Talk:Malay phrasebook Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

Bahasa Melayu includes Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia. Bahasa Indonesia is a form of Bahasas Melayu. So this is trying to be a Bahasa Malaysia phrasebook. Just read the wikipedia entries on these dialects.

I don't need to read Wikipedia entries. I am a Malay speaker, and also know Indonesian. The two languages are closely related but not the same, and this is a Malay phrasebook, not an Indonesian phrasebook. If you think the two languages are totally the same, you don't know them very well. And Bahasa Malaysia is just another name for Bahasa Melayu. Just so you know, it's also usual for new posts on "Talk" pages to be put at the end of the page, not the beginning, and for them to be signed with four tildes (the ~ key). Yang ikhlas, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:33, 2 May 2011 (EDT)

There are too many Indonesianisms in this page. I think it'll require a (native) speaker of Malaysian Malay to remove these all. (WT-en) Meursault2004 04:10, 3 Jun 2005 (EDT)

No surprise, the two were separated only a couple of weeks ago. Please fix it up as much as you can! (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:15, 3 Jun 2005 (EDT)

User:(WT-en) Dekoelie and others have done a lot of good work to fix up the phrasebook, so I've removed the warning now:

Native speakers out there, please confirm if you think the phrasebook is OK now. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:07, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'm not a native speaker but was completely fluent in Malay at a 6th-grade level when I used to live there in the 70s and got most of my fluency back after a week of a 4 1/2-week trip in 2003. I speak Terengganu dialect more than KL slang, but I've gotten a start on this and don't think it's really OK yet. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:43, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

Bisa lihat menunya?

Bisa is indonesia. in fact, ironically it's the opposite.

The correct term is boleh saya lihat menu?

there is no -nya either...because when you ask for a menu, you'd be asking for the restaurant's menu and not some onther restaurant's ..

See above — it used to be the Indonesian phrasebook. Please fix! (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:13, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Bisa means "poison" in Malay, whereas in Indonesian, the equivalent word is "bisa-bisa."(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:44, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

A lot of the phrases in this guide is formal. Can we add in informal phrases and put in "inf" before that?

It's better to be too formal than too informal... but by all means plunge forward! (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:09, 26 March 2006 (EST)

I get your point but sort of disagree. I find a lot of this still very stilted and Indonesian-style. I've done some work on it and will probably come back to it soon. Unless anyone finds "awak" too informal nowadays, I'm inclined to replace every "Anda" with "awak" in this phrasebook. English "you" is used a lot, too, though, perhaps especially in KL. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:41, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

I finally replaced all instances of "anda" with "awak," and have been making questions simpler and less formal and adding more content, particularly in the "Eat" section, as eating is always an important and delicious thing for Malaysians. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK, now we have someone claiming "awak" is impolite. Is it really? Also, just how formal do we want the language in a practical phrasebook to be? I've always done fine with "awak," up to and including my last visit in 2003. Has spoken Malay become much more quasi-Indonesian in 10 years? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

This phrase makes no sense at all since the last Queen of England died several centuries ago. The alternative hypothesis that the phrase was intended to refer to the present Queen of the United Kingdom shows a level of ignorance bordering on offensive. —The preceding comment was added by Alistair1978 (talk • contribs) 01:46, 23 October 2019‎

Oh, come on, people use the phrase "Queen of England" all the time. Here it is in The Guardian yesterday. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

If your sense of humor is so far from the surface that it takes offense at trivialities...I mean the whole point is to make a joke. You want to make everything a dry recitation, and that's not what this guide is about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

I've heard both terms being used to mean "turn" (as in the verb). Does anyone know what the difference is, and which term you should use when giving a taxi driver instructions?

@Chongkian: As a Malaysian, could you provide some advice on this? The dog2 (talk) 06:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

I always heard and used "pusing", both on the East Coast and in KL. Where did you hear "belok" being used, and what does "as in the been" mean? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

At least in parade commands in the Singpore military, they mean different things. Belok is used to command the contingent to turn, while pusing is used when you're supposed to turn on the spot. So in other words, belok kiri and belok kanan make sense, but belok belakang does not. It's always ke belakang pusing. The dog2 (talk) 07:27, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

And that was a typo. I meant "as in the verb". I'll fix it now. The dog2 (talk) 07:30, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

I see. I don't ever remember seeing a parade in Malaysia, which makes sense, since I spent most of my time in a kampung. I don't remember hearing "pusing ke belakan", either, though, as opposed to "(per)gi (ke) belakan". I'll be interested to see what Chongkian says, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hello The dog2, Ikan Kekek. "Pusing" or "belok" is acceptable as it brings the same meaning. The meaning is slightly different depending on the use of the word in the verse. "Pusing" is defined as turn as well as circular or cyclic movements. You may feel a bit confused by the lack of use of the word in your community but in some states, I find that people also say "pusing kanan" instead of "belok kanan". In conclusion, both are usable. Pusing kanan in PRPM. Pusing definition. Belok kanan in PRPM. Hopefully it'll distinguish all confusion.CyberTroopers (talk) 10:59, 9 December 2019 (UTC)`Reply

Terima kasih, CyberTroopers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the explanation. Now that makes sense. The dog2 (talk) 14:26, 9 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

I have asked several editors from the Wikimedia Malaysia user group to be involved in this discussion, including those from Peninsular Malaysia and East Malaysia to get a better overview on this matter. Chongkian (talk) 00:18, 10 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Is it really "oh-GOOS"? Or was that a carryover from when this was split from the Indonesian phrasebook? I remember "OH-gohs" or maybe "OH-guhs". It was also called "bulan lapan" ("month 8") in my kampung. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:53, 21 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

Do you think we should have a Kelantanese phrasebook? Or maybe Kelantanese and Yawi? The thing is, people in Kelantan don't expect foreigners to speak their dialect. When I used dialect words in Kota Bharu, I sensed that people thought I was making fun of them, so I explained that I used to live in a kampung (village) in Terengganu, and Bahasa Terengganu has the words I was using, too (it's very mutually intelligible with Bahasa Kelantan, though the accent is quite different and there is some difference but quite a lot of similarity in vocabulary). I haven't been to Southern Thailand, but from what I understand, Patani Malays do expect visitors to speak Yawi, and to my knowledge, it's very similar to Kelantanese. There are major differences in pronunciation and significant differences in vocabulary between standard Malay and Kelantanese, but you rarely actually need to know Kelantanese in Kelantan, nowadays, or at least not in Kota Bharu (probably inland somewhere). As an alternative, we could cover differences in pronunciation in detail in this phrasebook, but again, people in Kelantan will not expect foreigners to try to use their accent and are likely to consider imitating their accent to be disrespectful. Kedah also has different pronunciation: Words with "a" at the end are pronounced as in "father", like in Indonesia, and not with a schwa. That can be specifically mentioned. I do not know local dialect words except in Terengganu and Kelantanese dialects, which I learned during my 2 years of childhood in a village in Terengganu that was about half people from Kelantan (and one family from Southern Thailand). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:48, 1 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

I made a few pronunciation notes. I gave Bahasa Terengganu one mention, but only in passing. I don't think there's much reason for me to mention that in that dialect, ang/an/am = ang, ngg = g and ngk/nk/k = k. The result of that is that lokan (clam) is pronounced the same as longkang (drain) - both are pronounced "lokang" in Bahasa Terengganu. Another fact about Bahasa Terengganu is that final ar and au are both pronounced as a long "a" as in "faaather", so when we were introduced to kain limar (a beautiful type of traditional cloth), we thought it was being called "lime cloth", as "limau", the word for "lime" is pronounced exactly the same as "limar" in Bahasa Terengganu. But sadly, I think most of that knowledge is now historical, and no-one will really need to know it. By contrast, Bahasa Kelantan is presumably still alive and well, due to local pride and lots of support by their state government. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:28, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Does anyone still use those as alternatives to Januari, Februari, Mac, etc.? If so, we could mention it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

This was in hidden text in the article:

This should say "Alright, I'll take it."

However, Malay doesn't work that way. You are not going to literally take (ambil) a room. And many Malay sentences are much briefer than English sentences. I think the followup to "Baiklah" would be the next line: "I will stay for ____ nights". Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:43, 26 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

No, you've misunderstood my comment. "Alright, I'll take it." is a standard phrase in our phrasebook template. Whether or not the target language (in this case Malay) has a literal equivalent of the verb 'to take' meaning 'rent' doesn't matter; we just need a sentence that the traveller can use to indicate they're happy with the room and wish to rent it. If "Baikah" is sufficient to convey that meaning, then the English should probably read something like "Alright [, I'll take it]." or "Alright (indicating you wish to rent the room)".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

There are some languages that have no equivalent to some English constructions, and I think it's important for phrasebooks to be flexible enough to change the suggested standard wordings so as not to be trying to stuff a round peg into a square hole. If you think it's really more helpful to travellers to combine "Alright" with "I will stay for _____ nights", we can make the sentence longer. Would you prefer that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Works for me, as it has the same result.

I'm mainly concerned that "Alright" has so many possible meanings, that it ultimately doesn't mean anything by itself in this context.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Good point. I'm fine with the result, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Malay sphere.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Unclear whether it'll be kept or not. We might need to upload this locally, though I think the file description might be tweaked to be more neutral in regard to Indonesian as not quite a form of Malay. You can for now see my further comments in the linked discussion thread on Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:39, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Pretty low chance of being deleted I'd say. One user with an obvious nationalist agenda wants to delete; everyone else so far has argued to keep. Are you able to keep an eye on the progress of the discussion in case we need to quickly upload locally?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:01, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Sure, but I'd caution that files can be deleted regardless of how the discussion seems to be heading, sometimes for reasons never brought up in discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Bloody what? That sounds like a major flaw for a wiki.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:37, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, it's unlikely to be deleted per c:COM:INUSE and c:COM:SCOPE. No-one but the nominator has argued for deletion and it looks like they might be banned for incivility. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

They have been banned for 1 week. I don't think this file will be deleted. If it is, we can have it undeleted temporarily to upload it locally, but that doesn't look like it'll be necessary. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Factual Fact Factor has now been indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet of a globally-locked user and the few "deletes" are by new users who think Wikipedia is the only WMF project (this mindset is quite frequent and habitual on Commons, especially those who only edit Commons to only improve their home wiki). I've requested a global lock and hopefully an admin closes that discussion soon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@CyberTroopers: Hi there. I just wanted to ask you if there is a difference between these 2 words. In Wiktionary, "ca" is listed as a word for "tea" in Malay. Is that a mistake or are there situations in which "ca" will be used instead of "teh". I have always used "teh" whenever I've needed to speak Malay, and I've never heard "ca" being used by a Malay speaker, but I don't rule out the possibly that it's used in some dialect of Malay I've never encountered. The dog2 (talk) 17:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've never heard anything but teh, but I don't know what East Malaysian or some Sumatran dialects might be like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Pinging Chongkian as well in case he has any comments. The dog2 (talk) 15:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply