Talk:Bulgaria Voyage Tips and guide

Many pages use "100 lev", the buy section uses "лв100" before the amount. However, what seems to be common in restaurant menues and picture is just "100 лв".

If no one objects, I will go ahead and change the standard to "100 лв".

Cheers Ceever (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

The last time the regions were revised was almost ten years ago (see discussion), when one user single-handedly introduced the currently used division. There are several issues with it that haven't been fixed since then. The main issue is that the regions appear arbitrarily drawn and there's no clarity about how the borders were determined, so it's often hard to determine just from the map which places belong to a particular region and why. The author can't be asked for clarification, as they haven't been active on the project for many years. The map also misinforms - for example, on the map Dobrudja extends way, way outside of the historic borders of the actual Dobrudzha region; the Balkan mountains go more to the west than the map implies, etc. There's also not enough content for the Strandzha region - it can be reduced to a page about Strandzha National Park in some of the other regions. It looks like the author tried to make a "cultural map" of Bulgaria, but it doesn't quite match any map of the ethnographic regions of Bulgaria that I could find, and they wouldn't be a good guide to travel anyway. The map image itself needs work, e.g. because it seems to omit railway connections (or those shown are just the international lines?).

So, new regions are necessary. The options are:

A) Revert to the old regions map, which split the country into 5: Northwest Bulgaria, Southwest Bulgaria, Northern Thrace, Bulgarian Black Sea Coast, Norther Central Bulgaria. It was inherited from Wikitravel and it's still used there.

B) Use the physical-geographical regions used in Bulgarian geography (example map, I have a better one in my atlas but I can't upload an image for obvious reasons). Depending on which sub-regions we use, there can be between 5 and 14 regions. The main ones: Danubian Plain (can be split in 3, east to west), Balkan Mountains (can be split in 2 - lengthwise), Transitional Region (can be split in 2 to 5 subregions), Rila-Rhodopes (can be split in 4) and the Black Sea Coast. The main cons are that those regions are defined by terrain features, so the problem of easily determining what goes where will remain, and the way the regions are defined is often not very useful to travelers.

C) Use the NUTS 2 regions OR something based on it by shuffling some provinces around to better match geographic intuitions. They are 6: Northeastern, Northern Central, Northwestern, Southwestern, South Central, Southeastern. Pros: Most Bulgarians already think about Bulgaria approximately like this (though what belongs to which region will be different from NUTS); clear administrative boundaries means that objects can be put very easily into each region; it cuts Bulgaria in six approximately equal chunks. Cons: not necessarily useful to travelers, though more useful than B) option for travel planning due to the way the road network was developed - the Balkan Mountains split the country in two.

D) Last but not least: since 2015, Bulgaria has 9 officially defined tourist regions for the purpose of tourism marketing. See the map here and the official website of the Ministry of Tourism if you can read Bulgarian. We can use them, but not necessarily under the same names:

1. Rila-Pirin region - includes both alpine-type mountains in Bulgaria, unlike the current Pirin Macedonia region, which seems to put Rila in Shopluka.
2. Sofia region - what the current map calls Shopluka, but cut down to a more appropriate size.
3. Rhodopes region - like the existing region covers the Rhodope Mountains.
4. The Valley of Roses region - includes the Rose Valley (Bulgaria) and the other Podbalkan valleys; pieces of current regions: Balkan Mountains and Shopluka.
5. Trakia region - approximately equivalent to the existing Upper Thracian Plain region.
6. Stara Planina region - approximately equivalent to the existing Balkan Mountains region, but without the Podbalkan valleys, and it extends to the full length of the actual mountain range and includes adjacent cities like Veliko Tarnovo.
7. Danube region - approximately equivalent to the existing North Bulgaria region, but extends further east and splits Dobrudja with...
8. Northern Black Sea Coast region, centered on Varna, but it goes quite a lot inland, unlike the current Bulgarian Black Sea Coast region.
9. Southern Black Sea Coast region, centered on Burgas, which also includes Strandzha and Sakar. As Varna and Burgas are the two major cities on the coast, most Bulgarians already consider the coast split in a similar manner (Severno and Yuzhno Chernomorie) and plan their vacations accordingly.

Pros: the regions are defined on the level of municipalities (one level below oblasts/provinces), which avoids the clumsy major administrative boundaries and at the same time makes the "what goes where" problem very easy; as it was created by the Ministry of Tourism, some thought was put into making the regions useful for travel planning and transport. Cons: not necessarily as intuitive as the rough geographic intuitions mentioned in C); some regions might be too big and some borders are somewhat arbitrary (e.g. could have gone with another region in Northeastern Bulgaria). Daggerstab (talk) 18:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for this detailed analysis. Plan D seems like an excellent basis for a map. If there is an SVG version of the current or previous Wikivoyage travel-style map, the region borders can easily be adjusted to the new boundaries in Inkscape. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

My question would be: How many cities and other destinations would there be in each region? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

For the D) option specifically?

1. Rila-Pirin - expands the current Pirin Macedonia, so: 1 province center, at least 6 other existing pages for mountain resorts etc, multiple nature reserves, the Rila Monastery (UNESCO site), the Seven Rila Lakes, etc.
2. Sofia - 1 capital of the country, 2 other province centers, 2 other towns that are redlinked now in Bulgarian Shopluk, 1 other existing site page. Potential for adding a separate page for Vitosha Mountain and a mineral water resort.
3. Rhodopes - 2 province centers and a number of smaller towns; the current Rhodope Mountains page is already quite full, because it also includes the parts that are in Greece, and parts of Pirin for some reason.
4. The Valley of Roses - 1 province center and at least 6 smaller towns, most of them famous for their preserved 19th century architecture, other cultural significance, and of course, the cultivation of roses.
5. Trakia (Thrace) - 5 province centers and a number of smaller towns, 1 UNESCO site; mostly a slightly smaller version of the existing Upper Thracian Plain.
6. Stara Planina (the Balkan Mountains) - 5 province capitals, at least 4 other notable smaller towns, at least 1 existing other site page, potential for more (e.g. lots of nature reserves). A possible problem is that some of those provinces extend north to the Danube...
7. Along the Danube - 7 province centers, a number of smaller towns, 3 UNESCO sites. If it grows too big, the Ministry's plan already includes provisions for splitting it into Eastern and Western sub-regions.
8. Northern sea coast - 3 province centers, a number of smaller towns and resorts, 1 UNESCO site.
9. Southern sea cost - 1 province center, a number of smaller towns and resorts - more than half of the content of the existing Bulgarian Black Sea Coast page, and the existing Strandzha page.

The main problems with D) is not that there won't be content for each region, but things like naming (it's easy for the Ministry to call it "X tourist region", but names here are supposed to be less formal and more succinct while at the same time accurate and intuitive - and 8 for example may end up as "Northern Bulgarian Black Sea Coast") and some transport issues (e.g. too many long and thin regions). Daggerstab (talk) 10:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Actually, creating a map wouldn't be that trivial, as it will be necessary to careful parse which municipalities are included in each region, and the map of municipalities in Bulgaria looks like this. :) There's a reference image though, see page 53 of this PDF (but I need to make sure that that proposal has been accepted without modifications.

Of the listed options, the two under C) are the easiest to map, as there are relatively few provinces (see the NUTS image). Daggerstab (talk) 10:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

OK, I'm a bit confused. I'm happy to trust your judgment on this, but if you'd like me to have a real sense of how much content there will be in each region, here's what I'd like: For each region, I'd want at least an approximation of the total number of cities (including towns, villages) that will have their own articles (even if they're currently red-linked) and the number of "Other destinations", based on how they'd appear in the "Cities" and "Other destinations" sections of each region article. I'm not asking for all the names, just a number in each category. Also note the subtle difference between "See" and "Other destinations." For example, a museum could be mentioned in the "See" section of a region article if it's important enough, but it's usually not considered a destination per se (unless it's on the order of the Louvre, maybe), but a big archeological zone like Pompeii that you can walk around all day and still not come close to seeing all of is definitely a destination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Now it's my turn to be confused. Did you see my previous reply? Daggerstab (talk) 07:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yep, and it's hard for me to add all that up. How many of those are cities, and how many are "Other destinations"? I'd like to see those numbers first, then brief descriptions of what you're considering to be an "Other destination." I noticed you created a redirect for a church. Even though it's a UNESCO site, it's still a small church, and that wouldn't get its own article, so why does it merit a redirect? If you think it does, the redirect should be to the "See" section of the article in question, but I wouldn't have created the redirect, and I'd consider it marginal as an "Other destination". Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: Because some time have passed, a reminder about the Boyana Church redirect - the issue was resolved, the reason for the redirect was that I was unaware of the local redirect policies, not that I wanted to write an article about the church.

Here's the two-numbers-per-region list. Under "cities", the list also includes places that are currently listed as red links in the existing regions; province capitals are in bold. For the "other destinations", I mainly include major objects (things that have an existing separate page or there's the potential for one) - therefore the number is also a lower bound, because getting a fuller number would be equivalent to doing all the research for that region article in advance.

1. Rila-Pirin - 11 cities/towns/resorts (Bansko, Belitsa, Blagoevgrad, Borovets, Dupnitsa, Gotse Delchev, Melnik, Petrich, Samokov, Sandanski, Semkovo), at least 2 other destinations (Rila and Pirin National Parks)
2. Sofia - 5 cities/towns (Sofia, Botevgrad, Etropole, Kyustendil, Pernik), at least 2 other destinations (existing Dragoman marsh and potentially Vitosha Mountain as a separate article, as it contains a number of hiking destinations that would clutter Sofia's list. I'm not sure if I should put the Iskar Gorge here or in the Balkan Mountains)
3. Rhodopes - the current article lists 14 cities/towns/villages in both Bulgaria and Greece, as well as 34 other destinations... (though looking at the map, a couple of the latter should be in the Rila-Pirin region)
4. The Valley of Roses - at least 7 cities/towns (Karlovo, Koprivshtitsa, Panagyurishte, Sopot (Bulgaria), Hisarya, Kazanlak, Sliven)
5. Thrace - at least 7 cities/towns/resorts (Elhovo, Dimitrovgrad, Pazardzhik, Plovdiv, Stara Zagora, Haskovo, Yambol)
6. Stara Planina (the Balkan Mountains) - at least 12 cities/towns/villages (Veliko Tarnovo + Arbanassi, Vratsa, Gabrovo, Kotel, Lovech, Montana, Sevlievo, Troyan, Tryavna, Chiprovtsi, Varshets), at least 2 other destinations (Nature Park Bulgarka, Central Balkan National Park)
7. Along the Danube - at least 10 cities/towns (Belogradchik, Vidin, Isperih, Pleven, Razgrad, Ruse, Svishtov, Silistra, Targovishte, Tutrakan)
8. Northern Sea Coast - 7 cities/towns (Balchik, Varna, Veliki Preslav, Dobrich, Kavarna, Shumen) and at least 6 other destinations (all of them seaside resorts, only Kamen Bryag has its own article so far)
9. Southern Sea Coast - 7 cities/towns (Aytos, Burgas, Malko Tarnovo, Nesebar, Pomorie, Primorsko, Sozopol) and at least 11 other destinations (former region of Strandzha repurposed as an article about the nature park, the rest are villages/resorts including Kiten, Varvara, Sarafovo, Sunny Beach, Rezovo) Daggerstab (talk) 18:00, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

One thing, if we make a map of the tourist regions, we need to make sure that a freely licensed map can be found before tracing it as Commons won't accept derivative works of non-free works. This isn't a problem if we use the NUTS regions map though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

c:Category:NUTS maps of Bulgaria seems to show different regions. Before a map is made, which maps are correct? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:13, 3 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: As the D) tourist regions are based on municipal boundaries, that layer of the map can be based on the free File:Bulgaria_municipalities.svg map, with some careful parsing of the list which municipality belongs to which region. There's a map in the government PDF that can be used as a reference, as the information itself is not copyright-protected.

Anyway, first I need to find the time and will to do the breakdown Ikan Kekek asked me for in the discussion above.

As for NUTS 2 maps: that category contains one NUTS 1 map, the current NUTS 2 map (see here), a NUTS 3 map, and two proposed maps which are irrelevant. Anyway, I don't think that an unmodified NUTS 2 map would be suitable for Wikivoyage regions: the NUTS 2 regions were created as a statistical tool, they are not quite convenient for travelers and don't match exactly the way Bulgarians would divide their country into regions with the same names. Daggerstab (talk) 10:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

The number of cities/other destinations looks fine, providing in some cases that red links will support articles per wiaa that you plan to start. Is that your intention? I realize this is a big job, and I can certainly help edit stuff, but Bulgaria is a country I haven't visited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I've uploaded two unlabelled SVG maps of the proposed regions to Commons - the one on the right and another one with white borders and the subregions marked (which is not for Wikivoyage). Both are based on the free SVG municipalities map linked elsewhere in this thread. In the thumbnail, the municipal boundaries still show up, though they didn't in the full-size image. :( Anyway, anyone making a new map, when the time comes, can export a PNG version of this one and use it as a reference or a layer in the image. Daggerstab (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

There are several issues with the current map that are not related to the region discussion above. There's nothing that makes necessary immediate changes, but these issues need to be addressed when (or if...) a new region map is made (I did some work in that direction that I'll post later).

1. The names of Veliko Tarnovo, Kazanlak and Haskovo are spelled in the wrong way (using old or variant ways of transliteration)
2. What's the criteria for inclusion of railway lines? Are those only the international routes? The map is missing some significant pieces, such as half the Sofia-Varna railway in the north, the line that connects Ruse with the south through Veliko Tarnovo, and the Vidin-Mezdra line. There's a detailed railway map of Bulgaria in Wikimedia Commons (note that it uses German spelling for the place names), and a schematic map of the 9 main lines can be found here.
3. The inclusion of Madara and Kamen Bryag. I get why the three national parks (Rila, Pirin, Central Balkan) were included, but while the Madara Horseman is a UNESCO site, it's not that large or spectacular, and Kamen Bryag is mostly a random village on the rocky part of the coast.

Daggerstab (talk) 16:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply