Talk:Moscow Voyage Tips and guide

This article was the Collaboration of the week between 05 September 2006 and 11 September 2006.

Contents

I would recommend one for Central Moscow, using either the Garden Ring, or the Boulevard Ring' as its boundry. The rest of the city could be divided into Northern, Eastern, Western, and Southern sections. Everything outside the Outer Moscow Ring Road could be described in the Get Out section.User:(WT-en) Johnsemlak

Moscow is definitely a huge city, so if you're willing to put in the effort to make the districts presentable, then go ahead. But the current Moscow article is still quite limited and lot more info, esp. nuts'n'bolts stuff like restaurants and hotels, is needed. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:03, 4 Aug 2005 (EDT)

I have just linked to a separate article about Kolomenskoye. I think there is now a need to make districts for Moscow. The initial suggestion was:

• Central Moscow
• Northern Moscow
• Eastern Moscow
• Western Moscow
• Southern Moscow
  • Where Kolomenskoye might fit as a district called Moscow/Kolomenskoye.
• Outer Moscow or perhaps Greater Moscow.

Any thoughts?-- (WT-en) Huttite 21:27, 25 Dec 2005 (EST)

In my belief, we have too little content right now for districtifying; I would refer here to "when [not] to districtify" recommendations we have recently outlined. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 02:46, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

For the upcoming CoTW for Moscow here is the Wikipedia'sMoscow district article. It also has a nice map of Moscow's districts, which is dual licensed. - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 14:10, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

This doesn't look like a good map for defining district borders, however: it's quite unclear which street each border line goes through. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:00, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Actually, most of the linked rayony do define street borders. But would these administrative divisions make for good travel regions of Moscow? Should the outer okruga be combined in some way? And I presume that the 1 okrug should also be divided into several Central Moscow districts, but I wouldn't know how to go about it. I'm not suggesting that we divide up the city yet, since there are so few listings in the article, but it would be nice to come up with a preparatory hierarchy. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 09:47, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

I can only see borders for rayons in Central okrug, and most of rayon (and okrug) articles not written yet. Am I missing something? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:48, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps each rayon of the central okrug should get its own article? Moscow is such an enormous city—I think it would be fine to have some 20 districts, honestly. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 09:49, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

I think we can start with splitting into okruga, and many months (or even years) after that we'll have enough content for further splitting Central okrug into subdistricts. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:48, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Actually on splitting Moscow to districts I'd recommend against going along administrative okrugs, since they are not going right along splitting the city for tourict interests. I'd recommend how I see splitting Moscow, though it's more for discussion.

I think, that the main division would be Central Moscow and Outer Moscow, and it's unclear, if further division is necessary. The Center has more sights and attractions, and as such, it is pretty good defined by Third Transport Ring (TTK). Further division, if there will be enough material, may go along radial ways, something like this: Kremlin and Kitai-Gorod; Ostogenka and Lugniki; Arbat and Kutuzovskii prospect; Tverskaya street; North of Center (Tsvetnoi boulevard, Dostoevskii Theater, Olimpiiskii); Chistye prudy and Taganka; Three Railway Station square, Kurskii Railway Station and Baumanskii district; Zamoskvorechje and Paveletskii Railway Station; Gorky park and Leninskii prospekt.

Outer Moscow (outside TTK) is almost completely a sleeper district, there are not so much sights, so probably no division would be a good idea. If ever a division idea comes up though, I'd recommend using natural transport bariers and not administrative. As such, following subdivisions may come later: North-East and North of Moscow (from Losiniy Ostrov (good as a part itself) to roughly following line: Leningrad railway - Dubki park - some 8th of March streets); North-West - to Moskva-River; West - South-West - South - to Paveletskii railway (large interconnected latest sleeper region with fewer sights); South-East - to Moskva-River (with Tsaritsyno and Kolomenskoye); East - the rest.95.27.174.52 11:54, 12 February 2011 (EST)

All interesting suggestions. I don't think there is any big rush to create a lot of divisions for the article, since content remains a little light, but who knows—districting might actually attract more contributions (I actually find it a little hard to contribute to such a broad article as (Central Moscow"). In any ultimate district scheme, I think it would be appropriate for multiple central district divisions as well as outer district divisions. Our contributors on Wikivoyage/ru have worked out a basic districts scheme (see discussion), which breaks down the central district into 12, and breaks down the outer regions in a manner rather similar to what you are suggesting, leaving 8 total. There is a surprising amount to see even in the outer districts, and with enough knowledgeable contributors, we could actually fill out such articles into nice guides (and this would leave our printed-guide competition in the dust)—take a look at what User:Digr did with the Southwest section of the city.

I don't think the Russian version has really nailed down those central district boundaries, but I'd love to make a map if we could agree upon them. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:58, 15 February 2011 (EST)

Hi! I need to help about subdistrict names and areas! What is your suggestions? My idee the rings could be clear boundaries also with the directions (N, W, E, S). The Moscow Outskirts splittig for an inner outskirt ( a mid zone between Bulvar and the 3rd Circle on name so 'Between Rings' or 'Mid Belt' ) with directions look like a good idee. Moscow Outskirts North.... or maybe with subdirections Moscow Outskirts North-East, ... & Moscow Between Rings North or Moscow Mid Belt North... full 8-10 Sub-distict, plus Central Moscow with four Sub-districts could be enough?! - - - Globetrotter19 (talk) 12:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

You can read a very instructive discussion here. There is no simple way of defining district borders in Moscow, and it is pretty clearly that you will not get any useful feedback on English Wikivoyage, where nobody even cared about new district articles created in a unilateral manner.

Our current understanding is that Central Moscow spans the whole area inside the "Third Ring". Ideally, we would like to split this area into 10-12 smaller districts, but we can't do it without seeing at least major attractions on a single map. So what we need is a very-very long list of attractions with coordinates, all in the same article, and preferably with Russian names. I was basically waiting for the outcome of your impressive work on copying churches and other things from Wikipedia, in order to transfer these lists into the Russian site and make a good use of them there. But we really need Russian names, because I can't understand half of these English names, even if they are correct from language point of view.

Now, regarding the districts outside the Third Ring, this topic is completely moot, because it involves outer districts (including the recently formed "New Moscow") and entangles with the regional sub-division of Moscow Oblast, which is presently anything but reasonable. So we better don't touch it. Central Moscow itself is a work for months... --Alexander (talk) 13:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

And a general comment for anyone reading this discussion. Moscow has a very regular circular layout, but it does not mean that you can make districts by slicing the whole city into rings. The central part is probably OK as a circle, but districts like "between the Garden Ring and the Third Ring" make absolutely no sense, because they span for kilometers and entail places, which are very far from each other. Administrative districts make no sense either. Even we, locals, do not always know where their boundaries are. --Alexander (talk) 13:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

If you see all of 'my' place has Russian name, sometimes more if I found any different, also finds some street name in Russian.

About "between the Garden Ring and the Third Ring" thing, called 'Belt' inside the Central Moscow, can be splitting four parts (N, W, E, S),

Moscow Central-East, inside the Garden Ring

Moscow Central-North, inside the Garden Ring

Moscow Central-South, inside the Garden Ring

Moscow Central-West, inside the Garden Ring

the 'Outsiders' can be:

Moscow Belt-North, (Leningradskiy prospekt to Krasnoprudnaya ulitsa)

Moscow Belt-East, (Krasnoprudnaya ulitsa to Volgogradskiy prospekt)

Moscow Belt-South, (Volgogradskiy prospekt to Moskva river)

Moscow Belt-West, (Moskva river to Leningradskiy prospekt)

This way anybody could easy find where is the right subdistrict for each place & then no "span for kilometers and entail places, which are very far from each other". Even if you don't cut the areas at the Garden Ring, that means doubled the distance. Or Not? --Globetrotter19 (talk) 19:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Where is the border between North and West, for example? Patriarshie Ponds, it is north or west? Cathedral of Christ the Savior, is it west or south? And where is Moscow Kremlin? Circle can be split into rings only. You can't break a circle into rectangular shapes, so north-west-south-east division can't be applied to Moscow in any reasonable manner.

However, we have lots of historical districts with rather well-defined borders. Замоскворечье, Хамовники, Арбат, Пресня... this is something to consider, but we have to think which of them are big and important enough to make their own article on Wikivoyage. As I said, it is not a trivial problem, so I would like to put everything onto the same map first.

Finally, if you think that the Garden Ring is a good boundary, you are mistaken. Certain districts, such as Taganka (Таганка), clearly sit on both sides of the Garden Ring. --Alexander (talk) 19:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'd reiterate my suggestion to divide center from sleeper districts by TTK. It's a good boundary, even if it doesn't perfectly divide mostly historic districts from sleeper, it does it much more perfectly then Garden Ring. Also, quaters of center within TTK does not have big distances actually. As for naming, first: Moscow Center - South is Zamoskvorechje, quite obviously. Other suggestions, tentative: Moscow Center - West - Arbat and Ostogenka. Moscow Center - North - Tverskaya and Tsvetnoy boulevard. Moscow Center - East - Chistye Prudy and Lefortovo. SakuraKojima (talk) 09:38, 13 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi Sakura! I remember about your suggestions, and I think we all agreed to use TTK as the boundary. But sub-districts inside this huge Central Moscow are not as simple. Places like Presnya and Khamovniki are also highly relevant and should be included. The part beyond Zamoskvorechye (Donskoy Monastery, for example) is relevant as well, but it is no longer Zamoskvorechye. As you speak Russian, would you please keep an eye on the Russian article? I think that within a month we will make an effort on importing the listings collected by Globetrotter19, and proceed to sub-districts of Central Moscow afterwards. --Alexander (talk) 10:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I removed the following from the article as I don't believe it complies with Project:External links. *Moscow hotel guide (WT-en) OldPine 06:55, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Can anyone add that to the list? It would be wise to know about it. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 74.102.16.174 (talk • contribs)

What do you mean specifically? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 07:43, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

I mean that racism seems to be thriving in Moscow. It's good to put up an advice about it, or a warning, or something.

My Moscow knowledge is getting a bit dated (4 years), but my impression has usually been that racism is significantly less of a problem in Moscow relative to the rest of Russia. Perhaps we could include a note in the "stay safe" section regarding what non-white travelers and travelers who look like they are from the Caucasus should know, emphasizing the differences between Moscow and the rest of Russia? I'm not knowledgeable enough myself to do this well, but perhaps you have a better handle on it. Please feel free to plunge forward and edit the section yourself! --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald ^Talk 13:49, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

I have never been to any city in Russia, let alone Moscow.  :) This is why I wrote it as a suggestion, not as a contribution, since I will admit that I do not have concrete knowledge of the city. I was hoping that someone who has already been there could give some contribution to it. And just so future readers would now, this is not a Russophobic rant. I am actually quite the Russophile and I enjoy learning Russian. I would love to visit the city one day, but I hope someone who has been there could give an insight into the issue so that those who travel there (to whom this issue is a concern) can take precautionary measures. Thanks again!74.102.16.174 11:01, 17 June 2007 (EDT)

Hi all. Has anyone been to Moscow recently and felt that racism was still rampant? Especially amongst non white people? Would like to know whether the following paragraph should stay or be deleted:

Non-white people should be especially vigilant since violent attacks have occurred, and most minorities are likely to be stopped for document checks by the police.--(WT-en) MarinaK 14:27, 13 June 2008 (EDT)MarinaK.

Still true as far as I know. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:57, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi There! Just a small contribution to the talk: I am a 24 yr old spaniard/scotsman currently studying and working in Moscow. Although I am white, I look distinctly non-russian and could easily pass for someone from the Caucasus. I have been here for 7 months now and have to say I have seen not a trace of the agressive racism which many of us had been led to believe was rampant in Russia. On the contrary: both young and old have proven extremely friendly and even excited to chat to foreigners. What I have noticed, however, is a somewhat different attitude to the question of race/ethnicity than in the UK; for instance: A non-white family moves to Russia. Two generations later, their grandchildren will still be deemed "non-russian" just because of their appearence. People are automatically classified by the way they look, although it doesn't mean they are marginalised. Just look at the map of Russia. The vast majority of those millions do not conform to the stereotypical image of a white russian, so consequently they are "ne-russkiye"...they just happen to have a Russian passport. A little bit puzzling, you are right. One has to mention that mildly racist comments are quite acceptable in polite society here, some of which could be real 'gasp-provokers' in the UK. However, I'd like to reassert that it is simply a question of different values and attitudes. Russians do not live in the same multicoloured society that we celebrate in the UK or the US. Call it racist if you please. I don't. Hope I've helped! Regards, Finn McLafferty, Moscow. (11/3/09)

I am russian, living in Moscow for 30 years. Groups of violent skinheads, attacking non-white men is a typical scary thing foreigners usually talk about, but actually it is very uncommon. And it is even much less uncommon since mid 2000s. There is a general ongoing social conflict between native Moscow population and nations from Caucasus, especially Dagestan and Chechnya - they are muslims, and there is 200 year history of war with them, including two recent chechen wars. But if you don't look like chechen - it is not that dangerous to walk around Moscow. --77.37.208.193 19:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is a pretty cool map of Moscow that someone added to the page. Unfortunately, it definitely runs afoul of our Project:External links policy, but I thought I would dump it here as it may be useful to people working on this article. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:39, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Following the removal of this piece:

MI PIACE is a great salad and pizza restaurant in Moscow. Best pizza in Moscow.

This restaurant chain has really a solid reputation for its cuisine among locals, even despite its prices. I would vote that we keep it in some form; or at least discuss why we shouldn't. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 02:42, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

My feeling is that we are moving towards taking a slightly harder line with very incomplete listings. This one was shouting and had no address, so it wasn't very useful for travelers. But if you know the address, please do add it back in. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:19, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Yes, I reverted it for the reasons Peter described - also because it was added to Splurge, which seemed out of place for a pizza and salad restaurant. If you can make the listing more useful for travelers, then please add it to the article. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 07:48, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

I plunged forward with all I know; will update it one day if I visit the place myself. Can't promise it's the best place in something, so I don't mention it. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:41, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, Denis! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:38, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

I edited the article, commenting out some of the bullshit. Might come back and add places to eat if anyone's interested. This article doesn't seem to get a lot of attention. Hello! Anyone there?--(WT-en) Apoivre 00:03, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Your edit looks good -- more information is always welcome! (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:29, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Nice to see a familiar handle from FT. Is this to be a one-man mission to make a good guide to Moscow or may I hope someone will come along and help me with it?--(WT-en) Apoivre 01:07, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

You can hope, but I'm afraid I won't be joining you, as I haven't even been to Moscow. But the article's already been worked on by several dozen people, so it's just a matter of time until somebody else shows up. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:02, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

I'd strongly recommend to edit the passage concerning bribing the police (Safety section) - it's a crime, naturally, to bribe a police officer. Actually, if you are not involved in an illegal activity, there's a little chance to get arrested. Not less than in N.Y., for example. Just try to dial you embassy hotline (if any) or you russian-speaking friend or colleague. If you've got entry visa, there's nothing to worry about. Just stay calm: panic (inspired by biases, huh) is very suspicious. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 89.178.98.242 (talk • contribs)

Apoivre, you are right that the mansion is fake--but why you decided to remove the piece on food quality there? If you consider a cafe just a great place to find a genuine Russian food, not a Tsatist-times cusine, it is really good, and it is really very much of the same quality you could find at your Russian friend's babushka (grandma) in the country :-) --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 07:49, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

In the meanwhile I tried to fit both opinions in a single review, see Moscow#Pushkin. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 13:06, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

We frequently see individual opinions and observations added by wikivoyageers that in most cases are just removed by admins without any trace left in the article. However, I believe that such opinions should be saved for later discussion and better wording of controversial topics.

Wait for some examples to get an idea of what I mean by this. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:00, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see much, if any, usable information in either of those comments. Is the Muscovite shwarma any more dangerous than the pelmeny? If you find it difficult to use the subway if you don't speak Russian, will a taxi or bus be any easier? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:15, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

One shall be advised against risking a shawarma (sold on every second corner), though. Anyway, in Russia it has little in common with the Mediterranian namesake.

http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Moscow&curid=4172&diff=836843&oldid=834393&rcid=795749

---

I have used almost ever major city in the world's metro/subways and Moscow is by far the worst I have ever encountered. The cars work and the stations are not crubbling but if you do not have a Russian speaker stay far away from Moscow's metro/subways. Maps are a joke and do not help since they are wrong, the numbers and colors are wrong, unless you read the language you will never find your way, the ticket and subway workers are rude and none speak English, most of the other riders are rude and do not want to be bothered - they will not even try to help you. You have been warned, stay far away from Moscow's subways.

http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Moscow&diff=prev&oldid=824535

---

I attempted to rewrite a paragraph on banyas, but not sure my edition reflects all the considerations I have on the original version [1]:

• in Moscow, banya is most popular among people at the age of 40 and up; younger people (especially office workers) are less frequent among banya lovers
• anyway, not many Moscovites frequent banyas, not to say visit them every week
• Moscow has city banyas (and maybe even have some of the best city banyas in Russia), but it's private, rural banyas in a countryside that is really must-try when you visit Russia--and they can never be found in Moscow or even its nearest suburbs

Another thing to add is that younger people give more favour to saunas. but I'm not sure if it makes sense to recommend to travelers, as they have nothing special if you compare to Finland and Sweden.

Any ideas on what of the above can be incorporated to the article, and how, would be appreciated. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:44, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Remember that there is some content for Moscow/South hidden at the Kolomenskoye redirect page. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 15:29, 16 December 2009 (EST)

This section looks like it put here by a troll. Should it be removed? --80.47.233.95 12:43, 11 April 2010 (EDT)

Thanks, I've pulled that section. If any of the information in there was valid/relevant it can be re-worked into the main article, rather than called out into its own top-level section. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:10, 11 April 2010 (EDT)

The picture of the train carriages at a station appear to be Chinese, not Russian.Travelpleb (talk) 20:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 06:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I would prefer your banner. --Alexander (talk) 08:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Me too. The current banner is perfectly good, but this one is beautiful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I get the idea that the subdivision of Moscow has been changed recently so that there are three main district articles, one of which has 4 subdistricts under it. Given the amount of material we have, I believe that intermediary Central Moscow article is unnecessary and should be scrapped - it would be easier and more clear to have six districts directly linked under the main Moscow page. Cases like New York City, where we have way too much info to organize it into a single hierarchy level, are exceptions. In general we try to avoid having multiple levels of subdivision within a city when possible, and in the case of Moscow, it appears easily possible. Texugo (talk) 14:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Well, as I explained above, this whole district scheme does not make much sense, so it does not really matter how you organize it precisely. For example, Moscow Kremlin is not something that you can put into Central-North, Central-West, Central-East, or Central-South articles. But still it is in Central Moscow... --Alexander (talk) 15:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I had missed that conversation, since it is up in the midst of some very old conversations. It is unclear whether you are disagreeing with me, but in any case, if there are gaps in the coverage, the solution is not to have this intermediate-level article to catch stuff that falls in the cracks between other lower-level articles. What is needed is to redraw the districts completely so there are no gaps, and link all those districts directly from the main Moscow page. Texugo (talk) 16:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

OK, I will also write it here, just for the record. A district scheme for Moscow is indeed needed. But the development of this scheme is by no means a simple task, and it hardly makes sense to draw boundaries without knowing what is inside. The best interim solution is to put everything back into the Central Moscow article, or keep things as they are, because the content is taken from Wikipedia and not very well suited for a travel guide anyway. So it does not really matter how many articles you have, whether they overlap, etc.

Unless several people here want to spend serious effort on writing about Moscow, you have to wait until a good solution appears in Russian Wikivoyage. It is not something that one can do in one hour or even in one evening. The problem of Moscow districts is on my list, and I will go back to it the moment we have enough editors who are familiar with the city. --Alexander (talk) 16:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Understood. In that case, I do think that it's better to revert everything back to how it was before the changes over the weekend, putting everything back in the Central Moscow article, until such time as a thorough no-gaps-no-overlaps district breakdown is defined and agreed upon. Texugo (talk) 16:42, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that's my preferred option as well. I hope Globetrotter19 does not mind that some of his edits will be reverted, but it is the normal risk that you take when you implement districts without prior discussion. --Alexander (talk) 16:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi! I made subdistrict, because Alexander on my Talk page wrote me on 29 January 2014, With >100 randomly listed attractions, the articles become useless. I thought, he wish more subdistricts (articles),- with clear bounderies such rings and prospects,- for easier using. Sorry if I made it, wrong. - -Globetrotter19 (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

No problem. Thanks for trying to help, but I think we need to step back and discuss thoroughly before deciding on a division scheme, so let's put everything back the way it was before, for now, and then talk about the best way to divide the city with no gaps or overlaps and no unnecessary intermediate hierarchical level. Texugo (talk) 17:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I did write you. Sorry if I was not clear, but I meant the following: We have to compile the list of attractions before deciding on the districts. --Alexander (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I'm finished for a time & let you peace, for working. Start to make districts! Have a good work! --Globetrotter19 (talk) 14:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

What is when admin(s) say, stop your work on this site, then 2 months happened nothing. Thereafter let a message "this project makes me very unhappy and stops me from contributing actively."? - - - Globetrotter19 (talk) 11:48, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are talking about. Could you explain a little more? Texugo (talk) 11:53, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think they stopped contributing waiting for Moscow subdivision. That still hasn't happened. Stalled? --Inas (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yep. You are right Inas! - - - Globetrotter19 (talk) 15:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Constructive comments are always welcome! Active participation is welcome too. But if you propose a completely weird way of splitting Moscow into North, East, West and South without even taking care of Kremlin, which is exactly in the middle, then please, come up with a better suggestion or wait until other people do it, although this may take long-long time. If you check the Russian article, you will see that we have done a lot of work on the article about Kremlin and Kitay-Gorod, and we basically did it from scratch because your long lists of everything turned out to contain many mistakes, let alone very poor descriptions that are hardly suitable for a travel guide. We also discussed how to describe details without losing generality and feasibility for a first-time visitor, which you have lost the moment you added 100+ churches. Altogether, we are trying to make a good guide to Moscow. This really takes time. --Alexander (talk) 18:15, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for answering. And O.K. You have right Alex, I completly forget the Russian article.

P.S. I wish good work for all contributors and I'm excited waiting how splitting Moscow districts. - - Globetrotter19 (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

The Moscow pages appear to be in a stalled half reorganisation state. Not very useful to travellers at the moment. I see from discussions above there is some disagreement of how to split the city divisions. There is also reference to a solution on the Russian site but I unfortunately cannot read that. There is probably no perfect solution, but any clear organisation is better than non. Anyone willing to be bold and state what they should be? --Traveler100 (talk) 09:09, 26 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

The first thing readers need is good up-to-date content, and there is none at the moment. Most of the content in the Moscow article(s) should be simply deleted because it is either wrong or unusable. Regarding the districts, there is a layout and the relevant map in the Russian article, although not all district articles have been written to date. You are welcome to introduce same districts here. --Alexander (talk) 16:18, 26 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

On first impression that does look like a reasonable and clear split of districts. Any chance of providing English translations for these? --Traveler100 (talk) 18:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

I am not aware of common English names of these districts, so you can make literal translations or check which names are used in the English literature. --Alexander (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

Shouldn't the subdistricts of Moscow be subdistricts of this page? So Central Moscow becomes Moscow/Central, Moscow Central-North to Moscow/Central-North, so on and so forth. James A ▪ talk 08:13, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

Done James A ▪ talk 11:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

These perversions are not “districts”. There are some chunks of territory chosen by editors arbitrarily, and have nothing to do with (incidentally named similarly) okrugs of Moscow or names of their sub-districts. By the way, after this change a large belt of the city—hundreds km²—belongs to nowhere in your delimitation. Really, has anybody here some sense what the Moscow's 3rd Ring refers to? Also, the editor Globetrotter19 seemingly isn’t accustomed to maps, save for poor understanding of Russian toponymy and sources. Николо-Угрешский монастырь (55°37′N 37°50′E) isn’t anywhere close to either Zelenograd or New Moscow. It pertains to Moscow Oblast and is located adjacently to South-Eastern Administrative Okrug of Moscow, that isn’t associated in any way with either Zelenograd or New Moscow. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:03, 29 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hello Incnis Mrsi, Alexander, Globetrotter19, Texugo and everyone else. I have created a dynamic district map for Moscow based on the official "Okrugs" of the city - similar to the Russian Wikivoyage page. Please have a look below. I am not sure whether we really need so many articles though. Maybe it makes sense to combine the 8 suburb articles into 4:

• North-West and North into North-West
• North-East and East into North-East
• South-East and South into South-East
• South-West and West into South-West

Let's finally bring this article forward instead of fingerpointing, shall we?--Renek78 (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

This issue has been discussed at length in Russian Wikivoyage, and boundaries of individual districts have been established. Administrative boundaries, which you used, do not make much sense here, especially those that randomly stretch beyond the Moscow Ring Road.

Two crucial points are as follows: i) Central Moscow covers a relatively large area, but it is further split into 10 sub-districts. ii) Outer districts also follow the two-level scheme in the sense that there are well-defined historical areas like Kolomenskoe, Sokolniki, and Ostankino, which merit individual articles. The articles for bigger outer districts (North, North-West, etc.) are merely a collection of stuff that did not fit anywhere else. And yes, there are some attractions in each of these 8 outer districts, although they are not of immediate relevance to short-time visitors. --Alexander (talk) 07:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Alexander, thanks for your feedback. I completely missed, that the central district was subdivided even further in the Russian Wikivoyage. I can set it up in a similar fashion. I am just afraid, that we'll end up with 19 Wikivoyage articles for Moscow - 8 suburb & 1 central overview & 10 central - of whom 12 are stubs or filled with information, which is only relevant to monks or preachers (i.e. listing of each and every church and monastery in the city, like we have it now).--Renek78 (talk) 13:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Renek78, we discussed this district scheme at length. We are confident that there is enough content for 19 articles (in fact, about 30, because you have to count historical areas outside of Central Moscow, as well as Moscow underground that merits its own article) if one intends to describe Moscow comprehensively. Since several years we put our efforts into filling the articles with relevant information. You can check here how an article about a tiny district in the city center should look like.

The chaotic information about churches, which you see here in English Wikivoyage, is, on the other hand, completely irrelevant. Moscow was one of the articles badly damaged by Globe-trotter19. In my opinion, all contributions by this user should be mass deleted because they do nothing but clutter the pages and prevent any development. If you make bold cleaning, the content will fit into one article (as it was before 2013), and no districts will be needed at this point.

I see two possibilities, either clean up all irrelevant, unsystematic and badly written stuff and remove the districts, or make a proper distrification following Russian Wikivoyage, but the articles will mostly remain stubs (unless you plan to invest significant effort into writing them). --Alexander (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

First off, Moscow is such a big city that I do think some sort of district division could be useful for travelers. We probably don't need as many as 19 of them, as mentioned above, a couple of districts for the central parts of the city and one for each cardinal direction is probably closer to optimum. I also agree that our current district articles should be cut down quite a bit, because as of now travelers are drowned in listings. On the other hand, current district articles suffer from a lack of listings in all the sections below Do (this seems to be a problem in Russian WV too, especially for districts further out). --ϒpsilon (talk) 16:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

I have no knowledge of Moscow and no opinion about whether or how to district Moscow on en.voy, but I'd just like to point out that mere size is not per se a reason to district: Consider the case of Karachi, a much more populous city than Moscow which is deliberately undistricted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:51, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Absolutely. One comprehensive article is much better than meaningless district articles. --Alexander (talk) 19:05, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

There is one advantage of having similar districts on the English and Russian article in my opinion: All it needs are a few Russian friends with good English knowledge, who "only" have to translate the Russian articles ;). Independently of the community decision I have created a dynamic map for the central districts as well (please see below).--Renek78 (talk) 19:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Why not to use district boundaries from Russian Wikivoyage? I have drawn them with a few meter precision making sure that boundaries of different districts match, and all deviations from administrative boundaries are very intentional. Your current 'Maryina Roscha' district does not include the actual neighborhood of 'Maryina Roscha', and the split in the south is anything but meaningless, because most of the monasteries are excluded. --Alexander (talk) 21:30, 28 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Alexander, I would have done that but couldn't figure out, how to access that information on the Russian Wikivoyage. But since it is your work: Can you tell me how to get the geojson of your map?--Renek78 (talk) 07:01, 29 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

District boundaries are stored in Template:Boundary/PAGENAME, where PAGENAME stands for the name of the district page. Eventually, they could/should be moved to the Data: namespace on Commons. --Alexander (talk) 07:37, 29 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hmmm... not able to find it. "Template:Boundary/Pagename" here on Wikivoyage or Commons? I tried all types of URL's now without success. Could you give me the link to the Moscow overview map as an example? Thanks! --Renek78 (talk) 09:09, 29 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

You should check at Russian Wikivoyage. For example, this template contains the boundary for the city center (Москва/Центр). Other boundaries can be found by changing the district name in the name of the template. For example, this one stands for Arbat. Maps of outer districts (North, South, etc.) should be drawn more carefully, but it's crucial and intentional that they also deviate from administrative boundaries. --Alexander (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Alexander! Please have a look below. Since I am on it I thought of setting up a simplified district map as well, so people can later decide on which one to add to the article. I did something quick and dirty and wanted to ask you whether this is reasonable or not: http://bl.ocks.org/d/fb664f3ee0afaddb0c8206c34e6320b6 --Renek78 (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! I see that you created the Data page on Commons. I have a few comments in this respect. First, placing all boundaries on one page prevents us from displaying boundaries in individual district articles. For example, here the map displays the district boundary, which is only possible when we can access this boundary individually. Second, I am not sure whether it is a good idea to specify colors in the data file on Commons. This was normally part of the {{regionlist}} template. Can one overwrite the colors using the template? If not, I would remove them from the data file.

As for the 'simplified' map, no, it does not make much sense to me. You can see that the districts were discussed at length in Russian Wikivoyage, and many knowledgeable people weighed in, so, honestly, I don't expect anyone here to come up with a better suggestion. You can't use Boulevard Ring as the boundary of the central district, because many neighborhoods like Arbat and Pokrovka straddle the Boulevard Ring. Garden Ring is a slightly better choice, but you still have a problem with the Tagansky district and Zamoskvorechye, which can't be naturally split by the Garden Ring. Once again, the boundaries of Central Moscow have been well-thought, and choosing them differently won't be a good idea. --Alexander (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Alexander, boundaries can be created with so called "Mapmasks". The code is converted from a gpx with help of gpx2mapmask. Since I have drawn the contours with JOSM it is easy to export a gpx and apply gpx2mapmask. I have created the mapmasks for each of the 18 articles and pasted them below. Examples for Wikivoyage articles with maps saved in Commons and mapmasks are Kuala Lumpur and Amsterdam, which I have created recently. Colors, names and opacity can be changed very conveniently right in the GeoJSON in Commons. Just click on edit and search for the value you want to change.

So if I understand you correctly then it is either everything (19 articles) or nothing (1 article) for Moscow. This surprises me quite a bit, frankly. There must be another way to split the city for a less exhaustive travel guide - even if it is just for the next 5 years plus until there is enough information to split to 19 articles.--Renek78 (talk) 19:21, 1 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

It is more efficient to have boundary information in one place, so I would not support generation of separate mapmasks for each district. You can have one data file per district and use the same data file everywhere.

As for the smaller number of districts, you are welcome to propose a different scheme, but "there must be" is not a meaningful argument. As they currently stand, the Moscow articles contain a lot of rubbish. All useful information can be put back into a single article for the next 5 years, that's the easiest solution. --Alexander (talk) 05:29, 2 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Below are individual "Mapmasks" for each of the 18 Moscow district articles. The code will grey out everything outside the district border. It just has to get pasted below the Mapframe. Example: Amsterdam - Binnenstad

• Arbat

• Basmanny

• East

• Khamovniki

• Kremlin

• Maryina

• North

• North-East

• North-West

• Pokrowski

• Presnya

• South

• South-East

• South-West

• Taganskaya

• Tverskaya

• West

• Zamoskvorechye

Can someone confirm or contradict the assumption that the dash / in the phone numbers show alternative numbers and not that a / has to be entered when dialling or is a method of separating a long single number? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:27, 26 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Тверь-коллаж1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Международный автовокзал «Южные ворота» в Москве.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)Reply