Talk:Horse racing Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

The article currently focuses on the US. Racing in the UK , is what many travellers in the English speaking world (outside the US) may be more familiar with.

I certainly added/updated a few listings for courses in the South of Ireland earlier in the year, most of the United Kingdom courses already being mentioned in relevant "city" (town) articles. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:20, 17 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

ShakespeareFan00, if you have a chance, please add the listings here, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I was previously advised against putting long lists in 'travel topics', and I didn't currently have enough information to select the 8 most prominent ones. The same goes for the UK. Ascot, Cheltenham, and Newmarket probably deserve a mention here, some of the smaller courses like Plumpton maybe don't.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:29, 17 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I think it was the British Empire that spread horse racing to many different parts of the world. When I was growing up in Singapore, horse racing was one of the few legal forms of betting even though gambling in general was illegal, perhaps because it was grandfathered in from colonial times. Even today, while we locals have to pay S$100 to get into the casinos, I can easily bet on the horse races if I wanted to. The dog2 (talk) 22:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

It's not just a case of the US vs UK. Horse racing is huge in Australia and New Zealand. In Australia, the Melbourne Cup in particular stops the entire nation every first Tuesday of November. The most successful horses in history such as Phar Lap, Makaybe Diva and these days Winx are household names even if you don't like horse racing. Greyhound racing is also prominent, despite calls by certain groups to make it illegal (the same can be said for horse racing but to a lesser extent). Gizza ^(roam) 22:27, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

And not to mention, Hong Kong too. The dog2 (talk) 22:37, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Speaking of which, I think we should limit this list to venues that either host major races on the international horse racing calendar, or those that are tourist attractions for other reasons (eg. Hong Kong's Happy Valley Racecourse). We can't possibly list every single racetrack that exists in the world. The dog2 (talk) 01:14, 20 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I know that greyhounds are dogs and not horses, but I would say the culture is rather similar to horse racing, albeit on a smaller scale. Is this worth a short mention as an alternative to horse racing? The dog2 (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I was thinking about greyhound racing. It could even be its own article too once enough information is added. Other popular animal racing sports around the world include camel racing, dogsled racing and pigeon racing, although they have different cultural origins to horse racing and may not fit here. Gizza ^(roam) 22:31, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

w:Greyhound racing in the United KingdomShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:13, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

This content below is becoming quite lengthy, so it's in a box

Re:Horse racing [edit] Latest comment: 5 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion Dear Zanygenuis2, thank you for your thanks too. The next step will be to get the article to guide status, which it is quite close to already. The dog2 and others who have put much more work into it than me probably know better than I do, but I think there still might be a few countries which have famous racetracks that are missing. Maybe a few more museums in "See" and activities in "Do". Apart from that the article looks comprehensive. Gizza (roam) 23:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)Reply @DaGizza:, That is good to hear. I'll definitely work on that in the coming days. Perhaps the Canadian Hall of Fame could go under "see"? Thanks. On another note, apperantly the Pan-American Highway article is already created, however it's seems tangled beyond my capabilities. I feel an itinerary for this highway or maybe the Can-am Highway or Interstate 25 corridor would make good, fill-able topics. What do you think? Thank you From, Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 23:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)Reply I'm not familiar with the entire horse racing world, so I just added the famous ones that I know. Thanks to everyone else who contributed. One thing I was wandering if I should add a listing for the racecourse in Singapore. I think we can safely say that it is the premier horse racing venue in Southeast Asia, but I just don't know if it's notable enough on a global scale to be listed here. Although horse racing in Singapore may be quite well-established, it certainly lacks the prestige that the races in Japan and Hong Kong have. I would like to know others' opinions so I can be sure my judgement is not clouded by my potential bias as a Singaporean. The dog2 (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2019 (UTC)Reply ┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Hi, @Thedog2:, your track is the Singapore Turf Club, correct? They are part of the Malaysian Racing association, and they have major events and even a dress code. I would vote that is notable. I would wait for a consensus though Yes, I am referring to the Singapore Turf Club. I personally do not gamble much, but betting on the horse races is a fairly popular form of gambling in Singapore. It's still not as big as in Hong Kong though. The dog2 (talk) 00:10, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply ┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @The dog2: Oh, yes they don't have as large of events, and they seem to have a lot of unrelated activities there, however they have gigantic horse races though. Ideals,anyone? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 00:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply I don't know much about horse racing, but I'm very impressed by the development of the article! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:41, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply @Ikan Kekek: Thank you, I'm definitely glad you greenlighted the Horse racing article. What do you think about the Singapore track, as well as the Can-am Highway I mentioned above? From, Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 00:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply I think one more perosn we should seek an opinion from is ShakespeareFan00. He seem knowledgeable about this topic. The dog2 (talk) 02:06, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply ┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@The dog2:, I have worked with ShakespeareFan00, who is quite knowledgeable and helpful for sure. A little note to everybody: Should we move this conversation out to a separate talk page since it is getting lengthy? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply Sure, let's move it to Talk:Horse racing. The dog2 (talk) 02:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

There's an inline Wikipedia link to w:Tote betting in the article, in the form of [[w:Tote betting|Parimutuel betting]]. I'm not seeing why we should make such a link an exception to the Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia guidelines, but no-one even proposed to do so. So I've deleted the link for now. If you'd like to argue for a reason to make an exception for this link, great - do it, and maybe you'll convince a consensus. I'll certainly hear anyone out. But as long as inline links to Wikipedia are off-limits except within listings where they can be put in "Wikipedia" tabs, please don't take it upon yourself to add such links without discussion. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

By contrast, I think it was OK for me to add an IRS link in this edit for two reasons: (1) It's a primary link to the makers of the form and instructions and (2) it's really important to foreign bettors' bottom lines. I'm all ears if you disagree that it falls within the guidelines at Wikivoyage:External links and should be removed, though. If you think it runs afoul of those guidelines, I'd still suggest an exception based on the overriding interest of the traveler. The meaning of "parimutuel betting" can be explained in this article; an IRS form and instructions can't be explained here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:52, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek:, One of the toughest questions I tend to face when adding content is whether the content reaches the encyclopedic tipping point, or if I'm doing too much. It appears you're going through this right now. My advice is that you were right to remove the wikipedia link, as so long as the topic was relatable and could be described. I would try to include both wordings: A form of parimutuel betting, also known as toting, wherein the pool of bets taken are shared amongst winners, is also available on some races and at some course. I think your doing great, thanks for reaching out. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 14:18, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I'd linked it, because it had some information specfic to the "The Tote" as operated in the UK. I am not going to object to the removal, but would suggest if someone turns up an official site for that provider, that would be a better link. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:49, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@ShakespeareFan00:, I would almost say this site provides a reasonable definition, even though the page is just a sub-section and not it's own website. There is also the SBO as well. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 16:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I would completely support a primary link to The Tote in the U.K. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:14, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ikan Kekek:, I would too, if I could find a site that specifies for tote betting, although I keep finding sub-pages. Would these count? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 19:52, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Are they primary links? It seems like they're not, in which case, no. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ikan Kekek:. Unfortunately, these are not primary. However, I will continue to look for primary sources, if that's okay. On another note, I saw there was an edit conflict, so I tried to adjust my edits so they would match yours. I guess we know what they say: Jinx! Anyways, sorry for that. Please let me know of anything I missed. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I wouldn't know what you missed. You can follow threads you're interested in. And yes, of course it's great to look for a primary source for that information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:17, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

OK, now I see what happened. You did forget to rehyphenate "16th-century Britain". Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Is there a good image that could be used, that captures both the horses and the crowds? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@ShakespeareFan00: I feel that [1] and[2] are at the correct ratio, but doesn't show much. I would reccomend looking up "Horse racing" at commons. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 19:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@ShakespeareFan00:, So recently a banner was added by User:Selfiecity, and I think it looks great. What do you think? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 03:03, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I like it. The dog2 (talk) 03:15, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Me too. Good banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:59, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I think by now, we have a good listing of horse racing venues around the world. While I don't want to discourage people from adding important venues that I have missed out on, I think it's time for us to agree on some criteria for the venue to be listed so list does not get too long. There are thousands of racecourses in the world, and listing every single one of them here is not going to be practical. So I propose that a racecourse should only get a listing if it hosts an internationally high profile race, or if it is a major tourist attraction. What do you think? The dog2 (talk) 03:09, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Zanygenius2 (WV-en): Speaking of which, I'd like to understand your rationale for adding the racecourse in Belize. When I did a Google search, it seems like a minor racecourse that doesn't host any big races, and it doesn't seem to be a major tourist attraction in the same way Happy Valley in Hong Kong is. Perhaps ShakespeareFan00 can also weigh in and provide a second opinion on this. The dog2 (talk) 06:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@The dog2:, Thank you for pointing that out. I think for the most part I was getting it mixed up with the People's track in Belize City, which holds the Belizean Triple-crown race. However the track I mentioned did seem to be important in the past, but not recently. Perhaps we could substitute that for the People's track. Also, I feel that a valid track would have a notable international event, like in Hong Kong or Kentucky, where it is globally recognized. I saw over on the manual of style that lists should be about 7-9 entries long, then split. I think it helps that we did split our destinations into continents and countries, although there should definitely be a bar in which to define by. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I agree with your proposal, Dog. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:59, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Template:Oudent My view is that only venues that host the (inter)nationally important races should be in this article, other should be listed by reference to the various racing association websites, as has been done under the France, UK and Ireland sections. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:33, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

The main caveat is, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand do not have national racing associations, and each racecourse is independently managed. While I most certainly am not in favour of listing every single racecourse in those countries, what do you suggest as an alternative? The dog2 (talk) 14:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ikan Kekek:, That surprised me also that they didn't have any associations. I would reccomend seeing which has internationally recognized or important races, a d try to separate this from the rest of the courses. Please see my response to The dog2 above. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Belize doesn't seem to have any internationally important races, but I'm open to having something outside the major racing countries listed. Let's see what everyone else says.

@ShakespeareFan00: I am happy to go with your proposal, but I think that we should at least make an exception for Happy Valley in Hong Kong because it is such a major tourist attraction. Even people who are not horse racing enthusiasts visit it just to experience the local gambling culture, and you will find it listed in virtually every tourist brochure about Hong Kong. The dog2 (talk) 15:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Agreed on that. Happy Valley was prominently mentioned in a travel show item about Hong Kong I saw on the BBC a while back. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@ShakespeareFan00, Ikan Kekek: What are your views on the track in Belize City then? The dog2 (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@The dog2: The original one could be tossed. I ended up changing it to the People's stadium one, which is more significant according to the websites I looked at. Perhaps we could keep that one, but not the first one I had in there? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 16:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

It may be the the most important one in Belize, but it does not hold any internationally important races. But that said, I also understand that we currently do not have any other listings in the region. That's why I was seeking consensus on whether or not we should include this venue. It would not fit the criteria I am proposing for inclusion, but we could always make an exception if there is a good reason. The dog2 (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I don't know enough to have a view about that specific listing; I'm just taking the point that if we listed every possible racecourse, the article would be several furlongs long itself. That said, those listings should be somewhere. I'm thinking that perhaps in the cases of countries without national racing associations, if there would be too many listings, we could branch off subtopics like Horse racing in the United States to separate articles, while leaving summaries of the most important listings here. In the case of a small country like Belize, though, it might be sufficient to list racecourses locally. I won't be the one to make that decision, though - I'll just respect whatever you all decide in such cases. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:09, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ikan Kekek, The dog2:, Same here. It would be a good idea to split up the larger countries into their own articles, although I think we'be been doing good so far with the article, so I would keep using the current mehodization. Do we have a wiki-voyager who happens to be knowledgable regarding horse racing, but is also well-versed in travel topic guidelines? However I will support whatever the decision is. :) Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 19:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

DaGizza seems to know quite a fair bit about horse racing as as well. The dog2 (talk) 20:28, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@The dog2:. Ah, the irony. This whole conversation started when DaGizza replied to a question of mine. I think he has very good background on horse racing. Thank you. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 22:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

We don't seem to be getting any replies, but I'm actually leaning towards not including the People's Stadium in Belize since there are so many more prominent racing venues that exist in the world. To my knowledge, Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago and Puerto Rico all have more prominent horse racing scenes, as do Argentina and Uruguay in South America. And not to mention, there's also well-established horse racing in South Africa, Mauritius, India, Pakistan, Malaysia, the Philippines and South Korea. We can't possibly list every single on of those tracks, and they don't hold any internationally important races, but they most certainly have more established horse racing scenes than Belize.

Similarly, I'm not sure about keeping Sam Houston Park in the US, since the US list is already quite long, and it doesn't seem to host any top level races. Of course, if people know what the premier race for other horse breeds is, we can list a racecourse that hosts those specific races, but because they are so much less prominent than Thoroughbred racing, naturally we will have fewer of those racecourses listed. The dog2 (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Unfortunately, I only have a reasonable knowledge of horse racing in a few countries, mainly Australia. I know much less about horse racing around the world. The only other region which I'm aware is passionate about horse racing is the GCC countries (the oil rich, stable Gulf countries in the Middle East). At the moment, there is only one entry for the UAE but horse sports like racing and equestrianism are popular in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, etc. I'm not sufficiently familiar with horse racing in Belize to have an opinion on the People's Track sorry. Gizza ^(roam) 03:02, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@DaGizza:In that case, do you mind looking at the entries for Australia and New Zealand then? Have I covered all the important ones, or are there important ones that I missed? The dog2 (talk) 04:37, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@DaGizza: Tha k you for your help anyways. How would you feel then about Dubai's Meydan course? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Also, User:The dog2, you're doing a great job expanding the article, and contributing to the discussion. Thanks also goes to the rest of you. Kudos! Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Dubai's Meydan should stay because of the Dubai World Cup. It is the richest race in the world, and as such, attracts the world's best horses and jockeys. While it doesn't have the tradition, most enthusiasts rank it alongside the Japan Cup, Kentucky Derby and Melbourne Cup in terms of the quality of the field. As for the rest of the Gulf, to my knowledge, there are races of international importance in Thoroughbred racing, though Qatar and Saudi Arabia are both trying to get in on the game. My understanding is that they do host some of the premier races in purebred Arabian horse racing though, so if anyone is knowledgeable, please feel free to add. The dog2 (talk) 14:53, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I made it lowercase and now it's capitalized again. I didn't think it was a proper name; please advise. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

For some reason, it is capitalised on Wikipedia and in the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. The dog2 (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: It appears there is to rules to this according to the Saratoga racecourse website when referring to the breed, it is capitalized, but otherwise, it is lowercase. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 23:38, 23 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Weird. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 23 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Having grown up in Kentucky, the Saratoga blog post jives with what I learned. "Thoroughbred" (capitalized) in this usage is the proper name of a breed of horse, so anything related to it, such as "Thoroughbred horse racing", should also be capitalized. (If you use "thoroughbred" as a synonym for "purebred", then it's uncapitalized, so you could write about "thoroughbred dog racing" (uncapitalized). But in the case of horse racing, "Thoroughbred" is always referring to the proper noun of the breed, not a plain adjective that simply describes the horses, so it should always be capitalized.)

If it makes you feel better about it, it's like the difference between writing about "the U.S. south" (meaning the direction) and "the U.S. South" (meaning the region, which incidentally is geographically in the southeast). --Bigpeteb (talk) 00:39, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Is there a general rule to capitalize the names of breeds? Poodle, dachshund, tabby, American shorthair, potbellied pig, and for that matter, basmati rice - should those all be capitalized? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:57, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

I think this is not a relevant phrasing. "Go next" is positional - literally a place you can go to next, not a related article to read. I think the heading for a section on related articles would be "See also". Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:54, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek:, Perhaps on travel topics, "See also", or "Do next" could be appropiate; I'm facing this question on an article I'm creating, and I feel like Go next is for use in Cities, Counties, Regions of states, States, or Countries, but not for travel topics (Horse racing) or some itenaries (like what I'm working on". I'll go check some other travel topics and the help section to see what else I can find for you. For now, perhaps "Try these too" could work ;). Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: Some examples I found is that Traveling with children uses "See also" American football uses "Outside of the United States", as a connection to other forms, while many articles such as Ferry routes to Great Britain opts out completley. I would go for "See also", personally. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

Slushed on 22 April 2021, if the article will be featured on the Main page someday, here's a banner and comments from Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Banners. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Someone's been a busy beaver! While it would be nice to have some more choices on some of these (I'm not saying they're needed), they're all of a high enough standard to be featured on the main page. I particularly like Oaxaca, the pancakes, and this one, with the horses.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

• This banner is completely fine. I'd welcome others but would be perfectly satisfied with running (hah!) this, and thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 20 March 2021 (UTC)Reply