User talk:Chongkian Voyage Tips and guide

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Apa khabar? I saw that you added a bunch of entries to businesses in Ayer Keroh, Malacca in the Malacca (state) article. It seems like there's enough content for an article about the town, if you'd like to start an article about it. If you do, please move the listings to the new article.

Yang benar,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Looks like these two articles between Malacca (state) for the Malacca State and Malacca for Malacca City are a bit mixed up with each other. So what I was trying to do is to separate things between the two. For everything that are located inside Malacca City, I will write/move it into Malacca articles. And for those outside the city/town/Bandar Hilir area, I'll write/move it to Malacca (state) article, for areas like Bukit Baru, Ayer Keroh, Peringgit, Klebang, Jasin, Alor Gajah, Durian Tunggal etc. Business entities added are famous restaurants in which inside the Malacca City article has a lot already, e.g. the Satay Celup, Geographer Cafe, Formosa Chicken Rice Ball etc. So I'm trying to write that in the Malacca (state) article to show people that there are more to explore outside the town area. Even with the current listing, I think it is barely considered enough (not many enough to for people to make it as tourism 'guidebook', in which of course that's the main purpose of having Wikivoyage). I'm trying to improve not only about the business/restaurant entities, but also the tourist objects (Hang Tuah Village, Malacca House, Malacca Planetarium, Asahan Waterfall, Agriculture Museum in Jasin, Alor Gajah Square etc), transportation (the Panorama Bus), outdoor activities (jungle trekking in Laman Tiga Budaya, Sungai Udang and Bukit Batu Lebah Recreational Forest, kayaking in Ayer Keroh Lake, drifting in Malacca International Motorsport Circuit) etc. There are just still a lot of room for improvements. Cheers :) Chongkian (talk) 00:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

You're doing a great job, and your approach is exactly right. The only thing I'm saying is, when you have enough content for articles about other towns in Malacca state, it could be even better to create articles about those and link them from the "Cities" section of Malacca (state). Until then, absolutely continue adding content from outside Malacca City to the article about the state. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Oh, now I get your point. Yeah, that would be the future plan (very soon), e.g. once there are so many info about Ayer Keroh, then it's time to make Ayer Keroh Wikivoyage article. But at this moment, I'm gonna improve first on the Malacca State and Malacca City articles first based on the reasons I've mentioned earlier. I'm still taking more and more photos about Malacca to be put in Wiki Commons at the moment. Thanks for the suggestion though. And feel free to add more contents or photos if you are around this area. :) Chongkian (talk) 02:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Unfortunately, I am not. I haven't been back to Malaysia since 2003. But yes, keep going! Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi there,

I saw you did a lot of edits on the Johor Bahru article yesterday. A lot of it is good and I agree with you that for instance a lot of it is too much focused on Singapore (for instance, there's no relevance in knowing that Cathay cinemas is owned by a Singaporean company). However, there is one major edit which I don't agree with:

• You removed the listing of Changi Airport with the comment 'this article is about everything inside johor bahru, not inside singapore'. I think we should keep this listing. While it's an article about JB and not Singapore, as the listing stated the airport in Singapore is probably the most convenient way of getting to JB from most places outside Malaysia due to the fact that the airport in JB has only very few connections and almost no international ones. Stating this is useful information to the traveler interested in visiting JB and should be left there. This is not about being Singapore-centric or Malaysia-centric, this is just about giving the traveler the most useful information.

I am going to reinstate this listing for now. If you feel very strongly about removing it, we should start a discussion on the Talk page and let some other users also give their opinion.

Thanks Drat70 (talk) 01:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Well, I'm not really against it actually. In fact, what you actually say is really correct and I know many people use it that way. We can keep that fact, but somehow we have to write it so that Changi Airport becomes a 'sub' or 'subordinate' of airport in Johor (or in a section of 'additional info' or 'travel tips' or anything like that), but not equal to Senai Airport, just so that people know that Changi Airport is clearly not "within/part" of Johor Bahru. But as a general rule, everything has to be from Malaysia point of view first. Because the sad part is, this Johor Bahru Wikivoyage article mentions the word Malaysia for only 60 times, while for the word Singapore they mention 94 times (which I have greatly reduce from the previous probably almost 150-ish) Chongkian (talk) 01:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Well, I think it's already very clear from the listing that Changi airport is not in Johor Bahru and that Senai is the main airport. It states clearly that the airport is 'across the border in Singapore' and then goes on to detail how you have to pass immigration twice. Furthermore the listing has much less detail than the Senai Airport one and just links to the Changi Airport article. If you really feel strongly about it, we can make it shorter by taking out the sentence on the 'Transtar Travel's "cross border" coach service' and move that information to the Singapore Changi Airport article. And as I said, you can always start a discussion on the talk page, if you still feel it should be removed, so that others can give their opinion. (In case I might be biased).

On a general note, you keep repeating that it should be from a Malaysia point of view. While I agree in principle that the article should stand on its own and not be too Singapore-centric, we also have to see that it should be from a travelers point of view, and not from a national point of view. It is a fact that a big part of the people traveling to JB come from Singapore or transit in Singapore, so it is only normal that the information should cater to those people as well. Somebody staying in JB probably won't need a travel guide to JB, whereas somebody coming from Singapore might need it. That doesn't mean this article isn't too Singapore-centric (it definitely is, or was before your substantial edits), but it just means we should make sure that the page caters to all those different groups of travelers, including those coming from or via Singapore.

Maybe as an illustration, you mention there are 94 mentions of Singapore left in the article. There are 66 mentions of Malaysia, another 25 of Johor and many more of other cities in Malaysia and Indonesia in the main Singapore article. This is just due to the geographical closeness and the fact that many travelers will want to know how to get to these places etc. For instance as it is now, most of those 94 mentions are within the Get in section. Drat70 (talk) 01:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hello, Chongkian, and thanks for all the edits to articles about places in Malaysia! I reverted most of the work you did on West Coast (Malaysia), because I think you mistook it for an article about all of West Malaysia, when it's really only about the West Coast (minus Johor, which since it has both an east and a west coast, is in its own region). Also, I'm not sure about some of the pictures of hotels that you're adding. Some may be fine, others not. You can use as your guideline the text and pictures at WV:Listings#Images:

Images of businesses, including hotels and their bedrooms, should generally not be posted as illustrations inside the section. The only exceptions are if the business is a well-known attraction in its own right, or if the image is of a type of accommodation that is unusual and unique to the region. In the second case, identifying the lodgings where the picture was taken by name is not necessary.

The Raffles is an icon of Singapore — the Holiday Inn is not.

Yang ikhlas,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 17 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

P.S. I know that the city, the state and the tree are Melaka in Malay, but the standard governing spelling of names on this site is which spelling is most commonly used in English, and I think that would still be Malacca. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

The name in Malay language has always been Melaka, but the name in English language was officially changed from Malacca to Melaka, as announced by the Melaka State Government in May 2017. I'm using this as the basis of the name change. Of course not everything has changed to Melaka yet and still many still retain the Malacca name. But slowly we need to change this as the common name. If not, 10 years from now, there will always still be this Malacca as the 'common' name. Same like when they renamed Sears Tower to Willis Tower in the United States and Burj Dubai to Burj Khalifa in the UAE, the name change took effect immediately and the whole world use the new name right away. — The preceding comment was added by Chongkian (talk • contribs)

The standard for nomenclature on this site isn't official spelling or naming but what name is most commonly used in English. Therefore, we should wait. And keep in mind that some local names never become the most common in English. Some examples: Moskva, Roma, Firenze, Venezia, Köln, Krung Thep, La Habana. We don't know yet whether the name Malacca will go the way of Peking and Canton or whether it will hang on everywhere but Malaysia and Indonesia. Anyway, I hope the hotel photo guidelines were useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hello. I see that you unilaterally changed the name of the Malacca article to Melaka City. I dispute this change per Wikivoyage:Naming conventions. Please read my post at the end of the Talk:Melaka City article and make an argument there that the Malay spelling is now most used in the English language, or please revert your change of name. Thanks a lot.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:11, 22 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Please do not unilaterally change the spelling of Malacca in any article, as a consensus agreed to revert your changes in the Malacca and Malacca (state) articles. If you'd like to revisit that decision, please make an argument at Talk:Malacca#Malacca/Melaka. Terima kasih. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Let's talk about this a little bit. Thailand is quite far from Batu Pahat, whereas Singapore is not so far. I'd like to hear you out: Why isn't Singapore a reasonable place to go next? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

As I previously mentioned to you, we are not about being Singapore-centric or Malaysia-centric. We are about being traveller-centric as per Wikivoyage:The traveller comes first and Wikivoyage:Be fair. Many tourists do visit Singapore and several Malaysian cities as part of a road trip, so we need to include information that is relevant to them too. If you really feel that I'm not being fair to you, or that WV is not being fair to Malaysia, I will tell you right now that you are welcome to edit the Singapore article and write negative things about Singapore, and as long as they are true and relevant for travellers, I will not oppose your edits. The dog2 (talk) 19:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

This edit has not been reverted so far. Shall we revert it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'd say go ahead and revert it. @Chongkian: If you feel really strongly about excluding Singapore, please go to the talk page and come to a consensus before you delete the listing. The dog2 (talk) 02:47, 13 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Chongkian, out of respect for you, I can wait a day or so before reverting, to give you a chance to offer an argument. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:04, 13 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Looking at the map, Bahat Pahu is actually closer to Singapore than to Kuala Lumpur and most of the rest of Malaysia so why on Earth should it not be included? What's more, Singapore is also a popular destination in the region and you can cross the border normally (it's no North Korea). Talking of other countries, Indonesia (Sumatra) is close by as well (if there are ferries?). ϒpsilon (talk) 05:34, 13 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Reverted, but of course you are always free to offer an argument at any point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:04, 14 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for adding so much content! This will really help me whenever I have a chance to go back to Malaysia! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:37, 3 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Well, things are changing fast everyday (new/changes in buildings, museums, restaurants, bus routes etc). Sure we need some people who are willing to keep updating this (and add details such as coordinate, photo, wikipedia articles, public transportation access etc), and without using any advertisement-related wordings and also from a neutral (3rd person) point of view. That's the hardest part and not everyone can accept that ~ :( And no, I don't and will never talk bad (using degrading words) about something whenever I write things. I always try to keep a good intention in writing things, which is to add more detailed listings in everything, in which many people always overlook. When talking about Johor, people will only talk about JB City Square or Legoland most of the time. In reality, that is just 1% of what Johor is about. There are way more things out there. Chongkian (talk) 01:42, 3 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Well said! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:53, 3 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Speaking of which, shouldn't we have a listing for AEON Bukit Indah? I remember the last time I was in the area, that was quite a nice shopping mall. The dog2 (talk) 17:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oh, not many people know that there are two cities in Johor state, which are Johor Bahru itself and another one is Iskandar Puteri, which was established as a city recently in November 2017. The area coverage of Johor Bahru is listed in MBJB website (in Malay) (Majlis Bandaraya Johor Bahru or Johor Bahru City Council in English) and the area coverage of Iskandar Puteri is listed in MBIP website (in Malay) (Majlis Bandaraya Iskandar Puteri or Iskandar Puteri City Council). From there, Taman Bukit Indah (in which AEON Bukit Indah is located) is part of Iskandar Puteri, and I have listed the mall in Iskandar Puteri Wikivoyage article; same information was also written in its Wikipedia article (ÆON Bukit Indah Shopping Centre). Again, this is to let everyone in this world (outside Malaysia) knows that Johor is not only about JB or City Square only. There are "thousand" other things about Johor beside City Square. Chongkian (talk) 23:19, 6 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Of course. You're doing a great job. I've been to Mersing, Kota Tinggi and Kukup so I'm aware of how big Johor is. And although I've never been there, I would like to visit Muar and try the famous otak one day. The dog2 (talk) 18:30, 7 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm not really that familiar with them - in the 70s, there weren't any, or if there were, we didn't use them. Are they very useful for finding a specific business or points of interest, or are they usually for entire villages and large portions of towns? For what it's worth, current policy, as laid out at Wikivoyage:Listings#Template parameters, is: Do not include the city (if the same as the page title), the state/province or postal code (except for addresses in the United Kingdom, which should include the post code.

In practice, I think there are some other countries whose postal codes we include, and maybe the entire policy is wrongheaded, but I don't think Malaysian postal codes have been specifically discussed, so you might bring them up at Wikivoyage talk:Listings. I won't go through deleting the postal codes you've included, as that would be a pointless thing to do, IMO, but it's possible someone else might do that if there's no guideline that supports their inclusion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

I hope I don't sound unfriendly here because I really do appreciate your work in adding information about destinations in Malaysia. However, I notice that you seem to have an obsession with removing all mentions of Singapore in articles about Malaysia. As I previously mentioned to you, we are about serving travellers here, and simply because of proximity as well as a common history, many travellers will visit Singapore and Malaysia as part of the same trip, and moderate comparisons are useful for such travellers. For instance, it is useful for people to know that many things in Johor Bahru are cheaper than in Singapore, especially for budget conscious travellers. I would like to understand why you object so much to even including such information. Nobody is trying to vilify Malaysia here, and neither are we trying to promote Singapore at the expense of Malaysia. All we want to do is to provide information that serves travellers best. The dog2 (talk) 18:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, you've been warned about this several times in the past and as an administrator on this site, I have to regretfully inform you that this behavior is rapidly leading you towards user ban territory. You do good work on this site, so it would be a shame if it had to come to that. Please, once again, it would behoove you to cease this behavior pattern before we're forced to cease it on your behalf. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:24, 23 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello Chongkian. The removal of Singapore from Malaysia articles is still somewhat of an issue. The main issue is that this has been raised with you several times, but you haven't responded at all. What should be a minor disagreement has become worse because you're not communicating with others about it. Wikivoyage is a collaborative project, and communication between Wikivoyagers is essential.

I'll level with you, a few of us have had our heads together over at AndreCarrotflower's talk page and, as you can read from that conversation, you're very close to user block territory again, which as you've been blocked before for three days, would mean you would be blocked for two weeks, per Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks.

None of us wants to block you. You've contributed great work to Wikivoyage over the years, including of course to Johor Bahru which is likely to be featured as Destination of the Month early next year. I would love it if you were here for that, but that's entirely up to you.

The next time you see something about Singapore in an article about Malaysia that you feel isn't relevant, I would like you to post on the talk page of that article and find out what others think before you make the change. This is an act of courtesy towards other Wikivoyagers and shows you're willing to listen to different opinions and work as part of a team.

Work with us on this one - replying to this message would be a good start. We can discuss this further if you want: you can tell me your side, I can explain my position further if necessary and answer any questions you may have.

At the very least, I expect confirmation from you that you've read and understood this message. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

I notice you changed the link for Batu Caves from Koala Lumpur to Selangor ("more appropriate location"). The listing is however in Kuala Lumpur/North. Please, when you do anything that has to do with borders or regions, check what borders are used on Wikivoyage, and conform to them. You can of course raise an issue on the relevant talk pages to change the divisions, but until there is a consensus and the borders are changed, the traveller should be pointed to the article that in fact describes the place.

Here was also another issue: when a sight or destination is mentioned somewhere, we should in most cases have a listing for it in the lowest level destination article. If a place such as Batu Caves is worth mentioning in the travel topic, it is probably also worth mentioning in the destination article, and it is there readers should look for the details (exceptions include travel topics with a very narrow audience). Make sure there is at least as much detail in the linked article as in the page from where it is linked (a search is helpful to avoid redundant listings, in this case it would have revealed that Batu caves in fact exists as a redirect).

--LPfi (talk) 09:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)Reply