glimpse, and this template could potentially help, were it smaller. Based on LF Zuiderzeeroute (admittedly a cycling route), I've made a little mock-up of how I think a template with this information should be: As little text as possible, conveyed as intuitively and as non-invasive as possible. Something this size could be aligned above or below a dynamic map (which I understand from the discussion you linked, it should interact with to some extent?), whilst not taking the attention away from the article itself.
― Wauteurz (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I like Wauteurz's suggestion – it's not very intrusive and presents important information needed without taking up excessive space. //shb (t | c | m) 22:52, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's really cool! I would even use that bottom stats line for simple listings of trails. Gerode (talk) 23:11, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey! Thanks so much to both of you for the feedback.

You're absolutely right, the current version is far too bulky. And thank you for creating that mock-up!

> Also: Does all this need to be done through Wikidata and OSM when most websites and promotional material for hiking routes provide this same information already?

My thought process was this:

I first noticed that hiking itineraries were formatted inconsistently. A template seemed like a good way to standardise part of the itineraries themselves, as well as the section stats. While working on that, I learned that to display hiking trails on dynamic maps using the mapshapes template, the trail sections (from OpenStreetMap) need to be linked to Wikidata items.

That got me thinking. Could we get some additional benefits from structuring the information? Creating these sections in Wikidata provides a way to link geodata with section stats. We could compute section stats from the geodata, or use the linking to create clickable trail sections.

The alternative, as you mentioned, would be to copy the information from official websites. I could create GPX files, manually split them into sections, and write out the stats, but this wouldn't give me a direct way of linking a section on a map to a section in text. The geodata and section stats would be separate. This runs somewhat counter to the Wikimedia model of using centralised, structured data. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Right, I get the reasoning. My main worry is that we're a quite small lot of editors on this project, and only few have the capability to maintain a template that calls and calculates data from elsewhere, let alone do the configuration to make this template work for the trail (section) they want to write about. The last thing I would want is that a template gets abandoned because no-one can maintain it. If there isn't one yet, a manual overwrite might be a useful addition, so that the template can also be used by manually inserting the data it displays.
― Wauteurz (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That’s a very valid point about maintainability. I should have mentioned this earlier, but the template already supports manual data entry to address that exact issue.

You can see a demonstration here: User:Bluecoordinationfine/SectionInfo test. This way, any editor can use it without needing to use Wikidata from the get go, similarly to Markers/Listings. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Very nice! One last little gripe: I see you can switch between whether metric or imperial units are used. Would it be possible to add a conversion between the two so that you can see distances and such in both notations? No metric trail is safe from people used to thinking in imperial measurements and vice versa, after all. Either via mouseover text or in parentheses like {{convert}} should work fine for that.
― Wauteurz (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the reply!

I've made a few changes, which can be found here in Module:RouteSection/sandbox, I've added the tests in User:Bluecoordinationfine/RouteSection test. The changes are:

1. I've renamed it to RouteSection. This name is more versatile since the module can be used for any type of route (hiking, cycling, etc.).

2. Parameters are now passed through directly, so you can use templates {{m|123}} for values such as distance.

3. I've added a |convert=yes/no switch. This controls whether data pulled from Wikidata is automatically formatted with the {{convert}} template.

4. Data entered into the template takes precedence over data from Wikidata, similar to Markers and Listings.

5. I've changed the presentation to be a single line as the output.

I'll look into tables next to see if I can make the output similar to the mockup. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Instead of a |convert=yes switch (I decide for all readers whether they see both), you might consider a [convert] button (each reader decides whether to click the button and see the other option). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:42, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the suggestion! My main concern is that a clickable button would be problematic for people using screen readers, as it hides information by default.

The current approach, where the editor decides to show both values, is also more consistent with established wiki practice. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 18:19, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've added a small test here: Lapplandsleden Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's safe to say there's sufficient consensus for using this template? //shb (t | c | m) 12:04, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

btw I still have a slight preference for Wauteurz's design since I find it less intrusive and more modern, but it would still regardless be a great step in our slow process to slowly modernise our site. //shb (t | c | m) 12:19, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Same preference here. Especially the use of headings in the module's output I find undesirable, but that's personal preference.

One actual issue I see, is that this is now a module doing the work of both a module and a template. Based on how other templates and modules function, there should still be a {{Trail}} or {{TrailSection}}, that can manage manual overrides without needing to invoke the module, and present the data in an appealing manner. That also gives the advantage of not needing to meddle with the module code when trying to modernise or facelift the way this data gets presented, making long-term maintenance more accessible.

@Bluecoordinationfine, if you want me to, I'll happily make the template side based on my earlier mock-up, including actual iconography. That will require some adjustment from the module to interface nicely though, and I don't possess the skills to handle that side. I've got all the time in the world to work on it this week and should be able to get it done in a day - just let me know.
― Wauteurz (talk) 12:42, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey! That's a good comment, I haven't looked into the difference between modules and templates. And thanks a bunch for the offer! Here's my main findings from experimentation:

Headings

The problem with the headings is that that's how the majority of hiking guides are now structured, using headings for trail sections. Using a table also makes using headings impossible it seems, based on my experimentation.

We could change this of course (maybe we could make an overall table of the trail, including all stages as well, to make it easy to navigate?).

From/to

The other thing is the "from" and "to". This template takes the name from wikidata, and ignores the from and to wikidata values. There's a reason for this. Sometimes the section of trail actually has a name, i.e. a smaller named trail is part of a larger trail. In the vast majority of cases, neither the "from" nor the "to" value will have page links. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

So, the issue with this inserting headings is, that we automatically put 'edit'-buttons behind most headings. I fear that having templates insert headings will clash with that in some way. Furthermore, I am of the belief that templates/modules should add to an article in the way that images do: They add to the usefulness of articles, but do not add essential elements of article structures (such as headings).

Is there not a way to check whether the linked Wikidata item contains a 'to' and 'from' value, and only display the "A → B" when those values are defined for the item, replacing them with the section name if they aren't? I believe I've seen checks like that used in other modules.

I'll see if I can draft a little template draft using the module, and I'll ping you on its talk page with what it'd need from the module.
― Wauteurz (talk) 22:01, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Since this discussion died again, any final objections to making this final (without putting it in headers)? I think we can figure out the fine-grained issues later, such as Wikidata. //shb (t | c | m) 03:07, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey! I didn't get any notifications from this one. I won't have a lot of time in the upcoming months to work on this I'm afraid.

The thing is, without the headings or wikidata link, there's not much sense in doing it.

I also get Wauteurz' point that headings are not optimal here, so I'm a bit stuck on what a good approach would be. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 08:01, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

So, I did start working on adapting the mock-up from earlier into a template as I mentioned above. I ended up having some hassle with {{convert}} and left it at that at that stage. At this point it also doesn't interface with the module since that would require the raw values to be individually printable by the module. Still, it is a purely HTML-based version of the table, which maybe could be adapted into the module instead? A dummy template (without any core functionality) can then be used so that editors don't have to mess about with invoking the module.
― Wauteurz (talk) 10:39, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I’m pleased to report that Lithuania now has all pages at high-grade usable or better. I wonder if this can be pushed to their tourist agencies, in a way that promotes readership and local contributions, without a tidal wave of touting? There isn’t an obvious event or anniversary to hook it on.

To the best of my knowledge this is only the second substantial country to reach this level. Ireland (north and south) did so in the Covid years and is therefore now on a refresher cycle. Several others (beyond small islands and micronations) from a brief look seem well-developed but with gaps and out-of-date info. Is anywhere else getting close, just needs a final push? Grahamsands (talk) 20:06, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Wow, congratulations! WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Well done Graham and to everyone else who helped work on all of the Lithuania articles. Gizza ^(roam) 02:01, 21 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Wow indeed, nice. I'd love to read an article how that happened, maybe it could be published on WMF blog and/or The Signpost in English Wikipedia? Piotrus (talk) 12:12, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

If someone is willing to write a Signpost article on it, that would really be awesome. Would give this site a bit more publicity, too. //shb (t | c | m) 12:41, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

The Signpost probably won't take it. However, https://diff.wikimedia.org/ would be happy to have it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:21, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sinpost would take it if you could figure out a Wikipedia angle... or maybe even without it. They publish stuff related to WMF/community that's only so-so Wikiepdia related. Piotrus (talk) 03:28, 1 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

A small note to all, we'd love to see a blog post about this accomplishment on Diff. We have some documentation on how to submit a draft and can be contacted if help is needed. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

If the question is "How did Lithuania get all pages to high grade", the answer's a one-liner: I edited extensively on Vilnius and Kaunas then thought "What the hell."

LT is a small country, not just in territory but in POIs, cities, and associated editorial task, so already we have several sub-national but larger entities at that standard, such as Scotland or Silesian Voivodeship, and the entire continent of Antarctica. It might be worth cataloging these as a metric of progress. For the time being they're very much in the minority and our task is to make them the norm. Grahamsands (talk) 14:13, 9 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It’s been a week (maybe 2) and I still don’t have the ability to translate English articles to Esperanto. When do I get it. HtialilwW (talk) 02:43, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Did someone tell you that you'd get that ability in a couple of weeks? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:49, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

No. I just assumed, but when do I actually get it? HtialilwW (talk) 02:51, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you want to translate articles, you have to do it yourself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Although it would be nice if we did, we don't have an official translation tool the same way Wikipedia does. Special:Translate won't work for anyone on this site. //shb (t | c | m) 03:53, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

But when I click ‘languages’ in the top right it has some languages. How do you connect your article? HtialilwW (talk) 04:28, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's done on Wikidata. //shb (t | c | m) 04:30, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

How? HtialilwW (talk) 04:31, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

1. Start an article on Project X (e.g. footwear was recently started here).
2. Go to the relevant Wikidata item if it exists (in this case, d:Q161928)
3. Edit the relevant site links typically along the right hand side of the page (in this case, Wikivoyage)
4. Choose the appropriate language code (in this case, en and in the case of anything written in Esperanto, eo)
5. Once you add the name of the newly-written article, it will be saved at Wikidata and show up across all relevant Wikimedia Foundation projects.

—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:51, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you. HtialilwW (talk) 05:30, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80, has your team looked into enabling content translation for Wikioyages? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Kind of looked a bit, but never prioritized. It's theoretically possible, but requires work. It's better to ask about it at mw:Talk:Content translation. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Everyone, what do we think about this idea? Do we want the translation tools enabled between the Wikivoyages? (NB that enabling machine translation, such as Google Translate, is a separate question. My question is about the software to translate a {{sleep}} template into the matching template for a different language.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

To be clear, the point is to have machine translations of blank templates? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:01, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20250808-why-the-best-time-to-visit-no-longer-applies "I spent April and May this year travelling across Nepal – prime trekking season and often billed as the "best time to visit". Almost every online guide promised clear skies and comfortable temperatures. Instead, I found hazy polluted air and low visibility, especially at lower elevations. Early monsoons swept across the country, briefly clearing the smoke but replacing it with downpours I hadn't prepared for. The gap between expectation and reality was jarring. This isn't just a Nepal problem; travel is facing climate-driven disruptions everywhere.[...]" Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:55, 25 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

This will continue to be a problem. I'm not sure if this is a travel topic itself or just something so endemic to what "travel" is that it's something that is cross-guide. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:41, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's a problem way beyond travel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:53, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Clearly, but I'm just trying to frame it from the perspective of writing a travel guide. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:04, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

It could be a travel topic, but it's such a vast issue with so many ramifications. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's exactly what I was saying above, for sure. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:17, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

In terms of a travel topic, I wonder how many (how few?) travelers plan their travel around this idea of 'best time to visit'. AFAICT the timing of most travel usually depends on factors like:

• when the national/religious holiday is
• when the travel-worthy event (e.g., business meeting, wedding) is
• when the kids are in/out of school (families travel during school breaks, and solo/couple adults the opposite)
• when the price is lower

and not so much on trying to hit an ideal weather pattern. But I could see an argument in reverse: people do seem to avoid unwanted weather, both in terms of avoiding snowy areas unless your goal is snow skiing and in terms of leaving weather they dislike. If you live in central Canada, the best time to visit Cancún is February, not because that's a great month in Cancún, but because it's a lousy month in central Canada. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:22, 27 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

You also want to avoid torrential rain. We've increasingly gotten that in New York, and it's unpredictable. Not to mention haze from wildfires in Canada. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:27, 27 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Very insightful article and one that will definitely hold true for many years to come. Normally where I am it's supposed to be fairly dry during July and August but the last few weeks have been absolutely pouring. //shb (t | c | m) 06:44, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think this would make an excellent travel topic. That said, what would it be titled? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 18:14, 27 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

"Effects of climate change on travel". Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:35, 27 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I was thinking along the lines of "Best time to travel" overall, but yes, this would also make a great travel topic. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 18:38, 27 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I suggest shorter names like "climate change and travel" or "time to travel". Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 03:13, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Or just Climate change or - as I once proposed - Travel in the Anthropocene...

Interesting that this topic came back up. In Germany, some believe there is a trend away from Mediterranean Sea destinations for summer holidays and towards coolcations (a marketing term of course), i.e. holidays in cooler regions (mostly: of Europe). PragmaFisch (talk) 15:29, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

An article called Climate change could of course also include advice on climate friendly/low-emission/carbon neutral travel and/or destinations relevant to climate change, much like for example Pacific War. PragmaFisch (talk) 15:30, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello, we are the Wikimedia Foundation Product Safety and Integrity team. We would like to announce that we plan to enable temporary accounts for this wiki in the week of September 1.

Temporary accounts are successfully live on 30 wikis, including many large ones like German, Japanese, and French. The change they bring is especially relevant to logged-out editors, who this feature is designed to protect. But it is also relevant to community members like mentors, patrollers, and admins – anyone who reverts edits, blocks users, or otherwise interacts with logged-out editors as part of keeping the wikis safe and accurate.

Why we are building temporary accounts

Our wikis should be safer to edit by default for logged-out editors. Temporary accounts allow people to continue editing the wikis without creating an account, while avoiding publicly tying their edits to their IP address. We believe this is in the best interest of our logged-out editors, who make valuable contributions to the wikis and who may later create accounts and grow our community of editors, admins, and other roles. Even though the wikis do warn logged-out editors that their IP address will be associated with their edit, many people may not understand what an IP address is, or that it could be used to connect them to other information about them in ways they might not expect.

Additionally, our moderation software and tools rely too heavily on network origin (IP addresses) to identify users and patterns of activity, especially as IP addresses themselves are becoming less stable as identifiers. Temporary accounts allow for more precise interactions with logged-out editors, including more precise blocks, and can help limit how often we unintentionally end up blocking good-faith users who use the same IP addresses as bad-faith users.

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What does this mean for different groups of users?

For logged-out editors

• This increases privacy: currently, if you do not use a registered account to edit, then everybody can see the IP address for the edits you made, even after 90 days. That will no longer be possible on this wiki.
• If you use a temporary account to edit from different locations in the last 90 days (for example at home and at a coffee shop), the edit history and the IP addresses for all those locations will now be recorded together, for the same temporary account. Users who meet the relevant requirements will be able to view this data. If this creates any personal security concerns for you, please contact talktohumanrights at wikimedia.org for advice.

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• Compared to the current situation, it will be safer to assume that a temporary user's talk page belongs to only one person, and messages left there will be read by them. As you can see in the screenshot, temporary account users will receive notifications. It will also be possible to thank them for their edits, ping them in discussions, and invite them to get more involved in the community.

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• For patrollers who track persistent abusers, investigate violations of policies, etc.: Users who meet the requirements will be able to reveal temporary users' IP addresses and all contributions made by temporary accounts from a specific IP address or range (Special:IPContributions). They will also have access to useful information about the IP addresses thanks to the IP Info feature. Many other pieces of software have been built or adjusted to work with temporary accounts, including AbuseFilter, global blocks, Global User Contributions, and more. (For information for volunteer developers on how to update the code of your tools – see the last part of the message.)
• For admins blocking logged-out editors:
  • It will be possible to block many abusers by just blocking their temporary accounts. A blocked person won't be able to create new temporary accounts quickly if the admin selects the autoblock option.
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• Temporary accounts will not be retroactively applied to contributions made before the deployment. On Special:Contributions, you will be able to see existing IP user contributions, but not new contributions made by temporary accounts on that IP address. Instead, you should use Special:IPContributions for this.

Our requests for you, and next steps

• If you know of any tools, bots, gadgets etc. using data about IP addresses or being available for logged-out users, you may want to test if they work on testwiki or test2wiki. If you are a volunteer developer, read our documentation for developers, and in particular, the section on how your code might need to be updated.
• If you want to test the temporary account experience, for example just to check what it feels like, go to testwiki or test2wiki and edit without logging in.
• Tell us if you know of any difficulties that need to be addressed. We will try to help, and if we are not able, we will consider the available options.
• Look at our previous message about requirements for users without extended rights who may need access to IP addresses.

To learn more about the project, check out our FAQ – you will find many useful answers there. You may also look at the updates (we have just posted one) and subscribe to our new newsletter. If you'd like to talk to me (Szymon) off-wiki, you will find me on Discord and Telegram. Thank you!

NKohli (WMF), SGrabarczuk (WMF) 21:37, 26 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

...and it's been deployed. //shb (t | c | m) 13:56, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

And I posted my first touting warning on the talk page of such an account. Are they mainly going to protect touters and vandals? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:39, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

My experience with dealing with temp accounts on other smaller wikis like srwiki is they prevent vandals from IP hopping since this is supposedly tied to the device and not the IP – but it makes dealing with such abuse much harder, especially when it comes to things like range blocks or for those who don't meet the criteria for viewing temporary accounts (6 months and 500 edits; though supposedly I think I can bypass this restriction now since I was given global temporary account IP viewer?). //shb (t | c | m) 23:24, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's what I was worried about, too. But I see advantages for the wiki communities:

"The cookie will expire 90 days after its creation. As long as it exists, all edits made from this device will be attributed to this temporary account. It will be the same account even if the IP address changes, unless the user clears their cookies or uses a different device or web browser."

"It will be possible to block many abusers by just blocking their temporary accounts. A blocked person won't be able to create new temporary accounts quickly if the admin selects the autoblock option."

Further, "Users who meet the requirements will be able to reveal temporary users' IP addresses and all contributions made by temporary accounts from a specific IP address or range (Special:IPContributions)." That means gorgeous you, you will still have the sane access as now. Ground Zero (talk) 15:59, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I guess we'll have to get used to how to autoblock very soon... Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:04, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've taken my first attempt at blocking a Telstar long-term abuser IP identified through temporary account. Please take a look if everything is done properly. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 21:33, 8 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I made a bit of a mockup in my userspace, but would there be any interest in creating Wikivoyage:Food and Drink Expedition? The main goal would be to improve articles under food and drink and have a central page to track all that. A bit of an unofficial expedition already existed at Talk:Food and drink#"Cuisine" articles, but I think a page where we can easily track progress would be nice. Other thoughts?

In the meantime, I've mapped all countries that have their own cuisine article on the English Wikivoyage (pictured right; North Africa deliberately excluded).

//shb (t | c | m) 06:04, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think any such expedition should also focus on the "Eat" sections of multi-country region and country articles, because first of all, we want to make sure there are good summaries in articles of countries or regions with dedicated cuisine articles and even more so for countries or regions without dedicated cuisine articles, and secondly, we want to make sure cuisine articles are actually better and have a greater amount and/or depth of specific travel information in them and are actually more useful to travelers than equivalent Wikipedia articles. I retain some skepticism that more than a few of the cuisine articles on Wikivoyage are actually better or even as good as their Wikipedia equivalents, or that they have an appropriate travel focus that justifies their being here when a Wikipedia article is better. Travel focus means that places (cities, rural areas, regions) that specialize or excel in particular foods or drinks need to be highlighted, and the prospective traveler is given a clear idea of what the eating experience is like in different kinds of eateries and people's homes and what is expected from them in regard to local etiquette. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I would also support creating a checklist for eat sections of such country/multi-country regions (and I do agree with the notion that a cuisine article isn't always appropriate – North African cuisine is a prime example of it being both worse for travellers than the respective Wikipedia article and a travel topic that could entirely be covered in North Africa). //shb (t | c | m) 12:53, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

On behalf of Wikivoyage, I feel a bit embarrassed that the map reflects a cultural bias against African cuisines. Surely people there must cook and eat something. Mrkstvns (talk) 13:05, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

We did have North African cuisine until this week, but I merged that back in because North Africa#Eat had almost nothing beforehand. For Africa (and Oceania), it is probably a better use of community resources trying to improve the Eat sections of country articles before creating a separate topic article. //shb (t | c | m) 00:43, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I would support an expedition. Not only the cuisine articles and "Eat" sections of destinations but there are many specific food articles and topics related to food which need to be improved or created. And I agree that the lack of African cuisine articles is somewhat embarrassing. I'm surprised that Ethiopian cuisine hasn't been created yet, considering the large number of Ethiopian restaurants in the DMV (Washington DC, Maryland and Virginia) area as well as South African, considering the large native and non-native English-speaking population and otherwise fairly good coverage of the country on WV. The lack of articles on Peruvian and Caribbean cuisines are other big gaps. Gizza ^(roam) 01:27, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ethiopian cuisine is great! But Wikivoyage cuisine articles are far from the be-all and end-all of food coverage on an online travel guide. I haven't closely reviewed all of them this year, but my impression is that they tend to lack much real travel content and be pale imitations of Wikipedia articles without references and that only the best of them deviate from this. I'd be much more embarrassed by there being a bunch of terrible Wikivoyage cuisine articles about African cuisines than none at all. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:24, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed with the stubby cuisine articles – using the NA example once again, North Africa now feels a lot more "complete", if I may say, than compared to a few days ago where both eat and drink were near-empty. Would be nice if we could see similar content for Sahel, East Africa (which feels absurdly short for how much good food comes from that region) and Central Africa. It might not be the same as separate cuisine articles, but baby steps, after all. //shb (t | c | m) 03:27, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: I've now made a list for multi-country region articles with either no eat/drink section or where some content exists but it's very lacklustre. Surprisingly very manageable. //shb (t | c | m) 11:28, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Done at Wikivoyage:Food and Drink Expedition – any additions more than appreciated. //shb (t | c | m) 01:27, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps we could mention cuisine articles that don't exist yet, but should? Where the gaps are? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:02, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

A section for that would def be nice. //shb (t | c | m) 11:24, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Foreword: I get it, every traveller has different priorities. That aside, surely most cities have the major attractions, and then 'side-quests', for common travellers.

For example, take Esztergom. If you are there for a week, you can probably inspect it all. But for 1-2 days, most people will only consider e.g. the Basilica, 1-2 museums, castle and aquapark. Could we add some field 'top-pick' for listings, and have e.g. limit 10 per article and type (see/do)? Perhaps such listings could have just more vivid markers or whatever.

I'm asking for the same reason as usual. Another vacation/roadtrip came by, and I tried reeeeeeally hard to use WV to plan it, but it just can't be done. I had to use google maps to search sights, read reviews, put together road-plan somewhere else (my usual go-to page), and then consult WV to maybe some final hints. I am thinking about putting together some JS tool for WV, that could gather listings for such trips - but unless one can at least roughly evaluate where the main sights of given area are, it's useless to even start.

OTOH, if I could e.g. open page of Hungary, and get on a map combined top-10 sights of all articles, that could at least give me a rough idea, what are the most interesting regions...

Am I alone having this problem? -- andree 18:42, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

In cases in which there's a strong consensus about what the top sights are, we can organize "See" something like Siena#See. Otherwise a summary at the beginning of the see section would do it. No need for any fancy changes in the colors or format of the listings templates. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Good, let's say we're visiting Tuscany for a week or two. How would you put together the travel plan using WV? Summary text is nice, but it helps only if you get dropped off in a particular city and need some introduction (like via some organized tour) - it doesn't help at all for major/self-organized planning. E.g. Montepulciano looks quite trivial regarding sights, and would hardly be worth visiting during a roadtrip (no major sights). Of course if you are in the area for a few days, it's a different story. But with the current structure of WV, how do you figure this out? By reading all articles? I can open tripadvisor/google/wanderlog/... and be 100x more effective. -- andree 18:55, 2 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

There are so many great ways to spend a week or two in Tuscany that there's no reasonable way to give our readers a one-size-fits all "One week in Tuscany" guide, and all we can reasonably do is mention some highlights in the Tuscany#See and Tuscany#Do sections and leave them to their own devices in choosing what to prioritize on a first visit (and then a second, third, fourth if they can take one...). Of course, they can instead choose to take a precooked guided tour, but we aren't here to guide them on that. All that said, if you think any of the sections of the Tuscany article are missing important information that should be summarized, there, go ahead and add it! And if you think any of it might be controversial, make a proposal at Talk:Tuscany. Also, I don't have time to look at the Tripadvisor link right now, but what makes it superior to Wikivoyage, and how might we best address that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:40, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hence the very first sentence... :) Also, Tuscany was an example. I could be an American soldier with 5 days to spend around Rammstein, salesman on a trip from NYC to Jacksonville, someone who wants to spend a month in central America, whatever... You say you don't want to do 'one-size-fits-all' things (and I agree), but then you suggest to do it in overviews of regions. These can always only cover a particular area, and likely won't inform about top-notch stuff right behind the border.

In the past 10-15 years I did various few weeks/3000km roadtrips, and WV didn't help me create even a rough plan most of the time. The city guides themselves are usually nice (even if missing bits here and there, but that's fine with me, I'm always trying to fill the gaps after trips), but I'd expect a digital travel guide would also help with the bigger picture...

Or is the idea still to only compete with traditional printed travel guides? -- andree 06:05, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

"Go next" (or sometimes, "Nearby") is for places outside the area covered by a guide, and there will always be something not covered by any guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think that the lead and ==Understand== sections are also useful for this purpose. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:16, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I wouldn't be opposed to creating some kind of icon to signify what are the "must-sees" for a first time visitor and what are some additional places you can go and visit if you have extra time – it's a subtle change but with lots of potential. While I know summary text can work well, from my experience only having that doesn't quite compare to other travel guides that I use (mostly expedia or Google). //shb (t | c | m) 06:00, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

The summary text is nice, once you are in the respective city. My problem is that it's impossible to read 200 such articles, even if they all had to-notch overviews... I'd much rather use google maps on an area, search for 'attractions' and pick the ones with a 100+ reviews, for example. But IMO WV could do that easily, if we had at such 'must-see' tags. -- andree 06:10, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I made a bit of a mockup at {{mustsee}} and implemented it at Canberra/South Canberra, Kiama and Budderoo National Park – thoughts on this? //shb (t | c | m) 06:12, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

In principle yes, but for my usecase it would only be useful if the listing template would have such parameter (e.g. { {see|mustsee|name=xyz}}). That would allow creating a dynamic map that could show the listings from an arbitrary area with such stuff.

OTOH, adding this is quite a bit of effort, and perhaps source of community friction...

We could do a similar thing, if we misuse wikipedia search, and e.g. order the listings according to number of wikipedia search results (poor man's google pigeon rank alternative; because I'd get banned by google quickly, if I wanted to use their numbers - also it's probably in violation with their T&C :) ). E.g. for Esztergom, it "Esztergom Basilica" gives 51 results, "Christian Museum" -> 13, "Bottyan Bridge" -> 2, "Jesuits parish-church" -> 1...... I guess this could work, and we wouldn't need any external stuff, not even wikidata (but we need markers :) ). -- andree 06:35, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Maybe this works for Esztergom, but what would the results be for cities like New York, Berlin, Paris, Rome or Washington, D.C., where there would be considerable disagreement about the "best" things to see and do, depending on the preferences and interests of the traveler? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, from what I can concur, we're all on the same page about such a pin working for small cities, parks, smaller rural areas – or really, anything that is not a huge city, where the best things to see/do is more subjective. shb (t | c | m) 06:49, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, generally, it's a lot easier when there are a few obviously great sights in a relatively small city that does not have a tremendous number of activities to offer to visitors who might be uninterested in them. But why doesn't the Siena#See model work for them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:56, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, that's also one way to do it, but many of our See sections are already categorised by other means. Maybe this is the way to do it for larger cities. //shb (t | c | m) 07:00, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

For larger cities? I doubt it. Refer to my comments about cities like Berlin, Rome, New York, etc. elsewhere in the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:06, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sure does, once you already decide to go to Siena, I'd say it's a perfect guide (on the first look), I'd perhaps just use google to search for food and perhaps missing new venues. But it's not the point of this topic....... -- andree 07:05, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree that at least in the U.S., Google Maps is usually most useful in finding places to eat. I miss the days when I could get more reliable information by checking food forum sites like Chowhound. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but that wasn't about Esztergom itself. But if you go on a trip Esztergom -> Nagykanizsa, knowing not much about the country, IMO it would be nice if you would gather the respective articles we have, take the listings and show top-10% of them, according to this (or other) ranking. Then you'll know it makes sense to have a stop in Székesfehérvár, but probably not necessarily to Várpalota... -- andree 06:56, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

That sounds like something to address in a region guide or to some extent in "Go next" sections. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

(ec) I thought of having a special category that would list them on a dynamic map, but I know that's going to receive a lot of community opposition – hence why I proposed a small pinpoint which is both easy to implement for most cities and far more uncontroversial while getting most of the similar benefits. //shb (t | c | m) 06:45, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Attractions should be bolded as appropriate in summaries. Look at Chicago#See for an example. I oppose using a special template for supposed "must-sees". That ignores the step of agreeing on what they are, and I don't know if we really want to spend time about arguing about that on the talk pages of every article, but neither is it reasonable for people to just unilaterally decide they will dictate the answers. We've had many discussions about this topic before, and while there's a clear consensus in certain places, there is none in many others. To take one example, if you consider New York City, many people who haven't visited think Times Square is a must-see, and New Yorkers would grudgingly admit that it makes sense to see it once, but does that make it a top-5 attraction? The Metropolitan Museum is a "must-go-to" if visiting art museums (though it also has great musical instruments and fashion wings) is a priority and not if it isn't. The Brooklyn Bridge might be one most people would agree with, but even in that case, some people would object to the number of pedestrians on the bridge or simply lack the fitness to walk 1.1 miles. Most New Yorkers and many visitors would say taking the Staten Island Ferry is a must-do, but a tour guide who has a YouTube channel claimed it was a bad deal even though it's free, and you could do better by paying a lot of money to drink champagne while taking a tour in a smaller boat and seeing more of the Statue of Liberty (I think she's dead wrong, but those expensive tours do have customers), but more seriously, some people prefer not to spend the time to do a round trip across New York Bay and would rather walk a lot, go to clubs and bars or what have you. Etc., etc. Paris is a similar case: The Eiffel Tower is iconic, but it doesn't have to be visited to be seen; the Louvre is incredible but could pall on someone who doesn't really care about art; but there's so much to see and do in Paris that it's a great place for most people to visit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:25, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I mean, these are all issues that Google, Tripadvisor, Expedia, Lonely Planet and all the other major travel guides, all have to deal with as well, but they do so just fine. I recognize the main difference here is those sites don't operate as wikis, but they do somehow manage to do with it fine, and there's no reason why we can't either (might require some discussion for major cities, but that's it, really). Having a pinpoint or some special listing doesn't necessarily mean that readers lack critical thinking – they could, of course, just decide for themselves if that's not their thing. It should be treated more as a new feature that readers can use at their own will, but it doesn't replace everything else.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm somewhat worried Wikivoyage will lose relevance if we don't have some kind of distinguishing feature and stick to only using article summaries because, nobody my age is willing to read through long swathes of text and fluff (it might also explain why I couldn't really care less about lively travel writing as much as most people do on this site), and something visual is what is needed if we want to actively maintain relevance. //shb (t | c | m) 06:42, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you want to try to have arguments about the top 5 or 10 attractions in every city, region, state/province, etc., even district, you'd better get started, because it will take a long time. Those other sites are commercial and want to feature whatever helps them sell most. The history of this wiki is that it does not focus on the most typical travelers who would be satisfied with precooked tours that tell them where to go. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

They might be commercial, but if even if someone like me, who defends this site as being a viable travel site in many ways, ends up often resorting to Google/Lonely Planet because they highlight key points of interests way better than we do, that is something they do better than us and something we should strive towards fixing. I don't deny that the implementation of this for large cities will be an issue, but I want this site to actually be read by people, and there is no reason we shouldn't for smaller cities and parks. //shb (t | c | m) 06:55, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

btw most of my comments here are anecdotal, both from my own experience and many others IRL (many of whom are roughly my age) who travel frequently. Take that as you will. //shb (t | c | m) 06:56, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I look at Tripadvisor and Wikivoyage when looking for things to see and do in a city. My biggest complaint about Tripadvisor is that they show things to see and do far outside a given city that are not reasonable to actually see or do unless you have a car, and you have to spend time looking at their results to see that there is actually nothing they think you can see or do in a city itself. The biggest problem I have with Wikivoyage is that many places lack any coverage or the coverage is insufficient, but that depends on the place in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:00, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I do think the rankings on Tripadvisor can be helpful, although I don't always agree with them, but I see those as complementary to Wikivoyage and don't have a problem with Wikivoyage being different. I will concede that if it helps more readers if we can try to do more top-10ish lists, we could do them, but for a city like New York, it would amount to top art museums, top viewpoints, top scenic walks (which would often be neighborhoods, rather than exact itineraries), top parks (we could do more with that one), etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah I don't love Tripadvisor for that reason – I do have a car and can drive, but I do travel to regional areas for site visits quite a fair bit on public transit to save up on money and sometimes check out the city. Normally I don't mind walking 12–15 km solo (and sometimes even next to 110 km/h highways with no protection), but Tripadvisor takes that to a whole different level. //shb (t | c | m) 07:05, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

+1 ... I just want to make the effort we (the whole community) put into this guide to show, and get used by people. As shb wrote above, mostly noone likes to read walls of text, before they even decide they want to go there. -- andree 07:02, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

You think bolding is of no help? Could you do a mockup of what you want to see? If you want something that's even clearer than bolding, wouldn't it be a list? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:05, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with you on all points, but my problem is elsewhere. I went Budapest->Croatia, and wanted to spend a few days learning about history, natural sights if there are some etc., on the path. I could do 50km detour if needed, within schengen, so even to a different country.

Globetrotter19 (talk · contribs), City-busz (talk · contribs) and other guys really are doing great job describing everything in Hungary. But you know, I don't want to see every (+- the same) Baroque church in every 5000-people town...... :) I'd like to visit e.g. some summer palace of the Habsburgs, unique architecture I can't find elsewhere, some natural sights, perhaps some playgrounds for kids. That kind of itinerary.... Ultimately I succeeded, but not thanks to WV, which is IMO a shame, because most of the pieces (sans some kind of "priorities" and a map) are there... -- andree 06:48, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think any itinerary based on "must-sees" is going to recommend playgrounds, though some are pretty interesting (for example, I thought one in Vondelpark in Amsterdam was, and I thought I added a description of it in the Vondelpark listing in Amsterdam/Zuid, but I don't see it, so maybe I didn't). Unique architecture and amazing natural sights should be highlighted in any good guidebook, though, and that obviously should include Wikivoyage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm thinking more about this: What you're really asking for is the kinds of maps Michelin used to have in their paper Green Guides and allow access to online for free, which showed which cities were 3 stars (worth a trip), 2 stars (worth a detour) and 1 star (interesting), or non-starred, and likewise with attractions within and sometimes outside of cities. That was very useful, partly because although Michelin has certain biases in what they find interesting, I find their judgments pretty reliable in that what they think is worthwhile usually is. So yes, I very much see the use in that kind of map. It would be a hell of a lot of work for us to create our own, though, and would require a lot of debate (relying on some calculation based on searches for Wikipedia articles or anything else is not something we are going to want to substitute for our own judgments, or what is the point in a crowd-based guide?). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:14, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm willing to take part in such discussions if that's what people want to do. Start a thread in Talk:New York and so on if you want to. We've tried before, but we can try again... Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:19, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

That kind of rank sounds quite useful, it would help to somehow categorize/sort our articles... Wikipedia-search-based-ranking is just a possibility that's better than keeping doing nothing (I'd say) :) -- andree 07:28, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

That would be interesting to see. //shb (t | c | m) 08:37, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

One thing we would have to decide is whether to have some attempt at an absolute global measure of star rankings like the one Michelin had (and presumably still has in its paper green guides) or to do rankings per area, and also whether we will make decisions about which cities (etc.) deserve 3 stars, 2 stars, 1 star or no stars, or what other distinctions we would want to use. Something to consider is that as I recall from the 1990s, when I still used paper guides, Michelin had a number of 3-star and 2-star attractions in Rome, but there were dozens of 1-starred churches, because for example even fairly minor churches in Rome may have good art by known artists and be pretty buildings, such that they would easily be top attractions in much smaller Italian cities. I would seriously doubt the neo-Gothic St. Mary's Church in Hudson, New York would get any stars from Michelin, because while it's a very pretty building to run into while visiting that picturesque little city and has good stained glass windows, it just doesn't compare to a Roman church like Sant'Andrea della Valle, a parish church I enjoyed visiting when I was staying in a hotel on via Arenula nearby. However, I think it's an important sight in Hudson, even though it surprisingly gets no mention in any guide I've seen other than Wikivoyage - because I listed it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Well that's the whole point. If I'm in NYC, I will probably not travel 2x2h to see that one church - but maybe if I travelled NYC-Albany and could have a short stop there, it would make sense. OTOH, the question is now, if the proposed ranking would help here. I suppose the whole road would be littered with 1-star cities, so you'd resort back to clicking on each of them and reading through... -- andree 09:39, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think if we are to replicate the global measure of star rankings, it should ideally be relative to the area. A church in a metro area of 5 million might not be that interesting to most travellers (and could get zero stars), but a church in a town of 500 might be the most prominent thing to see in that town (and might get two stars). Now I'm not familiar with the one Michelin had so do take my star ratings as an example, but my main point is to avoid a one-size-fits-all criteria. //shb (t | c | m) 09:52, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

If we followed in Michelin's footsteps, there would be only a few one-star cities at most. Most would be unstarred. I wish I could find information about them online to link for everyone, other than a brief paragraph in w:Michelin Guide#Green Guides, but in some online searching for "list of Michelin starred attractions" and so forth, nothing else useful was found. It's worth looking at that paragraph, though:

The Michelin Green Guides review and rate attractions other than restaurants. There is a Green Guide for France as a whole, and a more detailed one for each of ten regions within France. Other Green Guides cover many countries, regions, and cities outside France. Many Green Guides are published in several languages. They include background information and an alphabetical section describing points of interest. Like the Red Guides, they use a three-star system for recommending sites, ranging from "worth a trip" to "worth a detour", and "interesting".

I believe I got rid of my old Green Guides from the 90s a long time ago, but Michelin's high standards are shown by the fact that most villages in Tuscany got no stars even though someplace in them (probably the Duomo or some church if nothing else) got a star on its own and the great majority of them are really beautiful. I believe I remember that being the case for Asciano. Of course Florence and Siena got 3 stars, but I believe Arezzo got no more than 2 and Cortona got one because although there are a couple of great attractions there (especially its little Duomo, which got at least 2 stars as an attraction), that's all there is other than a great view, and there are great views from a lot of hill villages (and I think that's a fair rating on that basis). I'm pretty sure San Gimignano got 3 stars, because it has incredible attractions for such a small town in addition to its great location.

It would be great if anyone had Green Guides for areas of the U.S., but by that standard, if I think about places I've visited in the Hudson Valley north of Poughkeepsie, Kingston would get a star or maybe two, ditto for Hudson (probably 1 star, though Olana would get at least 2 stars as an attraction) and Troy, Saratoga would probably get 2, Cohoes would probably get 1, Albany would get 1 because it's the capital of the state and has one interesting area and probably some decent museums I didn't go to, and I think that's it. No chance for a star for Rhinebeck, though there are some churches and accompanying graveyards with interesting histories that I was never motivated enough to write up, and no stars for all the more or less pleasant and picturesque villages. New Paltz would get one star, but it's further south. Some of the suburbs along the Hudson in Westchester would probably get a single star, but not unless there is more there than just a view, so Yonkers for the Hudson River Museum and the garden there whose name I forget, and maybe Sleepy Hollow for the legend (Michelin folks love stuff like that). Not sure what else. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:19, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I wonder how much of this is about highlighting the best attractions within a large destination vs saying which cities to stop in when you're already driving between X and Y. I think that an itinerary might be a better model: Go here to see this, then go there to see that, stop off here if you're interested in this... WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:50, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I used a Michelin Green Guide during a roadtrips in France in 2002 to help make spontaneous decisions about side trips off the autoroute. My brother drove and I sat next to him, looking at the Michelin maps and reading to him from guides to places not too far from exits. As a result, we visited Semur, Saumur and Le Mans in addition to the other places we had planned to visit before the trip. The Michelin stars for cities and attractions helped, but so did their descriptions.

I definitely think it would be possible to use Wikivoyage the same way (I haven't tried so far - no more family roadtrips since my father got too sick and my parents subsequently died), but the inconsistency of this site in its coverage, due to which places members of this crowd chose to write about, creates a lack of standardization that is unavoidable. Considering the built-in drawbacks of wikis, it's amazing how good they are! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:03, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

For some cities, such as Agra, they key sites are mentioned in the article's introduction. Pashley (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

When you have metro area article with cities under it or a huge city with districts, the top-level article can mention the most important sites leaving details & lesser sites to other articles. e.g. Shanghai#See & Metro_Cebu#See This also works for things other than tourist sights, e.g. see Shanghai#Clothing. Pashley (talk) 20:34, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I find that usually region articles are much less complete than the articles for cities within them. In part this is a result of the nature of volunteer supplied content. It is much easier to add content to the city article for somewhere that has just been visited. To write about the region, ideally you would have some knowledge of most of the region which requires a much longer visit exploring the whole area, rather than a weekend in a single city - it is much harder to collate multiple editors contributions on the cities to make the region guide.

The commercial guides have an advantage here - a traditional guidebook company will pay for the author to spend a couple of weeks touring the region. The review sites have loads of data to crunch - TripAdvisor can filter based on the number of 4 star reviews it has, Google may know how many Android phones visited a location (user settings permitting etc).AlasdairW (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I see that in this project, at the bottom of an article, there's a suggested pages section (more details here). How does this can be achieved? Probably via an extension? I also want this in viwikivoyage. Nvdtn19 (talk) 07:45, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I believe before this was implemented you could manually add all related pages using {{Related}}, which you can still do, but I'm not sure what we did in the lead up to automatically adding related pages (might have been a phab task, but I cannot exactly remember). //shb (t | c | m) 11:53, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I believe you're talking about mw:Extension:RelatedArticles. See m:Requesting wiki configuration changes for the process to follow. It's not difficult but some of it may be new to you. The devs will want a link to a community discussion (an ordinary discussion is usually enough). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:24, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Some of you might remember the discussion we had about the site here – it seems they've drafted up the report at m:Proposal for Closing Wikinews which I think is worth a read. For one, I think it's a shame that the final outcome was to lock all Wikinews projects without really consulting the Wikinews community at all (with SPTF even claiming that's an apparent conflict of interest) and dismissing genuine suggestions that were brought up which gives the impression that they were more interested in an authoritarian approach because of how much backlash that proposal initially garnered (and I also get the impressions they had the result predetermined).

I don't think we on Wikivoyage have much to be concerned about, mainly for two reasons – a) information on Wikivoyage is still relevant for the most part, even in 20 or 25 years (unlike Wikinews where content becomes irrelevant after 2–3 weeks); b) Wikivoyage is still a viable travel site for large parts of the world, even though it has many gaps. That said, I don't think now's a bad time to start discussion on how we can genuinely compete with major travel sites like Google, LonelyPlanet or Expedia, even if it doesn't result in change, both so we stay relevant in the grand scheme of things, and so our content is read by travellers. Either way, RIP Wikinews and it's sad that a flawed consultation process was how it had to go. //shb (t | c | m) 11:51, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

A couple thoughts. First, and admittedly I don't know all the context here, that seems to be only a proposal. Presumably that proposal could be rejected?

One resource that would be valuable would be data on number of edits, page views, etc. by project, and while graphs from that tool are shown in the proposal, I can't find the actual web page mentioned anywhere there. In my opinion we would be wise to look at which articles are receiving the highest readership by humans and learn lessons from those articles. From what I've seen in page information tabs, travel topics perform far better than we might think, and they require less maintenance than destination articles. Perhaps we should increase our offering of travel topics and itineraries, which certainly would increase the distinction between our site and alternatives like LonelyPlanet. I also believe we should come to a consensus regarding station articles and, if we want to make that a new type of article permanently, expand our offering in that area.

Strange as it sounds, we may suffer from having too many destination (and particuarly city) articles. Sparsely populated regions such as North Dakota have articles for even the smallest towns, and there aren't enough editors in these places to keep listings up to date. I'm not sure what is the best way to resolve that problem, but I think there was a wave of creation followed by deletion of empty skeleton articles in the past.

If Wikinews is indeed taken offline, the timing seems inappropriate. A time when news organizations (PBS, NPR) are being defunded is not the best time to close down the project, surely. I do think the proposal makes a convincing argument that the current state of Wikinews is insufficient, but I think that would call for changes rather than closure entirely. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:45, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Based on the way SPTF acted on the consultation page, we can be very sure they had the result predetermined (especially because they did not consult Wikinews beforehand either) and due to the lack of any positives about Wikinews mentioned in the report. It's one of the most egregious box-ticking consultations I've ever seen from a WMF charter. //shb (t | c | m) 12:59, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I realize this is totally a side point, but any figuring of how many human edits articles get has to make exceptions for repeated attempts by Brendan to edit articles like the one for Equatorial Guinea or vandalism of the Nigeria article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:30, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

To my knowledge, I don't think any human edits were excluded in the calculations for WN – I might be wrong, though. //shb (t | c | m) 14:35, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Maybe we could exclude edits that are tagged with reverted/rollback. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:35, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

"Presumably that proposal could be rejected?" Yes. You can make your voice heard at m:Requests for comment/Sister Projects next steps and see other comments (now closed) at m:Talk:Public consultation about Wikinews. This will be reviewed later in the year for any decisions. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:46, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

SPTF has done a great job of wilful ignorance; you can in theory, but they've demonstrated ample times that they aren't interested in hearing opposition. //shb (t | c | m) 22:18, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Unironically, that's also why m:Requests for comment/Closure of Sister Project Task Force even seems to have come about (and I do hope the WMF takes notes that SPTF isn't super popular with the community – most of the opposes are just people saying the community can't close a WMF-appointed charter). //shb (t | c | m) 22:31, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

In terms of my speculation/conjecture/take, I'd say that the various WMF projects are in tiers something like:

• Safe/successful:
  • Wikipedia
  • Wiktionary
  • Wikidata
  • Commons
  • Wikispecies
  • MediaWiki
• Safe/qualified successes:
  • Wikisource
  • Wikiquote
  • Wikivoyage
• Less safe/qualified failures:
  • Wikibooks
  • Wikiversity
• Other:
  • Wikinews (possible closure, major restructuring)
  • Wikifunctions (too new to assess, very small and narrow scope)

I don't think that anyone has the English Wikivoyage in the cross hairs as such, otherwise, it would have been brought up at the time. I've been pretty vocal in the consultation process about Wikinews generally and while I think the proposal to possibly shut down is the wrong one, I have also been disappointed by some of the vituperation aimed at those who were just doing their jobs. The fact is, Wikinews has struggled and failed. I don't think it's an inherent failure and I personally continue to contribute at the English Wikinews: I believe in it. But some users took the criticism and proposal as a kind of attack and attacked back in a way that I think was not warranted. If for no other reason than no one wants to put up with the drama, I find it unlikely that there will be any serious proposals to close any other projects and even if there were, Wikiversity and probably Wikibooks would come before Wikivoyage.

As an aside, if an admin could please address Template_talk:WikivoyageSister#Wikifunctions, that would be nice. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:54, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the post, but since I don't recognize all the abbreviations you used for wikis, I'm dead sure other readers didn't. So if you choose to explain what they all stand for, you'd be doing a good service. I'll get the process started by saying that wp=Wikipedia, wikt=Wiktionary, d is presumably Wikidata, c would be Commons, species is clear, voy=Wikivoyage, and wn=Wikinews. I don't recognize the others. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:10, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for being so clipped. Modifying. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:14, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, appreciated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Koavf: What would you say distinguishes the three qualified successes from the successful projects, and in turn what distinguishes us from Wikibooks and Wikiversity (the qualified failures)? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 00:25, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I would say that the "successful" projects are all very active and generally pretty successful at what a person wants to get out of them. E.g. if you want to know what a word means (particularly in English) and you look it up on Wiktionary, you will probably find the answer. With those qualified successes, you may get what you want and there's a decent amount of content, but there are also some big gaps. With the semi-failure ones, there is a lot of work that needs to be done to make it useful. That's just generally how I think about it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:38, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Makes sense. Where would you say the holes lie on Wikivoyage? I think we've made a lot of progress regarding outline articles in recent years, but there remain many out of date articles for smaller towns and suburbs. The thing I wonder is, though, whether anyone is really looking to travel to those towns in the first place. In my view that's an issue the community will need to address in the long run.

That said, Wikivoyage's ratio of useful articles to outlines has seen incredible improvement since 2012 and even since Covid. I do have high hopes that we can join the level of Commons, WikiSpecies, etc. within a few years if our progress continues. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 11:33, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

The holes are some missing locations/topics, but mostly outdated info, bloat, and a lack of multimedia. I think this project is generally successful to the extent that you could probably use it to plan a trip to many locations. I've never been to Buffalo (New York) or Boston and I think that if I just read our guides and did the things that made sense for me, I'd probably have a fine time, but I also think I would miss out on some things that we don't have covered and we don't have the kind of interactive functionality (e.g. planning a route and connecting that to a map application) that someone would ideally want. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:08, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Interesting. I think we have a policy against multimedia at the moment.

As for missing locations and topics, could you give some examples? I'd imagine we have more holes in terms of travel topics than locations.

I don't have the technical knowledge but maybe we could find a way to export the lines on itinerary routemaps to a GPS or OSM application? If could do that we could fix the other point that you mention about itineraries. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:52, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, we do have a policy to de-prioritize media in favor of print-outs, which is emphatically not how literally 99% of users would use this site. It's preposterous and probably was not how users used this site in 2003. Just imagine what the perfect travel guide would be and there's no universe where that doesn't have interactive media and the functionality to actually dynamically plan routes and connect with mapping or navigation abilities. As for topics, I occasionally provide my suggestions of what we could talk about, the most recent time I kind of threw an idea up here that was vaguely a proposal was here, where I suggested that we have more material that is just more free-form and anecdotal that encourages the kind of wandering and deliberately getting lost that can be enjoyable in travel. I also mused about bringing back the personal travel blogs that used to exist here years and years ago for that purpose. If this were a site that included more engaging and fun material as actual reading material, that would also be part of the ideal travel guide in my mind.

To ramble more, if you imagine Wiktionary, which is a dictionary, but we've also added a thesaurus, media like audio pronunciations and images to supplement the entries, appendices for more trivial information, etc. It's an attempt to make something that is as robust as possible for everything that someone would want about a reference work that is about words and terms generally speaking. If this site is just a bunch of listings of "go to place, see thing" then there is value to that, but if you think of the best thing that a travel guide could be, then we can expand our horizons about what we want to do here in principle (if not necessarily in practice, since resources are finite). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:20, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree, we need to move on from the prioritization of being able to print our guides in an era when cellular service is everywhere. Most people don't even use a printer these days.

One of the challenges of our site right now is that we have so few people who write based on where they've just visited. You're right that if we could have engaging itineraries written by travelers, it would improve site quality. Such articles, being more subjective and with less time related info, would also require less maintenance to stay relevant.

An article I'd love to see would be Intracoastal Waterway, but by someone who's actually done a good stretch of it on their own vessel. I think that could be a terrific itinerary, even if it covered the route through just one state. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:57, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

So, I agree with everyone that we don't want to prioritize printed pages, but it's still a factor that there are places with little if any cellphone signal, and they are not even all extremely remote. Can someone tell us whether there is still no cellphone signal for something like 70 miles of the Pacific Coast Highway? My feeling is that while printed guides should not be the main priority on this site, we should still make sure there's enough printable content to be useful to people who are venturing out of cellphone connectivity. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed in principle and also agreed that we need to make the most accommodations for the most important issues: e.g. accessibility for those with visual impairments or the capacity for serving pages to those who have spotty connections, etc. Print is certainly a consideration and could be an important one for a minority of users, but it is far more common that someone is accessing this material live on the Web, many times using a portable device that has mapping and navigation capabilities. For us to have literally no integration with those basic functions is a lacuna to say the least. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:54, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's insane! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed – that said, from what I can infer, we have come quite some way especially given that we're a bit neglected by the WMF. Static maps are no longer favoured in most of our articles and the lack of contributors who can make static maps has somewhat done a service. We've moved towards better integration with OSM, especially when it comes to mapshapes. Plenty of progress, but still a lot more to go. //shb (t | c | m) 00:12, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek, SelfieCity: I used to be someone who would print out things when going remote or somewhere with no signal (which I do quite regularly), but nowadays I would just save an offline PDF copy on my phone. Phone storage is much less of a concern with most modern phones today so I do think it's worth revising our policies to be a bit more lax. //shb (t | c | m) 00:03, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

As a Wikibooks admin myself, it's probably the sheer volume of incomplete or abandoned books, coupled with low participation. Unlike, say, Wikipedia, Wikivoyage or Wikisource, you need to know the topic reasonably well before writing a book on Wikibooks (and thus there isn't a whole heap of collaboration on the same article). There's a long process to clean up many of the old/abandoned books but it's been a work in progress for at least 2 years. //shb (t | c | m) 00:39, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. And the nice thing about a textbook is that you can come back to it and complete it. That's not true of news: if news isn't completed or written, it ceases to be news at all. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:40, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah that's why I think the entire premise of Wikinews was always a bit problematic from the get-go (and why I was in support of closing many of the smaller Wikinews projects even before the SPTF consultation came to fruition). //shb (t | c | m) 00:50, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but I disagree that the response to the criticism was unwarranted. The most appropriate course of action for a committee when reviewing the project is to actually address the project directly and work with them on how to improve the project going forward. SPTF, however, didn't do that – they notified Wikinews at the same time when all other projects were notified (see my message earlier for the link). You could argue that this might have been a genuine error, but when this was brought up multiple times, SPTF was either virtually unresponsive to all criticism on the lack of communication or Victoria doubled down by saying that being involved in a consultation that involving your home project is a supposed conflict of interest. When you consult a community so poorly without even trying to hide that, it is a perfectly normal human reaction to react in such a way. //shb (t | c | m) 00:33, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Over the past decade, the English Wikivoyage has received about 2.5 times the number of pageviews as English Wikinews. Of course there are other languages but English is usually the biggest wiki for all Wikimedian wikis so it's easiest to compare. Also if you look carefully at the stats, the gap between Wikivoyage and Wikinews has grown in recent years. So I think we are pretty safe in the short term. As far how we can grow, there is so much to unpack but I still believe that in addition to the legacy W-travel content which has remained unchanged, many editors are not sufficiently paraphrasing content brought in from Wikipedia. There are sentences added verbatim which 1. isn't appropriate when the tone of our articles are meant to much more casual and fun than bland and technical Wikipedia and 2. The duplicated content continues to penalise us in the SEO rankings. There are e.g. plenty of articles which go into Köppen climate classifications. The climate and weather sections of a city should be written as if you're talking to a friend who wants to travel to a place where you've recently been. Most of our articles should be written like that. I'm mindful that internet users aren't clicking on search links as much as they used to because they often just read the AI summaries up the top (funnily enough AI often uses wikis as a major source for their summaries) but serious travellers planning a trip will still want detail and click further.

Another big hole is the absence of an online app. Wikivoyage readers will continue to be skewed to desktop and laptop users instead of tablets and phones (where younger generations spend more of their time on) if we continue to only rely on a website URL. Addressing this is unfortunately out of our hands though as developing an app for Wikivoyage is not high priority for the WMF. Gizza ^(roam) 01:10, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's the thing that's most likely to kill Wikivoyage in the next few years, I think. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:14, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh absolutely – this will be the downfall of basically every Wikimedia project that is not Wikipedia (atp Commons only has an Android app). //shb (t | c | m) 01:35, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Even the web wrappers of mobile-optimized websites are better than nothing IMO, and I often like to download various mobile-optimized websites as progressive web apps as a young adult user, especially when there are no native versions of them in Play Store (or App Store if you're in iOS). Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 02:24, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps tangentially, I nominated Nairobi for DotM a while before Wikimania took place there, expecting that some of the participants would read and use the article, notice the nomination banner, and edit/update the article or just even add something little. Aside of two Brendan edits, the article history shows zero edits from that time. Unfortunately Wikivoyage does not seem interesting or attractive to editors of other wikis even during and after their travels :( . --Ypsilon (talk) 04:37, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think there is a travel guide app that uses Wikivoyage's content, but it's unofficial and gets updated only every once in a while. More users coming from other projects (and particularly Wikipedia) would be a great help even though our policies are not the same. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 11:40, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

(But I can't find it now, so perhaps it doesn't exist anymore. Regardless, the creation of an app for Wikivoyage and other projects should be a priority for WMF — it's where the future is and surely wouldn't be hard to create.) --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 11:41, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Are you talking about Wikivoyage:Kiwix? Yeah that is nice but it's a shame everything is offline. //shb (t | c | m) 12:08, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Maybe, I think there was another, though, specifically for Wikivoyage. I'm not sure as the last time I checked was several years ago.

We definitely need an official app. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:11, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000 doesn't want offline app (exactly the only reasonable use of an app), and you want basically a browser wrapper so that the users don't need to enter wikivoyage.org into a browser... strange times :-D -- andree 15:48, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I should clarify that by offline app, I don't want to have to download the entire wiki on my phone periodically every few years or so (like how Kiwix works), rather than an online app that has the ability to save pages offline (huge benefit for park articles). //shb (t | c | m) 22:38, 5 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

"does not seem interesting or attractive to editors of other wikis even during and after their travels": I was thinking, if something alike "OSM notes" would be useful for this. Basically some "Suggest change" floating icon for article? Maybe even something that would just post the suggestion into the talk page would suffice? And ideally we'd have some list of such suggestions, to efficiently process/reject those... This may only be useful for less-frequented areas, because big cities are usually sufficiently covered and changes are not even needed. -- andree 08:05, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have also watched the response to the m:Proposal for Closing Wikinews and the related m:Public consultation about Wikinews. I don't think that Wikivoyage need fear that we're next on the chopping block.

I found the numbers in the m:Proposal for Closing Wikinews to be informative, and if you are interested in facts and the criteria that the Board uses to evaluate success or failure (e.g., "Alignment with Mission"), then I suggest reading it. Here are a few things I learned:

Summary:

• Wikivoyage has a lot more readers than Wikinews.
• Wikivoyage creates more articles than Wikinews.
• Wikivoyage communities are bigger than Wikinews communities.
• Wikivoyage communities are more active than Wikinews communities.

Long version:

Only 20% of Wikinews page views go to humans. In three months, all the Wikinewses combined got 10 million page views from human readers. English Wikivoyage alone got 30 times this in the last three months. Most of the "visitors" to Wikinews are clearly not looking for news articles, because 90% of the most popular search terms are in Russian and for baby names. (I'm not kidding: "Japanese female names", "Korean names", "beautiful names for girls Muslim", and so forth.)

It's not surprising that human readers don't visit the sites, because Wikinews writes almost no articles. For example, when I checked in ~July, the German Wikinews had written just one (1) article in the entire previous month; it was a slightly TOUTy article from a newbie about a minor politician. Almost everything at Russian Wikinews is bots copy/pasting free content from other news sites – which, as Wikivoyage knows better than most, kills SEO. Search engines index the pages (spider bots are 70% of the traffic to Wikinews), but they rank it low. For example, the featured article at enwikinews is about German unemployment; searching for information about 'German unemployment 2025' puts it on the second page of results – and that's a good result. If you copy/paste the article's full headline into other search engines, Bing puts Wikinews halfway down the first page, and both Yahoo! and DuckDuckGo put Wikinews on the second page. We don't expect a simple search on "London" to rank Wikivoyage high, but if you search for one of our longer or more unique page titles, like Itinerary of the Opera dei Pupi, Wikivoyage is often on the first page (for that example, Google lists us first).

The English Wikinews reported early in the discussion that they have improved their output: they had been officially publishing 8 news articles per month, and they had recently achieved the milestone of 9. For comparison, here at the English Wikivoyage, we created about ten times that many articles in the last month, which is particularly impressive when you remember that a newspaper could easily write a hundred news articles about even a smallish city in a month, while we can pretty much only create one article ever for that same city. One of the committee's problems with Wikinews is that if you produce one news article every three or four days, you're not really achieving the goal of educating people about what's going on in the world.

One of the reasons for this lack of content creation is that the core communities are tiny (e.g., Chinese Wikinews is largely written by three editors; German Wikinews is basically one editor). At the most active English Wikinews community discussion page, there are a couple of discussions about their future. There are more Wikivoyagers talking about Wikinews' future in this discussion right here, than there are long-time English Wikinewsies on the whole page.

Many of the communities don't seem to keep up with basic maintenance, either. Right now, the English Wikinews, which is the biggest by number of registered editors and admins, has 18 articles up for "speedy deletion", several of which are tagged as pure vandalism, in the main namespace, and have been waiting a couple of days for an admin to delete them. They have 17 human admins. It only takes one to check and empty that cat every day or two. (The same cat here is empty, of course. Some of our admins obviously watch Special:RecentChanges and zap vandalism pages on sight.)

If you want to go read the discussions on Meta-Wiki, keep in mind that lot of the comments are Wikinews editors dealing with their emotions. One editor said that Wikinews was valued because it felt like a job that you couldn't be fired from. The overall discussion feels like a workplace conversation right after the company announced long overdue layoffs.

What I think we could learn:

• Optimize for long-term success. Like Wikinews, and unlike Wiktionary, our content needs to be updated regularly. That means that a viable Wikivoyage needs more editors than a viable Wiktionary. The movement as a whole should probably raise the barrier to creating new language editions in general, and specifically for projects that need up-to-date information. We can prevent painful closures by preventing overly optimistic openings.
• If you're not growing, you're shrinking. We should consider opportunities for recruiting. School clubs to update their local area? Ask the WMF to fund an advertising campaign for new editors ("See what Wikipedia's sister travel guide got wrong about your city"?!)? A presentation at a tourism conference? Have an annual "Wiki Loves Tourism" campaign? Start work earlier on our birthday contest?
• Consider some changes. One of the recurring themes in the Wikinews discussions is that the long-standing rules hinder article creation. Maybe we should reconsider some of our long-standing rules. For example, as raised above, should we continue to prioritize paper printouts?
• If we don't face unpleasant facts, it will eventually be done for us. We could institute a review process for the smallest Wikivoyages, with a plan for helping them. We know what a functioning Wikivoyage community looks like. What if long-time Wikivoyagers from a couple of different languages could go to, e.g., the Hindi Wikivoyage and say: this is a widely spoken language, with tremendous potential. And with almost no articles and almost no editors, you're basically failing. What can we do to help? And if the answer is that nothing works for that language (which may be true for small languages, but probably won't be for Hindi), then we should propose closure ourselves, instead of waiting for an outside group to tell us what to do.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:32, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Regarding the last point, I have repeatedly opposed the creation of smaller language Wikivoyages but keep getting shut down, much of it because Wikivoyage is apparently one of the few projects that actually grow post-incubation (how true this is I remain skeptical about). I wouldn't be opposed to creating a policy that ensures that a set number of articles are all present before launch – something like maybe all 200 or so countries, some certain global cities, and important parks and wonders. //shb (t | c | m) 23:34, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@WhatamIdoing: thanks for the input. These are some great observations. If we could create some kind of event that attracts editors from our sister sites, that would be terrific as per some earlier comments here, many of them aren't aware of what goes on here. Despite our differences from Wikipedia, I believe that many WP editors would enjoy the editing process here. I started at Wikipedia but the idea of being able to have the article sections already laid out for me (Understand, See, Do, etc.) combined with the replacement of citing sources with real-world knowledge is what originally attracted me to Wikivoyage. That said, I still edit at Wikipedia as well, so I think the same could lead to positive engagement from other writers at sister sites. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:24, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also I cleaned up the CSD category on Wikinews (local policy allows for it) and it's wild that an English project has vandalism unchecked for so long – not something you see for a wiki with 17 sysops. //shb (t | c | m) 04:19, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's incredible to me as, just a few years ago, I remember Wikinews being a good, up-to-date source for major news events. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:27, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

The English Wikinews was largely run for years by a single person, who has died a few years ago. This doesn't really explain why the others are in poor shape, but they have struggled at enwikinews to organize themselves.

Businesses sometimes talk about a "bus test": What would happen to the company, if this key employee got hit by a bus/was suddenly out of the office and unreachable? (I've even heard of a few that simulate this by sending a manager on a holiday with no warning.)

A possible 'lesson learned' for us is never become overly reliant on one person. That could mean each of us deciding to do a little more (e.g., I check Special:RecentChanges a few times a year: Could I do more?) or a little less (e.g., if one admin thinks they're the only one checking a backlog categoriy, maybe they could post a note here at the travellers' pub that says "Hey, is anyone else keeping an eye on this cat? I'd love it if someone else was checking it every day"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:31, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh yes, I am aware of Pi-zero – he did dedicate an insane amount of his time to both enwikinews and enwikibooks (the latter where I became familiar with him) for sure. //shb (t | c | m) 19:46, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh okay, that explains a lot. I do think we have more diversity here, although we've lost some reliable admins in recent years. But I think we have a diversity of expertise, with a couple admins good at dealing with touts and content issues, and others good at code and templates (looking at you shb). --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 20:20, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

As part of the few discussions we've had above for possibly modernising this site, something I experimented using the {{listing}} template was adding a direct link to OSM directions if a listing has coordinates (both the lat and the long fields need to be filled in). It's not Google Maps, Waze or Apple Maps by any means and I'm not sure how many people (if any) actually use OSM's directions feature, but it is something.

Unfortunately, the nature of the sandbox templates (which is in a half-broken state) meant that I found it far easier to just use the main template itself, but that does mean that you can see this change directly for yourself on any listing template. From what I've been able to find using OSM help pages, the way I've written the URL tries to ensure it uses your device's current location in the from field. It can be manually turned off using |osm=no if needed (see Canberra/Acton#See for an example) and you can change the default mode of transport and the routing application it uses.

There is a bit more that needs to be done to fully implement this, but I would ideally want to hold off from doing it until there's sufficient consensus. However, most of what readers will potentially find useful has already been implemented and you should be able to see this change on any listing with coordinates.

//shb (t | c | m) 01:07, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

This sounds like a really interesting idea. I think I'd like to see a mockup first, if that's possible, such as an experimental template and start with that. But it would be some great progress. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:25, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SelfieCity: I couldn't do a mockup because the sandbox templates are half broken (and {{marker/sandbox}}, which all the sandbox templates rely on, was deleted) – but you should be able to see it in action on any page with listings if you purge your cache. //shb (t | c | m) 04:02, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh, okay. I see now. A couple things: first, the concept is indeed excellent. That said Google Maps might be a good idea because (and maybe it's just me) as soon as I click to go to OSM, the map is inundated with those red "needs fixing" markers. (And I'm logged out.) I think the markers would be extremely confusing to users who aren't familiar with OSM.

Second, I'm not sure people will realize what the button is for. I think (Directions) or (Get directions) might be better because it was only obvious to me because the button is new and I had read this discussion. I doubt most casual readers click those buttons because, for a start, the Wikidata link would be remarkably confusing to a non-wiki editor and is listed before the new link to directions. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:23, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

About the red flags on the map. You can see them because you opt-in . Probably by clicking on the "add a note to de map" button. You can turn off the red flags by clicking on the layers button , scrolling down the right bar and un-selecting the "map notes" button. Mmorell (talk) 07:59, 9 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

This would pretty OK, but I'd say the main missing feature (here and in the normal dynamic map) is that it doesn't show/use the current user position... -- andree 10:15, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, the main downside of OSM is that it does require user input for their own location. I would kinda prefer to do it with Google Maps (which can also be very reasonably implemented), but I'm on two fronts with Google Maps (which does show your own location): travellers are far more likely to find that useful so per WV:TTCF, it would be the more logical choice; however, it somewhat feels a bit odd to pick out just one mapping service, though I suppose it can be justified considering that it's not possible to have direct links with Apple Maps or Waze. //shb (t | c | m) 10:45, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I honestly don't think it's a huge problem. It's clear from the text "from" that it's where you type in a start location, and while that isn't on the cutting edge of GPS technology, it's a still a major improvement over us providing no directions at all. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:26, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Shb, how are you thinking of using Google Maps? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:30, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Similar to how the OSM button currently works, except using Google Maps instead (and your location would be determined using your device settings – which depends on how you use Google Maps IRL). //shb (t | c | m) 19:43, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also I am well aware that this will also be a change to our external links policy...but there are always exceptions to everything (which are needed if we want to modernise our site). //shb (t | c | m) 19:46, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm less concerned about that than whether we'd cause some problems for ourselves by relying on a monopolistic corporation that's been heavily fined in Europe and might run afoul of who knows who. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:37, 8 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: It's a question I had too, also because I have a reputation IRL for never using Google Maps because they keep breaking perfectly fine things, so I end up using Waze when driving, Apple Maps when walking and NextThere for public transit (it's a niche Australian public transit app). That said, Google Maps remains the most popular mapping app in most countries so I do think it makes the most sense per WV:TTCF, no matter how shady or monopolistic they can be – and I suppose we can still maintain the OSM link for those who aren't a fan of Google (also sorry for late response, I was interstate all week). //shb (t | c | m) 23:41, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I just added Google Maps directions as well, adjacent to OSM directions. I'm not sure how effectively it works on all devices, but you should be able to see "OSM directions" or "Google Maps directions" in the hoverover – do you also see what I'm seeing on my end? I'll upload screenshots in a moment. (cc SelfieCity and andree.sk) //shb (t | c | m) 00:34, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi. I tried this feature with my cell phone , and showed directions from my current position to the place I picked in wikivoyage. I only had to allow the app to use my positioning.

I'm worried by the fact that if you include lat=,Long= it works fine , but if the item is positioned by adding the wikidata code it DOES NOT WORK. And I try position places using wikidata as much as possible, even editing OSM to add the wikidata code to a place, in order to use it in the listing I'm creating at that moment. Mmorell (talk) 07:48, 9 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's designed to only display when the lat and long fields are explicitly filled in – unfortunately, I'm not that well-versed with Wikidata properties to know how to fetch coords from Wikidata. :( //shb (t | c | m) 10:05, 13 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It’s working! --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:40, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I just tested it with Apple CarPlay (even though I don't normally use Google Maps) and goodness does it feel very seamless! If only we had a mobile app, would've been even more seamless. //shb (t | c | m) 03:02, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Google Maps icons are now showing up in listings for destinations in China, where Google Maps is almost completely useless. I do not think this is a good idea. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:42, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

You can still use the OSM link for China, though (same goes with South Korea) – it's not a forced choice. //shb (t | c | m) 03:49, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

To be clear, I like the new OSM links, but Google Maps links are useless and confusing clutter for destinations in China. Even in other articles, I think it's questionable to indiscriminately promote a proprietary, for-profit mapping service in every listing, but for China articles I think there's no question this is a mistake. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:51, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

An alternative solution could be to turn Google Maps directions by default off (while OSM directions are on by default) – that would solve both those issues while still allowing the use of what is the most popular navigation app in most of the world. //shb (t | c | m) 04:05, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hmm actually I think I might have a way to disable it on all China/SK pages by default – it would require using the page's Wikidata item to supress all Google Maps links but I think it can be done. Give me a few days. //shb (t | c | m) 04:34, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It seems to bump "last updated date" to a new line, instead of immediately right after the map links. Can this be fixed? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:54, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Done, should be fixed (you might need to clear your cache). //shb (t | c | m) 04:58, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've now fixed it for China and South Korea (which should work so long as the Wikidata item has P17 defined). I do get your reservations (especially as someone who does not like Google Maps), but statistically more travellers are likely to use Google Maps than any other mapping service (and there is no possible way to link Apple Maps, Citymapper or Flitsmeister); in my view, it's a necessary evil we have to make if we want to effectively compete with Expedia, LonelyPlanet or Tripadvisor (and an issue that was raised here). //shb (t | c | m) 06:54, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Google Maps icons are still showing up in many of the listings in the first article I checked, Shenzhen/Center. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:16, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Seems the issue with that article is it's not connected to a Wikidata item at all. //shb (t | c | m) 22:26, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It was worse: all Shenzhen district articles had this issue for this reason. I tried to connect them to the largest district articles but I do not know Shenzhen. It's not a fault with the module in this case because generally all Wikivoyage articles should be connected to a Wikidata item. //shb (t | c | m) 23:07, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've removed three of the Wikidata connections, which were incorrect. The "East", "West", and "Center" districts are Wikivoyage's invention, made by combining multiple administrative districts, so there are probably no existing Wikidata items for them. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:55, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

If there is no existing Wikidata item, you have to create them – however, it's very standard to connect them to the largest and/or most relevant district (I went by area) such that it appears on the sidebar on sister projects. The practice is not "incorrect" as you claim, though. //shb (t | c | m) 14:05, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Works for me too, but I have a feeling some people will have a problem with too many icons (perhaps a drop-down could be used).... :) It'd be great if e.g. on android, there could be some URL that user can redirect to any app (OsmAnd/Mapy.com/Organic maps etc.), but I can't find a way to do that. Perhaps would be doable using the special app, though. -- andree 19:11, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'd be good with a dropdown – but I'm not sure how that could be implemented or even if it can be implemented in the first place. //shb (t | c | m) 14:06, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think that, ultimately, we need to commit to either OSM or Google Maps. Likewise, I think Wikidata shouldn't be visible to those logged out. It's really an internal tool, and removing it for logged out users would reduce the clutter. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 18:44, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think the issue we'd run into by committing to either one is we're always going to have people who will take issue with the use of Google Maps (even in a majority of the world where Google Maps remains the most popular navigation app) and OSM isn't of much help to most travellers (no specific app, no seamless integration with Apple CarPlay/Android Auto, cannot be downloaded offline), and providing both is the only way to give users a choice. //shb (t | c | m) 12:13, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Good point. Is there any way to track how much those links are used — to be clear, not to track who is using them but just how much they are used? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 01:27, 22 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't believe so, at least not to my knowledge. :( //shb (t | c | m) 02:25, 28 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@andree.sk, SelfieCity: So turns out there's now a new beta feature that Apple seems to be trying with their web version, making it possible to display such links in the same way Google does (and suppress for China/SK). I do wonder if it'll genuinely be possible to create a dropdown and make it not suck on mobile. I think 3 would be pushing the limits and wanted more opinions before testing it. Maybe possible tweaking the site's css/js such that it's only a hoverover dropdown on desktop? //shb (t | c | m) 07:29, 28 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think that would be a good idea. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:49, 28 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think for the timebeing I'll have to place Apple markers as an icon similar to Google and OSM for now – but when I get some more time maybe I'll get the dropdown menu working. //shb (t | c | m) 22:40, 6 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I started this on the talk page of English language varieties, but it is probably of wider interest:

Battery electric vehicle‌s (BEVs) are becoming more common around the world, including in English-speaking countries (though leading states like Norway or the People's Republic of China are of course not). Do they have an influence on car-related terms or even sections on travel by car? Are they worth their own article or subsection? In German at least, I have for example heard Fahrpedal (lit. "driving pedal") or even Strompedal (lit. "electricity/electric pedal") instead of gas pedal PragmaFisch (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've been including information about EV charging availability, local charging standards etc when I update "Driving in X" articles. In terms of language, though, EVs don't differ meaningfully from ICEs, pretty much the only words you'd need to know are "charge/charger". Asamboi (talk) 11:16, 10 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I do wonder whether we should have a specific article about travel via electric vehicle, discussing where charging points can be found in various countries and how they operate by country. Especially as BYD cars are becoming widespread. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:48, 10 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I just know the basics, but wouldn't for example gas pedal need to be changed, or could it carry over as a colloquial term? An article on Travelling by electric vehicle itself is an interesting idea though. PragmaFisch (talk) 12:22, 12 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah. I think an article specifically about travel by electric vehicle could mention the differences in terminology across countries. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:10, 12 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think gas pedal is just a colloquial term? Not too sure because it's called the accelerator (or the accel) where I am, which would have no difference in EVs. //shb (t | c | m) 23:24, 12 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Here's something we might want to add to any such article: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/sep/13/extreme-nausea-are-evs-causing-car-sickness-and-what-can-be-done says that some passengers have worse motion sickness in EVs than in other cars. I could imagine trying out an EV as a rental car on a trip. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 13 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Some information on electric vehicles could be added to our general articles like Driving and Renting a car. Long distance journeys need to be planed differently. If you (and maybe another driver) are driving for 12 hours in a fuel car, you only need to stop for 5 minutes to refuel and this can be separate from refreshment stops. In an electric car, you may need to plan longer breaks at charging points. AlasdairW (talk) 21:43, 13 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ideally you'd probably want to plan your lunch breaks around charging breaks. Still would be way less ideal for a roadtrip, however. //shb (t | c | m) 23:52, 13 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

When I was young, I could easily sit in a car for 12 hours with only the occasional hurried stop.

Now, an ideal roadtrip would involve stopping at least every two hours. There would definitely be a leisurely lunch, and if I needed to be 12 hours' away, there'd probably be a hotel room in the middle, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Personally I try and take a break every 3 hours or so if I'm traveling with someone else, but if I'm driving solo that becomes 2 hours. I think I'd probably max out at 8 hours in one day solo (and maybe 14 if I'm with someone else)...but I definitely wouldn't do any of that in one go. A good lunch in the middle would be a must, maybe a hike along the way too. //shb (t | c | m) 08:59, 20 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20250905-is-cheese-the-new-reason-to-travel Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 16:41, 10 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

We, in fact, do have an article about Cheese. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:47, 10 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh, I didn't realize this. I have been less active in all Wikimedia projects these days. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 18:18, 10 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I recently read an article, and noticed terms like this one "bikini babes": https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?search=bikini+babes&title=Special%3ASearch&ns0=1

This feels a bit antiquated and objectifying, but I'm not sure it flies against the style guide as it currently stands. Any opinions? Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 12:54, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree that "where hunks strut and bikini babes oil up in summer" is not the kind of language I would want or expect here. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:59, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Wikivoyage can do better. Edit away.... Ground Zero (talk) 13:11, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

All that nonsense is removed now. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:19, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

That was quick! Thanks a bunch! If I find something else I'll mention it here in the future as well. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 14:05, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Or you could just edit it yourself. Mrkstvns (talk) 15:55, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Noted, Mrkstvns. I’m sure I’ll get the hang of making edits myself, but it’s nice that some people are so fast to step in. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 15:57, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

From what I can see, you've been well able to edit. Do make similar edits when you see inappropriate or awkward phrases. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

And there's also value in telling the community if there's a larger problem. While fixing it yourself is great, you may not feel able and you may want to tell us about an issue. Thanks for surfacing this. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:45, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also because chatting about problems or ideas can prompt other edits. I went to check out this problem and discovered that one of the articles had a huge amount of out-of-town information, so I moved those listings to more geographically relevant destination articles. We get direct and indirect benefits. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:49, 12 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree that "where hunks strut and bikini babes oil up in summer" is less than ideal, but it does at least give a vivid image. It is far better than saying nothing on the topic & should not just be deleted. Perhaps replace it with something like "where hotties of both genders display themselves". Pashley (talk) 13:19, 12 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

How about "where good-looking men and women hang out" or something like that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

m:Wikipedia 25/Easter egg experiments looks like something we might want to do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Would be a fun idea indeed. //shb (t | c | m) 13:25, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

We’ve been adding audio pronunciations to the Igbo phrasebook. Some are correctly displayed but some came out red linked like this. Any help or suggestions to fix this? King ChristLike (talk) 21:08, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

When I edit that article and click "Show preview", I see a warning:

Warning: This page contains too many expensive parser function calls.

It should have less than 500 calls, there are now 804 calls.

I wonder if 800 uses of Template:Audio in one page is too many for the MediaWiki software to handle. User:Andree.sk has helped with technical issues like this before, they might have insight. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:39, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I reckon it really takes too long to expand the template, considering the amount of invocations. If you can live with invalid links, the template could be simplified (or e.g. {{AudioUnchecked}} created) so it only does the expansion and no file existence checking... -- andree 11:54, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

We had similar issues with the Portuguese phrasebook a while back too. I don't remember how that was resolved. //shb (t | c | m) 12:09, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't remember it being resolved. Was it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:14, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I honestly couldn't tell you :(. //shb (t | c | m) 13:15, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

There are no templates used there, to refer to the audio files, hence no such issues... -- andree 13:36, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, everything seems to work in the Portuguese phrasebook. User:King ChristLike and User:Aminwa 21, can you use the same format that phrasebook uses? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:30, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, most likely. Thanks for the suggestion. King ChristLike (talk) 23:41, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your swift response and resolution, we will do just that. Aminwa 21 (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello! Please I need help with a situation. We are working on a project to add the audios of the phrases that we have on the Igbo Phrasebook. It all started off well but on the long run, some of the file all turned red without the audio being displayed.

I really need help with this. I think the page is loaded/heavy, how can this be resolved? Aminwa 21 (talk) 21:39, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Look at the thread immediately above this one, where we're already discussing the problem. Thanks for all your work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:30, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh wow! Thank you so much for pointing this out, I really appreciate. Aminwa 21 (talk) 06:33, 18 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Trizek (WMF) (Discussion) 15:41, 18 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Looking at the expeditions menu, I realize they’re all for continents. There’s a few for states/countries, but not many. I propose making a Wikivoyage expedition for Chicago for three reasons:

• Chicago is a world city, global.
• Chicago is vast.
• All of Chicago could use improvement.

PhilDaBirdMan (talk) 00:10, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you want to get this started, I certainly don't oppose it. However, per Wikivoyage:Plunge forward, you can go ahead yourself and make any edits you feel are lacking in the article. You can also start a checklist in your userspace if you'd like to keep track of what you feel needs improvement. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 01:21, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

So it’s like Wikipedia: i can do stuff myself within user page, or i can try to rally people together with a tattered project.

I’ll make a expedition. PhilDaBirdMan (talk) 01:35, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

To add onto what SelfieCity said, while you're free to do so, I will say it's very rare to have expeditions for individual cities. I think you're better off creating an Illinois Expedition with a subpage for Chicago; the byproduct of that is all other Illinois articles also now have an expedition. //shb (t | c | m) 06:36, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also, unless I'm very much mistaken, Chicago and several district pages are star-level articles, so while updates are needed, overall improvements to the articles in terms of writing or organization are hardly among the more urgent tasks on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:23, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Okay, ill keep that in mind. PhilDaBirdMan (talk) 11:00, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, just go for it and update the article as needed. I have added what I can, including the information about Chicago-style barbecue (which most tourists or even white locals won't encounter because they don't got to the African-American neighbourhoods), but feel free to make some stylistic edits. The dog2 (talk) 16:01, 19 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

One of the things I've always hated when reading this site on mobile is the lack of a back to top button. While it is always possible to just scroll up, this gets real annoying and degrades the overall user experience, particularly for longer articles (especially large cities). It's also something I wish was a thing on desktop too, but Vector 2022 does solve that so I don't see it being a huge priority.

I'm envisioning something where such a button (hopefully with a smooth transition) appears the moment you scroll 250–300 pixels beneath the top on the bottom right corner (since users are less likely to accidentally click on it since most people are right handed). The overall addition should not cause any negative issues to user experience and it's something that's fairly common on a lot of mobile websites nowadays anyway.

Thoughts on this? //shb (t | c | m) 02:00, 20 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sounds like a good idea. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:06, 20 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

This sounds like something for the m:Community Wishlist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:11, 20 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it might be doable tweaking the site's .css too. //shb (t | c | m) 00:11, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

In zh.wikivoyage, they have a gadget that show a button to quickly navigate to the top or bottom of the page (see voy:zh:MediaWiki:Gadget-scrollUpButton.js), and this gadget is currently enabled for everyone by default. I think that might helps. Nvdtn19 (talk) 00:20, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've asked someone off-wiki if they could implement such for mobile – shouldn't be controversial and policy permits for it. //shb (t | c | m) 11:37, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's now done and works really nicely – cheers DR. :) //shb (t | c | m) 22:13, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

This template currently has "Search full texts" button, which might not be a thing you guys would expected to show. I also see there's a CSS that aims to hide this in Template:Mapbanner/styles.css, but it seems this CSS doesn't works. To fix that, just changing |type=search to |type=search2 in the template. zh.wikivoyage and vi.wikivoyage are also doing this to hide that button. I can't edit that template myself since it's protected. Nvdtn19 (talk) 00:12, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Nvdtn19: I have granted you template editor perms – feel free to make the changes as you see fit. //shb (t | c | m) 00:21, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I've fixed that myself. Nvdtn19 (talk) 00:26, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Cheers – I've also given you the perms permanently because you're a sysop on viwikivoyage too (for recordkeeping purposes). //shb (t | c | m) 00:28, 21 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello all, could we check abuse filter 38 discussion please? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 01:35, 22 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've created a new page for the city of Anyang in South Korea. However, since a city with the same name in China already exists on Wikivoyage, I named the page 'Anyang city.'

Is this a good name? If there is a better option, please let me know. I would be happy to make the change. Thank you. CHAEBIN89 (talk) 05:44, 22 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Is that the same place as Anyang (Gyeonggi)? Because that Anyang is also in South Korea. I think the best title ultimately would be Anyang (South Korea).

Don't worry, though, moving pages is quite easy — you don't need to cut and paste the content to another page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:13, 22 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@CHAEBIN89 @SelfieCity I think that's the same location, yes. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 13:27, 22 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have merged the two articles. Ground Zero (talk) 15:15, 22 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero Thank you Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 06:41, 3 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you were going to migrate to another country, what would be your top pick as a place to move? BBC posted an interesting article that recommends 10 top countries for expats: https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20250922-the-best-countries-for-expats-in-2025

What do you guys think? Are those places you'd want to live out your life? Mrkstvns (talk) 13:50, 24 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

If I have to choose among the 10 top countries, I would prefer Asian countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, UAE and Vietnam, as I live in India. China is a difficult choice as I rely heavily on services that are banned in the country, including social media sites like Facebook and X. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 15:28, 24 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm surprised to see Mexico and Colombia but not Costa Rica. I think this is a subjective list. France, Spain and Italy should also be higher in my view. I don't know much about Southeast Asia. China seems like a bizarre pick for living abroad unless you speak Mandarin. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 18:51, 24 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I would assume cost-of-living concerns is a much larger issue in western Europe hence why they aren't higher. //shb (t | c | m) 00:09, 25 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

There's some discussion & (possibly obsolete) links to other lists in Retiring abroad.

I've lived in China & travelled about Asia a fair bit. I find the Philippines much easier than elsewhere in SE Asia because so many people speak English. India & perhaps Sri Lanka or Bangladesh would appeal for the same reason. Pashley (talk) 19:03, 24 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm surprised to see mostly tropical countries listed in these days of global warming, though for example, Colombia has highlands. Also, a couple of them are dictatorships: to me, the idea of moving to China right now is bizarre. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 24 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

In my view there is no one answer. There are two major questions that need to be answered before one can even start to look at the situation objectively.

• Firstly, is one looking at a short-term stay with a permanent base in one’s home country or a long-term stay where one’s permanent base will be in the host country?
• Secondly, where is one’s home country and what s one’s citizenship? This determines a number of things including taxation and ability to return home should things go wrong (for example, if one is incapacitated, will one be able to get assistance in one’s home country or does one need to rely on the facilities in the host country.
• Thirdly, at what stage is one in one’s life? The needs of the recent graduate are different to the needs of the person raising a young family, which again are different to the needs of a mature person whose children have “flown the nest” and the needs of a retiree are different again.

In short, there are a multitude of issues, not all of which affect everybody. What might be “best” for one is not necessarily “best” for another. Martinvl (talk) 21:03, 24 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

It seems like the article focuses on working professionals specificially, as an "expat" refers to a working professional who lives outside their native country. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 01:46, 25 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

We have some stuff at working abroad & digital nomad. Pashley (talk) 02:25, 25 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Almost any expat site might have a discussion of this for their particular country or region. e,g. I recall a discussion on Raoul's China Expat Saloon that ranked Xiamen & Suzhou very high & mentioned many others. Pashley (talk) 22:35, 29 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Expat is short for expatriate, who is anyone who lives outside of their native land. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:34, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://www.wired.com/story/how-a-travel-youtuber-captured-nepals-revolution-for-the-world/

Additionally, for those who don't know: Wired have published a lot of great reportage lately. While they are primarily technology-focused, they interpret that broadly. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:57, 30 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Happy October, everyone. A quick TLDR of this proposal: it's a proposal to reduce the VfD time period from 14 days to 7 days.

I've been thinking about this for some time and slowly documented the number of days a VfD discussion goes on for. As you can see from the chart, very few discussions ever exceed the 7 day mark, with three of those discussions that went over 7 going for 8 days, one for 10 days, and three over 14 days (24, 31 and 36). This means that out of our 41 nominations, only 4 were between the 7–14 day period. The other 83 per cent of discussions all went for under 7 days.

This, in my view, is problematic for various reasons – it goes without saying that based on the stats, most discussion happens in the first week or so; having the nomination period extend up to 14 days just unnecessarily prolongs the period.

Another issue with a 14-day voting period is that it increases the backlog – backlog, isn't just how many pages get nominated for deletions. In a lot of cases, the outcome of a VfD is what determines if page needs cleanup (especially the copyvios/AI-generated articles) – if you absolutely know that an article will be deleted, then it's not worth cleaning it up. 14 days, however, makes this process longer.

I also don't think reducing the length removes fairness either – 7 days is still a long time to weigh in. It's also more consistent with other projects such as Meta or the English Wikipedia. Just about nothing makes sense to keep the 14 day period. //shb (t | c | m) 04:30, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I tend to be skeptical of this proposal. By its nature, this is a site of travelers, so if we reduce the time for discussions, it's likely that someone who was on a trip and might have been outside of Wi-Fi and cellphone signal range would have missed a chance to participate. I think we've already made exceptions for obvious cases of articles without any information, and if not, I'd support those being given no more than 7 days, but anything that needs discussion or realistically might be saved by some editing should be given 14 days. I can think of lots of cases of itinerary articles that were saved by some editing that might have taken more than a week to be sufficient to convince a consensus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Based on past precedent, we've been fairly gracious for users who are travelling and are working on articles, so I don't think reducing the time period will change much – but I would be okay with having a grace period for such articles. //shb (t | c | m) 06:41, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

But there are also users who are not working on articles but could miss a discussion they would have taken part in. I recall that kind of thing happening, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

What would be the benefit of this change? I've read the two paragraphs starting with "This, in my view, is problematic", but they don't seem to explain what makes a 14-day period worse than a 7-day period. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:00, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Heaps – unnecessary backlog and increased uncertainty, so greater efficiency. VfD in its current form is incredibly frustrating to use and the stale nominations (from almost no input after the 7th day) adds unnecessary clutter (I've held off nominations for this reason before because I know it's going to have less participation if there's more clutter on the VfD page). //shb (t | c | m) 12:22, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Conversely, we should really be asking the inverse – what benefit is there to keeping things in limbo for 14 straight days when the stats show that this is unnecessary for over 80% of nominations? //shb (t | c | m) 12:23, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I do lean in favor of this proposal, though to be honest, I’m not sure why we have a set timeframe at all. In any other discussions on-wiki, a consensus, whenever it is achieved, decides, and it seems to me that deletion discussions should be the same. Such a change would enable clear-cut cases (like some recent redirect discussions) to be resolved within a few days while contentious cases could still take whatever time is needed. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:56, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm okay with 7 days when the discussion is not active and there's no real point of contention. But I do think people should be given a fair shot at having their voice heard. In my opinion 7 days should be the *minimum* time the discussion is open, but if a discussion had posts added in the previous 2-3 days, then it should be left open longer. I see in the stats that there were some discussions that went on for 10 days, 24 days, 30 days. Mrkstvns (talk) 14:00, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

To answer the question about the benefit of 14 days, it's that fairness to a traveling group of discussants is more important than rushing to decisions. And the question to me isn't how long it takes to make most decisions: it's not sacrificing the ~20% of decisions, which is still a substantial number. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:10, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think the proposal we should be discussing instead is whether to require 7 days for articles that have nothing in them but "X is in Y region" or whether to officially allow them to be summarily deleted without discussion. Or had we decided on that already? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I’m not sure, but I agree that we should allow those to be summarily deleted. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:27, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Maybe not the same day they're created, though. Sometimes people create very brief articles (e.g., just the first sentence) and then edit them to expand them. We don't want to delete the article while someone's in the act of expanding it. But if it's been around for even a day or two, that's unlikely to be a problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:02, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree. For a new user, just creating a barebones outline with "X is in Y region" may feel like a solid first step. (Years ago, I introduced someone to Wikivoyage who then started a new article that way.) It would be discouraging to make that first step and then have it deleted before you have the chance to add more content. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:23, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I also agree. It's probably best practice to check with the author first and give that person a few days to respond. Then, when no response is received, make the nomination and delete after a few days if there is support for deletion.

That's the timeline I'd have in mind. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:06, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I also agree with this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:25, 2 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with that too – unless it's an abandoned stub (which is an entirely different issue since the scope of those articles is unclear), I tend to typically wait at least one month before nominating for deletion. //shb (t | c | m) 21:59, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's still worth noting that of that 20%, half of them went over 14 days – meaning the question of 7 vs 14 days affects very little. That really just means that only 10% of nominations will actually be affected based on this year's stats. //shb (t | c | m) 23:41, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I tend to lean towards keeping it at 14 days per Ikan Kekek and Mx. Granger. Feels like a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. It's important to give editors who may be away on short trips or otherwise busy an opportunity and time to voice their opinion. 14 days is a nice sweet spot allowing that and not letting stale discussions hang around on the VfD page. We don't have a massive log and we already have the speedy deletion process for urgent requests like copyright violations and outright vandalism. Gizza ^(roam) 00:23, 2 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

1. "Religious diets" or equivalent sections should include information for fasting Hindus. When Hindus fast, they must maintain a lacto-vegetarian diet without cross-contamination.
2. Can't people on religious diets simply buy their own ingredients and cook their own food when certified food isn't available? This is not like eating out where certification is favored; observers cook the food themselves. For example, strict kashrut requires at least some Jewish intervention.

Faster than Thunder (talk) 15:27, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

As a Hindu myself, I say that the information regarding Hindu fasts should go to Hindu-majority areas, just like the information on the Ramadan goes to Muslim-majority areas. For countries like India, Nepal, Mauritius and Fiji, the information goes to the respective country articles. For Sri Lanka, it goes to the Hindu/Tamil-majority provinces and districts. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 16:13, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hindus might travel during fasting periods, so they may need information for their dietary restrictions. Faster than Thunder (talk) 16:37, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Strict kashrut does not demand the involvement of Jews in any aspect of food or beverage production unless some form of grape wine is involved, but does require some form of rabbinic supervision to certify that laws are being followed, except to my knowledge in the cases of inherently kosher items such as fresh fruit and vegetables that don't have visible signs of insect infestation and most alcoholic beverages other than wine. But to reply to Sbb: if we limited information on the availability of kosher eateries and processed food to only places with Jewish majorities, our articles would be much less useful to kosher-observant Jews who want to or have to travel outside of Israel and maybe a few Chasidic communities and such. So why shouldn't we also try to similarly cater to Hindu travellers? I think that would be a good idea whenever someone has the knowledge and inclination to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:15, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with you. We should include info for fasting Hindus despite the low number of fasting days throughout the year. Faster than Thunder (talk) 17:43, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

We assume that people subscribing to a religion know their own religious rules. Our role isn't to inform them that they can cook for themselves. Our role is to point out appropriate services (e.g., a kosher restaurant, a halal butcher, a grocery store) and let them make their own choices. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:26, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20250926-the-perils-of-letting-ai-plan-your-next-trip

Roundup/discussion at /.: https://slashdot.org/story/25/10/06/0434206/what-happens-when-ai-directs-tourists-to-places-that-dont-exist —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:06, 6 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Somewhat off-topic, but I asked a chatbot to divide West Bengal into regions for tourism, and I found the following result:

• North Bengal (Himalayas and Terai): Alipurduar, Cooch Behar, Darjeeling, Jalpaiguri, Kalimpong
• North-Central Bengal (Rarh-Varendra transition): Dakshin Dinajpur, Malda, Murshidabad, Uttar Dinajpur
• South-Western Bengal (Rarh region): Birbhum, Bankura, Jhargram, Paschim Bardhaman, Paschim Medinipur, Purulia
• South-Central Bengal (Ganges Delta): Nadia, Hooghly, Howrah, North 24 Parganas, Purba Bardhaman
• Greater Kolkata: Hooghly, Howrah, Kolkata, Nadia, North 24 Parganas, South 24 Parganas
• Southern Bengal (coastal region): Purba Medinipur, South 24 Parganas

There are multiple issues with this approach:

• Although "Bengal" is often used as a shorthand of West Bengal here in India, the name is usually understood to mean a large plain region covering West Bengal, Bangladesh and others. However, it's not a big deal unless you talk about "East Bengal" or "Southeast Bengal".
• There are overlaps in South-Cental Bengal and Greater Kolkata regions.
• The two coastal districts Purba Medinipur and South 24 Parganas are not connected to each other directly on road or rail, instead relying on Kolkata and Howrah. So covering the two as separate regions makes more sense, and we have enough cities for this.

That's why I have decided to split the state into the following regions and subregions:

• North Bengal [has an article]
  • Darjeeling (district)
  • Kalimpong (district)
  • Dooars (bottom-level region): Alipurduar, Cooch Behar, Jalpaiguri
  • Northern Plains (bottom-level region): Dakshin Dinajpur, Malda, Uttar Dinajpur
• South Bengal [no article, will create one]
  • Hooghly
  • Howrah (district)
  • Kolkata
  • Murshidabad (district)
  • Nadia
  • North 24 Parganas
  • South 24 Parganas
• Southwest Bengal [has an article]
  • Jhargram (district)
  • Paschim Medinipur
  • Purba Medinipur
• Rarh [has an article]
  • Bankura (district)
  • Birbhum
  • Paschim Bardhaman
  • Purba Bardhaman
  • Purulia (district)

Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 05:56, 6 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

To any available admins, please take a look at filter 38. Thanks, //shb (t | c | m) 23:16, 6 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://jeremymaluf.com/onebag/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:40, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Most students have chosen their main projects: Anseong, Anyang (Gyeonggi), Asan, Busan/North, Busan/Suyeong, Cheongsong, Dujiangyan, Gimcheon, Gimpo, Goheung, Gumi, Gurye, Gwanggyo, Hadong, Haman, Hapcheon, Huaibei, Hwacheon, Ichikikushikino, Jangheung, Jiaozuo, Jingzhou, Kitahiroshima (Hokkaido), Ko Racha, Linfen, Miryang, Mokpo, Muan, Nan'ao Island, Nanhai (Foshan), Pingdingshan, Ruijin, Ruzhou, Sejong, Seoul/East, Seoul/Gangnam-Seocho, Seoul/South, Siheung, Taebaek, Tangshan, Tongnan, Uiwang, Ulleungdo, Xishuangbanna, Yeoju, Yesan, Zhongmu County. As usual, it may be a good idea to watchlist them until end of the year. I am giving feedback to students on my Wikipedia user talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Hanyangprofessor2). If there are any issues, you'd like to bring to my attention at article talk pages, or student talk pages, please ping me. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 08:42, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ps. If anyone would like to volunteer to receive extra pings for me due to their familiarity with Wikoyage manual of style, or Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Thai, or Japanese locations, please let me know. Occasionally I try to ping relevant Wikivoyage experts (you folks) when replying to students, but frankly, I am not active enough here to always remember "who's who" (I'll make a ping-cheatsheet for myself based on replies here, if any :P). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 08:51, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm happy to be pinged for Chinese locations.

From the list you gave, Xishuangbanna stands out as a popular destination where our coverage is already decent, so it's especially important for the student working on it to make sure their changes are genuine improvements.

As for Nanhai (Foshan), it's worth noting we currently cover it in the Foshan article, along with all other districts of Foshan except Shunde. I'm not sure if it makes sense to split Nanhai off, and if we do, it would leave the Foshan article as an awkwardly discontinuous combination of Chancheng and the outlying districts of Sanshui and Gaoming. If the student wants to create a new article for Nanhai, this is probably worth discussing at Talk:Foshan. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:35, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

For a city of supposedly 7 mil people, I am very surprised with how little content we have for Foshan. I don't know much about the Guangdong area, but from the perspective of someone who isn't familiar with the area, I'd find it more useful if the information were condensed together rather than to have a separate article for only one district of the city. //shb (t | c | m) 12:48, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The current population of Foshan is about 9.7 million and around a third of them live in Shunde District, which we cover in a separate article. STW932 (talk) 16:32, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Xishuangbanna is a region article, so the student may need to be reminded that individual listings belong in the city articles. STW932 (talk) 16:37, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Definitely, unless there are enough listings to district the entire city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Seen as how I wrote the Dynamic map guide especially for your students' use, I'm more than happy to be pinged and approached for anything ado with those dynamic maps. I currently am unable to actively patrol their work because of my own work though, so I hope that's not an issue. ― Wauteurz (talk) 21:15, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://magazine.atavist.com/2025/america-i95-conversations-trump —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:39, 9 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello all,

The voting period for the 2025 Board of Trustees election is now open. Candidates are running for two (2) seats on the Board.

To check your voter eligibility, please visit the voter eligibility page.

Learn more about them by reading their application statements and watch their candidacy videos.

When you are ready, go to the SecurePoll voting page to vote.

The vote is open from October 8 at 00:00 UTC to October 22 at 23:59 UTC.

Best regards,

Abhishek Suryawanshi
Chair, Elections Committee

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:49, 9 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Picking two candidates out of four with two candidates disqualified for no good reason. What a joke of an election honestly. Would highly encourage reading the Meta page I linked as well as m:Objections to the 2025 WMF Board election removals/Arab Community. I still voted, but if any of you are planning on voting, I would highly encourage giving those pages a read first. //shb (t | c | m) 08:13, 9 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, do you actually know that there was no good reason? Or are you just assuming there's no good reason, because you don't personally know what it is? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:00, 9 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

We might not know the full reason, but Lane already came out and disclosed the reasoning why to the best of what they were able to disclose and I find the WMF's reasoning utterly unconvincing. This is barely even touching the surface with Ravan whose reason hasn't been officially confirmed but highly likely due to her open stance on Palestine. Being barred from participating in an election just a few days before voting for your political views or because of your involvement with criticising the WMF really comes out as authoritarian, even more so when there is now a huge disconnect between BoT members and the general community. It speaks a lot for the WMF's lack of transparency at the very least. //shb (t | c | m) 23:33, 9 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

This isn't really "an election" in the sense of the winners definitely being placed on the Board. The WMF's Board is self-perpetuating. This is like an opinion poll, which the Board chooses to conduct, but which does not require them to do anything.

Consequently, if the Board has already decided that they weren't going to put these two people on the Board, would you really want them to let you vote, and, if they did "win", then say "Surprise! Guess what? We decided a week before the election that we weren't going to put this person on the Board, but we thought that we'd just let you vote anyway, in the hope that you wouldn't favor them and we could blame their non-appearance on the Board on the community instead of on ourselves." WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Neither situations are desirable and only goes to show how out of touch the Board is with the broader community. //shb (t | c | m) 02:21, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The Board's job is to do their fiduciary duty to their charitable purpose. "Being in touch with the broader community", no matter which minority you choose to consider "the broader community", is not their job. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:04, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps that is why they are ever so increasingly becoming deeply unpopular, as evidenced by those pages I linked. //shb (t | c | m) 03:15, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The Board's job isn't to be popular, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

So why do they bother to do this non-election? Also, are any non-self-perpetuating members of the community guaranteed to be on the board or normally put on it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Why do they bother? I think they get some value out of seeing who's the most popular with the affiliates and individual community members. I think that they want to have affiliate and community members on the board, and this is as good a way as any other to narrow down the list of candidates. The public process may help with the vetting, since a background check isn't going to pick up some things that you'd want to know. A background check will let them find out about things like drunk driving convictions or being in debt to a level that could present a bribery risk, but a public announcement gives them a chance to hear about things like, say, creepy behavior towards women at events. (I give these examples in the belief that none of them are relevant to any of the current or former candidates.)

Nobody is guaranteed a position on the WMF's board. The outgoing board is entitled to reject any or all candidates (and to throw them out later, if they seemed okay initially but the rest of the board decided later that they disliked having someone on it). However, they voluntarily created a requirement in the bylaws to have "a" community- or affiliate- nomination process for some board seats. Technically, it can be just about any process the board chooses, on any schedule the board chooses, and repeated as many times as necessary until they find a candidate they are willing to accept. However, we've never needed to have more than one round in the past, and as a general rule, whoever gets the most votes is usually the one whom the board appoints. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:22, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:32, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello, I'm develpoing yeoju. There were many parts missing from the article. So I add See / Do / Eat.

When writing the Eat section, I referred to the restaurants recommended on the official Yeoju City Hall website. However, I'm not sure what criteria I should use when writing the Bar section. Wkddmstjr05240524 (talk) 04:32, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Have you ever visited or lived in that area? If you have, I suggest putting your favorite restaurants or other places in the article. Sometimes I will write things like this:

• Lee's Golden Restaurant. Very good barbecue. Short walk from subway. The staff speak only Korean.
• Ko's Family Restaurant. Good place for families with children.
• Kim's Tourist Restaurant. American food. All waiters speak English.
• Chong's Little Flower Restaurant. Small restaurant with just five tables, but very good jajangmyeon noodles. If you don't speak Korean, just point at the pictures on the menu.

This way you can help different people find the best restaurant for what they want. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:40, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply