Talk:Yangshuo Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

I doubt the "silk" items are real silk. What I have seen is mostly polyester. It's very hard to spot the difference if you are not a textile expert.

An anonymous user deleted something I put it, link to a tourist guide "a pleasant lass with reasonable English is Lily 13471397956". I'm putting it back, since I see no reason for the removal. Comment, anyone? (WT-en) Pashley 06:34, 23 May 2006 (EDT)

Current text is:

Advice for tourists who have no idea what the Chinese price should be:

• assume nothing on offer here is worth more than half of the asking price, and most things quite a bit less
• try perhaps a quarter of the asking price as your first offer.

When I wrote that, I said

• assume nothing on offer here is worth more than a third of the asking price, and most things quite a bit less
• try perhaps a tenth of the asking price as your first offer.

I really feel my numbers are more accurate, but would like to hear other opinions. Anyone? (WT-en) Pashley 02:39, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

No comment in several months, so I've changed it. (WT-en) Pashley 23:27, 9 November 2006 (EST)

.. and someone changed that to "assume nothing on offer here is worth more than a quarter of the asking price". Interesting. (WT-en) Pashley 06:46, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Someone has now deleted that advice entirely here. This is probably OK since it is now covered at the end of Bargaining#Basic_tactics and we have links to Bargaining in this article. Pashley (talk) 03:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I've just rolled back several edits from an anonymous user adding links. See Project:External links and Project:Don't tout for the rationale for this. (WT-en) Pashley 11:22, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

You have the Karst Hotel listed as Mid-Range, but they do have some cheap rooms. Their dormitory-style rooms are the same price as at Monkey Jane's, and cheaper than the Backstreet Hostel but it's much, much nicer. Everything is clean and they put bright, pretty duvet covers and pillow cases on all the bedding. You get to the Karst Hotel by going down the alley directly opposite the entrance to China Climb.

Also, you should note on here that Monkey Jane's can be really dirty. I stayed there one night and had mice, cockroaches and lots and lots of mold, all in the same room. -Kari

I added details about the Karst Hotel, but it is still listed as mid-range. I wonder if it should be listed in both budget and mid range, because the dormitory rooms are very affordable- 15 RMB per night when I was there during July 2007. (WT-en) Krudd01 19:47, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Are personal opinions, like 98 Bar being arguably the best hangout in town, allowed?

Most entries are biased - new hotels, bars, restaurants get added by owners or friends of owners, or just as bad, someone who visited for 2 days and thought they knew everything (However, Bar 98 is full of douche bags)

Plunge forward! (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:36, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Some people might be of the opinion that the Aussies that hang there are arguably the biggest douche bags in town.

Bias and personal opinions are actually welcomed, so long as they are, broadly speaking, fair—you can't write a guide without recommendations. If you think it is an unfair description, please do plunge forward and make it right! You might also want to check out Project:Avoid negative reviews, though. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:21, 9 January 2008 (EST)

shameless self-promotions seem like a big disease of TravelWiki (WT-en) Travelstar 13:40, 15 July 2012 (EDT)

I rewrote somewhat. I think it still needs both more places and more detail on some we have. (WT-en) Pashley

I think the current text is too complex; it needs to be cleaned up and summarised. I wrote some of it and would prefer someone else, more objective, do the cleanup. (WT-en) Pashley 10:10, 9 January 2008 (EST)

I went ahead and changed it. Others should have a look, perhaps improve it. (WT-en) Pashley 21:16, 12 January 2008 (EST)

I deleted "with authentic western cuisine and a good standard of English spoken." I was there a few months ago, and no one spoke English at all and the food was just like the rest of china...it was awesome, but not western.

This diff [1] deletes info on Vietnamese visas which I consider worth keeping. Other opinions? (WT-en) Pashley 19:32, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Keep it -- it's about obtaining visas in Yangshuo, which is relevant. I've reverted (and changed the wording a bit). (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:12, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

An anonymous contributor deleted this listing without explanation. I reverted, giving the place the benefit of the doubt, but maybe there's good reason to delete, so I'm asking here. (WT-en) Pashley 10:31, 12 September 2008 (EDT) it has closed down!!!! -

Is there a policy on listing these? Is there a slippery slope we should worry about?

Almost the first thing on this talk page is me arguing that a guide listing should go back in after someone deleted it. I did put it back, but it has since been deleted again. Apparently some people feel we should not give info on good local guides. I'd say they're wrong, but that does not mean I'm entirely clear on how to handle such info.

Sometimes it is clear. I've recently deleted touting text here and others took the same text out of China, Guilin, Tibet, ...

We currently have a messed up listing of several guides under Get around/Tour Guides. It is sufficiently unreadable (despite or perhaps because of recent edits) that I cannot tell how to salvage it. Should we trash it? Or can someone fix it, so that a reader can tell which name goes with which phone number? If we are using tags, then each guide should have their own <listing>..</listing> tags.

Other guides are mentioned, without tagging, under See/Yangshuo Town. Obviously, we want only one list (or zero). Where? And should it use tags? (WT-en) Pashley 08:15, 2 March 2009 (EST)

I split it up into separately tagged items. (WT-en) Pashley 21:46, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

OK, this seems to be running problem. I recently de-touted some, perhaps not enough. Then Gorilla Jones, a regular contributor whose judgement I'm inclined to respect, deleted the whole section. Is there a policy that covers this? Where? If not, what should policy be?

The Gorilla didn't get everything. Some of the same guides are mentioned at Guilin#Contact, and there's more guide info at Yangshuo#Yangshuo_town, Should it all go? Why?

I'd be inclined to leave in a list of guides that gives only name and contact info (phone, email, office address, website), with names in alphabetical order. The touting text must go, and it seems to me the way to handle that is by having no text. Other opinions? (WT-en) Pashley 11:25, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

They should all be deleted. We run into this situation with Southeast Asia guides quite often, especially Siem Reap. There are so many of these tour guides who work these places. A first stop would be Project:Activity_listings and the talk page. The basic rule of thumb is Wikivoyage is designed for independent travelers, and that we only list tour operators/tour guides who can provide access to a place that you could not access independently (such as North Korea). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 11:51, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't agree with Gorilla. Wikivoyage is built for making travelers conveniently. The list can help tourists find good operators easily. If there are no listing, tourists may be touted by non-qualified guides at the exits of airport, train station and bus station. According the to listing policy(http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Activity_listings#Tour_listings) I think any tour operators who meet the 4 conditions blow can be listed. 1.The operator must have a "real world" office with a phone number and address. 2.Do not list tour operators that act as a booking agent or travel-planner for the traveler—tour agencies should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikivoyage guides. Listed tours should count as an activity available at a destination (e.g., a helicopter tour of a city, or a camel expedition into the Sahara). 3.Do not list resellers of tours, only list the actual tour operators. 4.Always list tour agencies if they are requisite to visit a certain area. Examples include tours required by law (e.g., Panmunjeom) and tours required due to exceptional danger (e.g., war zones and extreme environments such as the Amazon, Antarctica, Space, etc). I do agree that booking agent should not be listed here. Top Level Tour offer train ticket, hotel booking and etc. however, our cord service is to act as an operator for tourists who need our package or private tour and booking services are built for making tourists conveniently not our cord business. Moreover, individual guide should not be listed because they are not operators but probably tout. It would be great that require the operator summit their business liscense to somewhere in wikivoyage to verify before they list their names on it. I am sure by this way, travelers can reach good operators direcly and easily through wikivoyage.

1) Don't spam your comments across multiple articles.

2) Gorilla Jones is not simply offering an opinion—he is citing policy.

3) Policy = Tour listings are welcome on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity, rather than a booking service or general travel planning.

4) If you want that policy changed, bring it up at the policy talk page, not here.

5) I do not think you will be successful in changing this policy. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:42, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

It is good that we have a right place to share our different views.

1) It is not spam. You can delete the same reply on the other page. I think you did already.In the future we can just talk here instead of talking the same issue in two different pages.

2) Ok, Gorilla is citing policy.

3) As I have claimed in another page, I state again here: Top Level Tour is NOT an agent for any tour operators and NOT a booking service office. Our services are valueble. We have our own tourguides, cars, office and we offer package and private tour to travelers directly without any agents. Our office is just 5mins' walk from train station and hundreds of travelers have joined our tours; if needed you can leave an email add here so I can email you our license as a qualificated tour operator in China.

4&5) I agree with the policy. I don't need to change it.

Look at the one of Tri-Star Pilot Service Tours,(http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Activity_listings#Listing_subdivisions_and_order) It is sample of Activity Listings. If it can be listed I think we can too. Otherwise it is unfair:-( That's what I want to claim. I still think Top Level Tour meet the conditions and should be listed. Hope to get your reply soon. Thank you! Lily

It does not. Someone flying you through a city in a prop plane is an activity. A tour agency that removes the need to use our guides is not. Frankly, I don't believe you are this dense, that you realize that you are not going to have your tour agency listed here, and are here only to pester. Your idiosyncratic interpretation of our tour policy is anyway irrelevant, since no one else agrees with you. You are therefore simply wasting time (I'm not sure whose, really), and I will not comment on this further. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:18, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

It does not?:-( Can you please elabrote which conditions that we don't meet in http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Activity_listings#Tour_listings I am not pester. I just take people's advice and present our case in the right place where we talk about. No one else agrees with me? I think only you and some people don't. "Your idiosyncratic interpretation of our tour policy is anyway irrelevant" ? You always never list the specific item while I always present my opinions with the specific items of the rules from wikivoyage pages supported. You have been finding different pages of the rules of wikivoyage to contradict me but they are absurdness. I have been studying the rules for a long time and I exactly know our agency do not be against any of them. Thank you! Lily

Wikivoyage is designed for independent travelers. The Activity Listings page says this, right above the section you keep quoting:

In general, if a traveler could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed on Wikivoyage.

An independent traveler doesn't need your help to visit Yangshuo. He can do it by himself. But he can't fly a plane by himself, so he needs Tri-Star Pilot Tours. He can't go to North Korea by himself because of government rules, so he needs a tour operator. But he can visit the places in Yangshuo by himself, without a tour operator, using our Wikivoyage guide. He can "fulfill the substance of the tour on his own". You only offer hotel booking (can do it himself), train booking (can do it himself), tour guides (can do it himself), and convenience (can do it himself). So we don't list tour operators like yours for Yangshuo. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 12:13, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

Thanks. This new reason is more reasonble not like the other ones that asks me to read this page and that page without giving me a specific reason. I am glad help wikivoyage to edit more information according to the rules in the future. I just wonder you guys check wikivoyage every day and reply people 's messages and you don't need to work and have fun with friends? Top Level Tour-Lily in Guilin, China

Thank you for being concerned about us. But traveling is fun, so it's fun to write about traveling! Gorilla Jones in Chicago, USA.

I dont believe the bald assertion "Wikivoyage is designed for independent travelers.". Granted, most of the writers and many of the readers fit that description, but it has been argued elsewhere that, for example, having an article on War zone safety is a good idea because WT is not just for tourists and the Wikivoyage_talk:Votes_for_deletion page discusses having articles on places like Wake Island that are only open to military personnel and their contractors. So I do not thing it is only for independent travellers, perhaps mainly but not only.

Many travellers do use these services, especially in places like Yangshuo where a guide really helps if you want to get out into the countryside and a tour may be the best way to see the terrace farming areas. You can certainly do both on your own, but not every traveller wants to. They can be fairly difficult if you do not speak or read Chinese and some travellers would sooner spend the money than have the hassle. Personally, I'd only consider using a guide or taking a tour someplace like Agra or the Forbidden City where I want the explanation of the history, but that's me.

So I think links to guides and tour operators (not resellers) do belong in this article. I'd even include guides that lack a "real world office", the ones that work out of some cafe in Yangshuo. It does need some comment about avoiding the touts around the bus stations and asking to see a license, though. (WT-en) Pashley 21:27, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Believe whatever hairy or bald assertions you like — it's written into the fiber of every Star article on this site. The terms on when tour operators should and should not be listed are laid out on Project:Activity_listings, and if you want to change them, Project:Activity_listings is the place to open a discussion. I've never been to Yangshuo, but I shudder to think how choked and cluttered any Thailand article, for example, would be under the terms you're suggesting. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 21:46, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

We have a nascent edit war about a car hire listing. I don't think a listing for a specific car hire company is appropriate, unless perhaps there's only one such company in Yangshuo - especially, given the description:

"A professional service designed to provide tourists with efficient and safe private transportation while visiting Guilin, Yangshuo and Longsheng."

I might have left up simple contact information.

The lister claims it's not an ad, but a service to visitors, to keep the listing here. Your opinions, please? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:53, 13 April 2011 (EDT)

I think it is fine. Listing a couple of car rental companies is better than nothing. As some tourists need this service. Just make sure that it is not from travel agencies(indirect to rent car) so that there is no edit war. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 58.252.109.246 (talk • contribs)

Certainly looks like a tour agency to me, but doesn't have the necessary information. -- (WT-en) D. Guillaime 12:39, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

Hi Guillaime, do you mean that as a car hire company it can be listed after fill up all the necessary information of the company? Or are there any more rules for listing car hire company?

Read Project:External links#What not to link to, Project:Activity_listings#Tour_listings, and Project:Don't tout. Not everything on those pages will be relevant to your particular case, but see whether what you want to list actually conforms to all that's covered on those pages. If it doesn't, there's no way it can be listed. If it does, those pages give you guidelines for how to post a listing in the proper tone. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:36, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

I think it is okay to be listed with all the necessary information like the car hire companies listed in European countries wikivoyage pages. If you don't agree with me please read Project:External links#What not to link to, Project:Activity_listings#Tour_listings and find out the specific relevant rules.

You have to demonstrate that your listing conforms; merely asserting that you think it's OK is not sufficient. And this text from your website[2] strongly suggests otherwise:

Why us?

1. You will enjoy safe & hassle-free travel with our more than 10 years' experience.

2. You will have a professional driver who can also work as your tour guide free of charge.

3. You will save your time by letting us plan your trip with our deep local knowledge free of charge. You will enjoy the most affordable price.

See the words "tour guide" there? And of course, "free of charge" is a bogus marketing ploy. Obviously, guiding is somehow worked into the price tourists would pay. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 09:12, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

The drivers don't have official tour guide license. Their job is mainly driving not guiding. But when a driver is with passengers alone in a small car they will talk and driver will introduce some something for the passengers. This kind of guiding is not professional and can't charge money for the service. That's why "You will have a professional driver who can also work as your tour guide free of charge." Passengers don't expect high quality of guiding because what they pay is for hiring a car with driver who can guide them a little bit NOT a professional tour guide.

I am not convinced, guess there are hundreds of those in Yanshuo, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 19:02, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

@ClausHansen Hundreds of those are run by travel agencies. Redirect the customers to private own cars. No more than 3 car rental companies in Yangshuo county and no more than 5 in Guilin city. Customers can't contact car rental companies easily.

I saw one car rental company in Guilin (just under How Hostel) and didn't see any in Yangshuo. I thought it didn't exist.

You say "The drivers don't have official tour guide license. Their job is mainly driving not guiding." Does that mean the whole thing is illegal? I know China has a whole system of licenses for guides, but am not sure what the rules for unlicensed guides are. (WT-en) Pashley 04:32, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

There are many inaccuracies as regards prices in the article. E.g. in the taxi section, it says that you have to pay at least 20-30 yuan for a 300 m - 3 km distance. This is absolutely wrong. The taxi drivers will ask you 20-30 yuan, but after bargaining you can easily (within seconds!) achieve a much better price (e.g. 10 yuan) for the same distances.

Then, in the section focused especially on prices, I read that prices in Yangshuo are "highly inflated". This is also definitely wrong. In many items, I found in Yangshuo the best prices (always after bargaining, although sometimes not very hard). After all, the table in the same section contradicts the previous text! In 3 of the 7 listed items I see better prices for Yangshuo than elsewhere in China!

In any case, Yangshuo is by far much cheaper in most items than Shanghai, and I can say that with absolute certainty!

I will try to correct some of the aforementioned inaccuracies, based on my personal recent experience.

PS: The standard price for ties in China is 10 yuans and not 20, as it is wrongly mentioned.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

In my experience asking prices in Yangshuo are quite inflated, though if you haggle well they become reasonable.

I did the original version of that table back around 2007. It was accurate then, but I agree it is mess now. Pashley (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Here's a version from 2006:

Item	asking price		Price paid
	elsewhere	Yangshuo
silk ties	18-20	75-120	50 RMB for 3
small silk scarves	unknown	80-100	20
large scarf/wrap	80	120-150	50

Pashley (talk) 12:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Asking price are often inflated everywhere in China! I can tell you asking prices in Shanghai which were 5-10 times higher than the finally agreed price (e.g. asking price for a big silk fake scarf 325 yuans, and finally agreed price 70 yuans [which was still higher than the actual one, because when I left the seller was triumphant!], or asking price for 2 sets of fake socks 35 yuans, and finally agreed price 10 yuans). My experience in Yangshuo and Guilin was not much different than elsewhere. They ask whatever they want, and then you start bargaining with them trying to find out which is their real price! But (unfortunately) this is the case wherever I have been in China!

I did some updating as regards taxi prices in Yangshuo. I did not mess with the table, because I am not sure about all the items. Based on my own experience, the last advice (buy elsewhere in China if you can) does not seem to be correct (at least not in all cases).--Yannismarou (talk) 13:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

For instance, chinese hand fans are much cheaper in Yangshuo (8 yuans each without bargaining) than in Shanghai (15-20 yuans each often after bargaining!). This is also the case for 2-years old traditional chinese child dresses (25-30 yuans each after bargainind in Yangshuo; circa 50 yuans after bargaining in Shanghai).--Yannismarou (talk) 13:14, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Asking prices have been inflated in every tourist area I have visited — China, India, the Middle East, Southeast Asia — and I have heard stories from other areas. Also, prices sometimes depend on where you are from. A westerner or Japanese might be quoted more than a Chinese, and an out-of-province Chinese more than a local.

Maybe there is nothing special about Yangshuo and we should delete the section?

However, I do think travellers need to know they need to bargain to get sane prices; at least that much should stay in. Pashley (talk) 13:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

A new user just removed info on Mono bar & replaced it with Bad Panda, almost next door. (diff) I suspect this violates our policy at Wikivoyage:Welcome,_business_owners#Never_remove_info_on_competitors, but have not reverted because I am not certain. Has Mono closed? Pashley (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

@Pashley. The bar formally known as Mono is now a rooftop Bar called Bad Panda. Mono closed down around 2 years ago, and has recently been reopened as a bar and Hostel called Bad Panda. If editing the existing business violates some policies I can create a new one, But i can assure you that Mono no longer resides at this address.—The preceding comment was added by 116.1.70.150 (talk • contribs)

In that case, the search results haven't caught up with this. Go ahead and post a listing. P.S.: Please sign your posts on talk pages like this one by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row before pressing Enter. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

The current banner is named "Yongshuebanner.jpg", but its commons page says it is from the Yangshuo area and it certainly looks it. Should we correct the spelling? Or is there a place called Yongshue? Pashley (talk) 04:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, Pashley, I have no idea. I just cropped the existing banner. --Danapit (talk) 16:06, 22 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I see no listing for this bar which, when I was last in Y about 2010, was busy and popular. Several other listings, though, use Bar 98 as a reference point; their place is "across the street from" or "a bit South of" Bar 98. We should either add a listing for 98 or delete the references; I'm not sure which.

Personally, I rather liked the place; food and music were good, the location central, the view nice and some of the conversation good. On the other hand, I do think the commenter at #biased above had a point; some customers were utter louts.

Has anyone got recent info? Pashley (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

It seems the listing was removed in this edit, back in Jan 2013, by an anon IP with no other contributions (except for an edit to another bar listing), and without stating the reason for the removal. It might be safe to revive the listing until we've got solid evidence on the ground that the place has closed its doors forever. Vidimian (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I restored the listing based on above discussion, but I notice that Lonely Planet have deleted theirs so that may have been a mistake. Pashley (talk) 05:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Text in the understand section gives some street names in Chinese characters, and the map gives more. As far as I can tell, the text and the map do not match. Pashley (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

How is China Unicom mobile reception there? 22:59, 24 August 2015 (UTC) Darryn

I have not been there in about five years. My China Mobile phone worked fine & in several visits totalling about a month spread out over a few years I never heard anyone complaining about bad reception. Pashley (talk) 02:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply