Talk:Lviv Voyage Tips and guide

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If you see something incorrect or wanting, please plunge forward and improve the article! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:52, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

There's an adorable BDSM-themed pub in Lviv near Pl. Rynok. I can't remember the name for the life of me, but it should be added. —The preceding comment was added by 88.88.110.191 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

We don't normally sign old comments, but whatever comments you sign with the unsigned template need to use {{subst:unsigned|}} and then the IP address or username. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Since the ugly, long winded and ambiguous 12 hour AM/PM format peculiar to the US is rarely seen in either the Western or Eastern parts of Ukraine, I would suggest we standardise on the shorter, more precise and less ambiguous 24 hour time format for all Ukrainian articles.

To use this standard format, here are some points to note:

Give times in the time zone local to Ukraine.

Always show two digits for the hour and two digits for minutes using a colon as the separator; eg: 09:00, not 09.00 nor 09-00 and not just 09 and never 09:0 or 9:00

Time ranges use a hyphen as the separator between the two times and are unspaced; eg: 09:00-17:30
Where an establishment does not close on a particular day or range of days, write 24h, not 00:00-24:00.
If the establishment doesn't close all week: 24/7

Choose to deviate from this standard, 24 hour format only to follow overwhelming local written usage. Ask yourself: "which format will visitors see in newspapers, on shop doors, and on train schedules?" If the answer is "a mixture", then use our standard 24 hour format.

Abbreviate to the minimum number of letters for clarity: M Tu W Th F Sa Su, especially in listings, but

• spell out if it looks odd or ambiguous in a particular context or when it is part of a named day, eg: "Good Friday", "Fat Tuesday".
• a range of days is shown with a hyphen: eg: M-Th specifies Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday.
• spaces should be left out, eg: M-F not M - F nor M thru F.
• also include the dash for a pair of consecutive days, eg: Su-M not Su M.
• for a list of days that are not in a range, separate the day abbreviations with slashes; eg: when a shop is open on Monday, Wednesday and Friday but closed on Tuesdays and Thursdays write M/W/F 08:30-17:30
• when combining seasons, days or months with time, put the longer periods first. Seasons first, then months, then days and finally the times eg: Summer 18 May-13 Sep M-F 10:00-14:00.
• when listing alternative date ranges (for example, seasonal opening hours) separate the alternatives with a semi-colon eg: Hall of Mirrors 3 May-8 Sep M-Sa 08:30-18:00; 9 Sep-2 May Th-Sa 10:30-16:00. Horror Maze May-Sep M-Sa 08:30-18:00; Oct-Feb F-Sa 10:30-13:00;
• for all seven days, use Daily. Do not use "every day" or "Su-Sa". eg: Jun-Sep daily 08:30-11:00, 12:30-18:00

Use the date format of dd mmm yyyy, eg: 10 Jan 2003.

Abbreviate months to three letters: Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec, especially in listings, but

• if it looks odd or ambiguous in a particular context, spell it out.
• avoid using dates such as 10/1/03, 10-1-03 or 10/1/2003 as this can mean 10 Jan 2003 or 1 Oct 2003 to different people!

By default, years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era (also referred to as the Common Era) and the year is assumed to be AD (or CE).

This means that in the phrase "Stalin died in 1953", it is unnecessary to write either "Stalin died in 1953AD" or "Stalin died in 1953CE".

For years earlier than 1(AD or CE), that year is followed by the two letters BC or the three letters BCE (written in upper case, unspaced, without periods or full stops.

To indicate approximately, use the un-italicised abbreviation c. " (followed by a non-breaking space) rather than circa, ca., or approx.

Eg: "The temple was built c. 700BC"

• year or years to yr
• month or months to mo
• week or weeks to wk
• hour or hours to h
• minutes to min

especially in listings, but spell out if it looks odd or ambiguous in a particular context. —The preceding comment was added by 118.93nzp (talk • contribs) 23:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

Phrases like "Germans, with the help of Ukrainian nationalists, killed most of the Jews" seem to me a bit too one-sided. For instance, some Ukrainians (including top nationalists) were helping to save Jews' lives. Should we mention this? I don't think so, because the article would then become too focused on politics. I think that instead we should just make the text more neutral and less emotional. P.S. I should note perhaps that I don't consider myself a nationalist and don't support this ideology. --Yury Bulka (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

Please go ahead and add whatever you feel ought to be added. --ϒpsilon (talk) 17:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

"Germans, with the help of Ukrainian nationalists, killed most of the Jews" is not one-sided but objectively accurate. However, although the phrase does not state or imply that all Ukrainian nationalists were anti-Semites or pro-Nazi, which would make it one-sided and inaccurate, I can see your point, so let's substitute "collaborators", in place of "nationalists". On the substance, though, Ukrainian collaborators were notorious as major perpetrators of the Holocaust, not only in Ukraine but also as guards at numerous Nazi extermination camps - Treblinka, Sobibor, you name it. If you'd like to mention that some Ukrainians saved Jewish lives, that's also completely fine to state, because it's also true, and it needn't take up a lot of space; even a parenthetical statement such as "(though there were other Ukrainians who risked their lives to save Jews)" would be adequate and fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

This is a travel guide, not a place for propaganda wars. Until very recently, this city was known as Lvov in English. I think everyone understands why Ukrainians don't like the Russian spelling, but this is an English-language guide and the guiding principle on this site is the traveller comes first - not the Ukrainian nationalist and not the Russian propagandist (added: not the Polish nationalist, either). This article has been semi-protected for now against edit warring by an IP user who has used 3 accounts so far - all currently blocked for 3 days - to do nothing but mess with the place names in this article. When the semi-protection is gone, any attempt to mess with it again will be met with an immediate block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

The facts should be well-known, that Lvov is not a recent English name. Yet you are making statements that contradict reality to travellers in the last decade or so. Perhaps you are doing this in error. I suggest you reexamine your beliefs that Lvov is a current or recent English spelling of Lviv. Where did you get this belief? Why do you hold this belief so strongly? What do you know about Lviv, and how many times have you travelled there?

Why did you react so extremely to what could be well-meaning edits? Why are you stereotyping Ukrainians for disliking Russian spelling, that is just not the reality in Ukraine where all people speak Russian? Why have you deleted the more used Polish spelling, when Lviv has long been known as a majority Polish city before WW2? That does injustice to history especially given the forced population transfers and genocide of the Polish that occurred there.

How well do you know Ukraine? 37.167.240.102 21:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I've been a geography buff since 1971 and know very well what names were in my atlases. This isn't a belief; it's a fact. And the idea that a decade is a long time - where the hell does that come from? You're talking about a Polish name that isn't likely to have been used much in Lviv for almost 80 years and complaining that we mention what spelling was used in English until a little over a decade ago? Besides, the Polish spelling is included in the article; just look at it. It doesn't matter how much Ukrainian background I have, but my grandmother was born in what I think is now spelled Pidfilipiye (she called it Potfilipye, presumably the Yiddish name) on the then-Austrian side of the River Zbruch. And you don't seem to be here to improve useful travel information for readers, so I don't think we're going to waste a long time in this kind of discussion. Good day. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for explaining where your position comes from, old atlases that were from another era. Books are just not used that much these days, and atlases are all but extinct. People have been mainly using online maps for a long long time.

When you undid the following edit, "formerly known as Lemberg in German, Lwów in Polish and Lviv in Russian", you also labeled this comment as "vandalism". How is that vandalism? Can we have some higher upper here at Wikivoyage please review this editior?

I see that you have recently made multiple undos to this page, and now you are making claims that "edit warring will not be tolerated"? I suggest you follow that principle yourself.

You are aggressively pushing your own opinion into an article about a place on the other side of the planet, in a country wher they speak different languages that you may not understand, a country that few English speakers understand correctly, and basing it on old atlases in an era of digital maps.

Your background or qualifications are of no concern, this place is impartial and you should be judged by your words and actions.

You are making out of place claims of "you don't seem to be here to improve useful travel information for readers". Where is that coming from? I do not see anything to substantiate that in the least.

The purpose of Wikivoyage is to help travellers today and in the future. Yet you make claims that we should use Lvov because you think a decade or more ago isn't a long time.

The fact is that Lviv was a very Jewish city, but adding the Russian name which was once used in Yiddish as you claim is not the right way to memorialize Jews eliminated by Nazi German horrors. Perhaps it would be appropriate if Jewish people still widely spoke Yiddish, but that language declined quickly. We are supposed to be focusing on what travelers would see and encounter today.

People who know Ukraine simply would know that the idea of Lvov being used commonly in Englsh today is just silly.

You warring over a strange injection of a Russian name as "English" into an article about Lviv is just misguided and terribly outdated.

I also find it strange that you believe that the Polish Lwów is not widely used today. Lviv is close to the Polish border. Many many international travelers arrive from Poland. I think that is another pretty basic thing that anyone who has been to Lviv would probably know.

It is also unwilling help to Russia's colonial war of annihalation of the peaceful residents of Ukraine. That is the most puzzling part, I think anyone should be feeling that this is just wrong, because the war is just plain sinister evil. Russian language should be respected and used in the parts of Ukraine where it is relevant. But Lvov is just not used in English today or in recent history. And we should be looking forward, as we are writing for future travelers not for the memorialisation of old atases.

I hope you can behave more fairly and revert the changes. 88.167.86.168 23:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

No-one is saying Lvov is currently the name that's most used in English. I have no interest in continuing this discussion and suggest you stop trying to impute political motives or any other motive than the traveller comes first to other users, but regardless, I'm done here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

88.167.86.168, I understand why you are angry about Russia's criminal invasion of Ukraine and the death and destruction it is causing, but Wikivoyage is not the place to have those arguments. You are new to Wikivoyage, so you cannot be expected to understand all of our policies. Ikan Kekek is one of our longest-serving contributors, and understands our policies better than most people peopke here. He is also fair-minded, and not here to promote any agenda, least of all the Russian attempt to subjugate Ukraine.

You will have to accept that Wikivoyage policies, developed by the Wikivoyage community over the past 19 years or so, support listing other names by which a place has been known in English in recent memory. I am one of those people who knew the city as Lvov, like Kiev and Odessa, until the Ukrainian names were adopted in English. Ground Zero (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

[Edit conflict] And the reason why I've concluded you aren't here to help improve a travel guide for travelers is obvious: all you've done is mess with names and complain that other users have nefarious reasons for not accepting your revisions. If you actually have any interest in improving a travel guide, check on whether any listings in cities you know need updating for reasons like price increases or add listings for your favorite restaurants or bars if they're not listed. Over and out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also you are wrong that I am angry. You are also most wrong that I am new to Wikivoyage.

I understand that you are defending Iran Kekek because you are buddies here, and well the facts do not matter because I am an outsider.

You hide behind polices, when the fact is that you are injecting your own biases and ignorance of Ukraine. Saying that Lviv is known as Lvov in English today is silly. Putting in old names in the first sentence is even sillier. We write the guide for the future travelers.

You guys need to practice some mental felixibilty. You are defending your errors, because admitting to yourself that you are wrong is mentally difficult. In this case you have also sided with immorality.

My advice to you is get to know that places you write about. 2A01:E0A:9D5:AA20:2CD1:829A:2463:97A7 00:41, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I assure you there are no political motives, the only motives are basic human rights and fairness. I am being as impartial as I possibly can, and actually do not even like Ukraine much myself. I also have a high level of respect for Russian speakers.

I am sorry that I had to expose your gross ignorance, and the resultant misbehavior, but that fact is that your actions end up being political and therefore uncalled for. What is your motive?

I am just saying that Lvov is not used in English, and has not been for a long time. It is not used today when travelling by English speakers.

And that fact that Lvov is there in the first sentence, well that is some kind of attack. And you keep defending this attack, without explanation except to lay bare your ignorance.

The best corse of action is to admit you made a mistake, and undo your warring.

Also I suggest may an administrator please do a review here. 2A01:E0A:9D5:AA20:2CD1:829A:2463:97A7 00:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Ikan Kekek and I are both administrators. If you wish to contact another administrator, there is a list of them here. I recommend that you check their recent contributions to make sure that you are contacting an admin who has been active recently. Ground Zero (talk) 00:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I did research by Googing "Lvov". Looking at where Lvov is used in recent times in English, I see that Lvov had been used by publications from a certain ethnic group which has been propagandized by Russia over the centuries to hate Ukrainians. I mean no disrespect to them and out of my love for them I will not mention who they are. Basically this ethic group had terrible things done to them, by people of many nationalities including Ukrainians, but false and strong Russian propaganda, over 100 years worth, made the Ukrainians out to be far worse then they were (key to Russia's longtime aim to annihilate Ukrainians). As a result of that they developed anti-Ukrainian sentiment and used the word Lvov in English as a way, I believe, to spite Ukrainians. People, let's please put these battles behind us and not bow to the small portions of our populations that are extremists, especially given that the use of Lvov in English may be linked to sad propaganda, misunderstanding and anti-Ukrainaianism. The relationship between Ukraine and this ethnic group should not be an issue, in fact they should be best buddies. 2A01:E0A:9D5:AA20:2CD1:829A:2463:97A7 10:55, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I have posted this at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment to solicit input from other contributors as this discussion is not leading to a consensus. Let's see what others have to say. Ground Zero (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I've heard Lvov a fair few times, even in recent times (especially those from older generations tend to use it more). Keep the statement in the intro. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:59, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, keep Lvov in the intro. I'm an older Canadian who has never travelled in Eastern Europe & Lvov was the only name I had heard until this year.

To my surprise, Lviv wins a Google fight, 38 million hits to 6 million for Lvov. Pashley (talk) 12:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Many older English speakers still use "Lvov" because that was the most common name under the Soviet era, so the name should certainly be included in the intro. This is not a political endorsement of anybody. But yes, it seems that "Lviv" is now the most common English name, so that is what this paged is name, with "Lvov" being a redirect. This is in line with Wikivoyage policy. The dog2 (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the amazing help. You have gone above and beyond!

I was unaware that Lvov was used by older people from North America. These will be people who most likely never have been to Lviv in this millenium, otherwise they would surely know Lviv and probably use it. I have visited Lviv over a dozen times, the first time right after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It is true that long ago Lvov was used in English. I was unaware that there are still apparently people that did not realize the English name change, or its political correctness pretty much everywhere in the world outside of the Russian speaking world.

And just a final note, Lviv is different that Kyiv etc, it's a different part of Europe with a different history. Certainly Kiev etc should be included in their articles. But Lvov, well let's hope that in a few short years the consensus shifts with the passing of time to remove Lvov from English use here due to lack of knowledge of that term. 2A01:E0A:9D5:AA20:2CD1:829A:2463:97A7 18:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply