Talk:Somalia Voyage Tips and guide

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Somalia/CIA World Factbook 2002 import. -- (WT-en) Huttite 06:27, 28 Mar 2005 (EST)

Anyone mind if I reword the warning as follows? For some reason the current text sound a little off to me:

	WARNING: Somalia is most emphatically NOT a tourist destination and not safe for independent travel or sightseeing. Those visiting for business, research, or international aid purposes should consult with their organization and seek expert guidance before planning a trip.

(WT-en) Maj 09:50, 18 October 2006 (EDT)

Sounds better to me  :) (WT-en) Cacahuate 06:24, 26 October 2006 (EDT)

Together, "the present and future" are plural, so we use the plural form, "don't", not "doesn't". I rolled back a change that turned it in the wrong direction. --(WT-en) Evan 15:08, 15 November 2006 (EST)

I have sources that Somaliland is safe for tourists

Here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7365002.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4491257.stm

And i am deleting that

Yeah, neither of your sources really say that or show that. In fact it's pretty hard to estimate safety for tourism in a place that tourists don't visit. I'm not worried about what you deleted though really, it's more stable than the rest of the country, and anyone heading there will already know what they doing – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 19:24, 30 December 2008 (EST)

interesting article: http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates/ —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 84.75.20.24 (talk • contribs)

conspiracy theories, oh yes —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 118.90.106.170 (talk • contribs)

I see that the current list of regions is incomplete. There are several way to go about dividing the country given the state of anarchy, but I've gone with geographic/historic divisions which roughly correspond with politics. There is a high quality map on WP that is updated to show control. Here's what I propose for the regions:

• Somaliland - a given, due to its de facto independence. There is a dispute over its eastern boundary, but I'd use the one shown on the map and include the blue area.
• Puntland - historic region on the horn and autonomous
• Central Somalia - not sure about a name, but this area seems to be distinct within the country as the Galmadud and Gedo regions
• Southern Somalia - home to Islamists and the capital Mogadishu and where most of the civil war has taken place

I'm not sure about the exact location of a boundary between the Central & Southern regions, but a good guess would be the river with a straight line running from Jowhar to the coast (since it parallels the coast). Just a guess. (WT-en) AHeneen 23:19, 20 January 2010 (EST)

Drawing a line is nearly impossible as clans, the federal government, Ethiopia and other forces keep winning and losing territory. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 14:47, 15 March 2010 (EDT)

I just went ahead and used an admin division boundary for the line between Central and Southern, and have now implemented this new hierarchy. Note that I didn't do away with the Gedo article, since it's pretty fully written. I left it as a subregion of Southern Somalia. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:34, 12 May 2010 (EDT)

These look like things to see or places to buy things, mostly in Mogadishu. I don't think that's what belongs in the "Do" section for a nation, but what should be here? Is there anything much that's even remotely safe to do in Somalia, not including the de facto independent country of Somaliland? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 9 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

Over 4 years later, I haven't changed my mind. I will move the entire content of "Do" here if no-one replies within a couple of days or before the next time I come here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 25 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

What do you all think of this edit? Baardheere, I solicit your explanation, since you made the edit. Has safety in Khatumo drastically improved, with Wikivoyage not having kept pace with developments there? (If so, that wouldn't surprise me, but it needs to be documented on this talk page.)

Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:47, 29 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

It isn't if we consider Somaliland independent, which we do per Wikivoyage:Be fair#Political disputes and Wikivoyage:The traveller comes first. So I think we should remove that. Any counterarguments? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Somaliland is treated as part of Somalia on the map. That's inconsistent with Wikivoyage:Be fair. Would anyone like to fix the map, so that it shows a situation closer to actuality? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Some of the colors on the map also don't match the colors next to the region names. 11:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: @Ikan Kekek: I don't think "be fair" or the traveller comes first guideline necessarily apply to Somaliland. There are many areas claimed by Somaliland which are entirely uncontrolled by Somaliland, even regions and cities in the heart of Somaliland such as Cayn and its main city buuhoodle. Even cities supposedly under de facto control such as Las Anod regularly have videos such as the following appear : https://twitter.com/KingYusufYusuff/status/1240628341025189888

The above video can be translated as "what we truly believe" and proceeds to sing the Somalia national anthem in las Anod, a supposed de facto SL city.Trunschlowetr (talk) 15:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for this information. I note that the map in our article doesn't list Las Anod as part of Somaliland but instead as part of Khatumo. I'm not an expert by any means, but my understanding is that the Somaliland government has control over Hargeisa and Berbera at least, and that traveling to those two cities is a very different proposition from traveling to, say, Mogadishu or Kismayo. Is that correct? How would you suggest we organize the articles? —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Firstly Buuhoodle and its environs (Buuhoodledistrict/Cayn) should never be termed Somaliland as it quite xenophobic to the concept - it even has a monument commemorating its anti-SL stance. Somaliland should be limited to the provinces of Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer (excluding Cayn), as all the others seem to have either a permanent or intermittent counter entities. At its most expansive, you could include western half of Sanaag province and eastern half of Awdal province and in Sool province, only Las Anod and places westwards of that. Trunschlowetr (talk) 11:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

What would you do with the rest? Would you propose a different map, and if so, with which boundaries? I realize that may be a very difficult question if boundaries are in flux, with areas changing hands back and forth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:40, 28 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

The most influential figures in the contested area is arguably tribal leaders, the most influential of whom (Jama Garad Ali) has recently reaffirmed his disassociation from Somaliland; however he has not suggested an alternative administration. As such the situation is quite complicated and possibly even deliberately ambiguous. Trunschlowetr (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you very much for the update. I'm not sure where this leaves this travel guide in terms of how we can best assist travelers in our coverage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 28 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

The current banner is kind of drab. What about these alternatives? —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:09, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I prefer #2, then #4, then #3. I guess #5 is a market, but it's really hard for me to tell where it is except somewhere in the Horn of Africa. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Seeing no other responses, I've edited the article to use option 2. I believe option 5 is an Eid al-Fitr celebration, but I agree that's not very obvious from the photo. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:48, 22 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'm very confused by some of the unilateral changes in this article. I appreciate the work of User:Dowrythubnuy, but before you change the contents of Somalia#Regions, you should make a proposal on this page, explaining your reasons for proposing the change, and also defining the borders so that the map can be edited if a consensus agrees with you. Unfortunately, we are going to have to revert your edits for now unless we can get quick agreement behind them and get the map changed. So please make a proposal before, keeping in mind that the prime directive of this site is the traveller comes first. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

OK, we'd better discuss the budding edit war by User:Mlekftrgh. What's the justification for this edit? Does it make the article more accurate for travelers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 10 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'll request a CU to see whether these two accounts are the same person (per reason one of "Sock puppetry for the purpose of disruption". While socks aren't banned here, clearly they're using it to be disruptive which is against Wikivoyage:CheckUser. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Done. See m:SRCU#[email protected] SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:32, 10 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: The CU results have been completed by Sotiale and these accounts (Mlekftrgh + Dowrythubnuy) are linked to each other along with a range of other sock accounts such as Midiigarah33, Marjutybhhb, Newmoniccc3, Hodaneeey76, Randomastwritter, Mdnwusrwithhhd, Abwaanrmrke, Hgutjutre, and Iskuulkaban found on sowiki (these are not registered locally). Will block Mlekftrgh per "the secondary accounts will be permanently blocked from Wikivoyage" as this is clearly disruptive. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:59, 10 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Should we revert the edits of User:Dowrythubnuy and possibly the IP address that made one edit before that user and which I think is probably the same user? User:Dowrythubnuy, would you like to explain the reasons for your edits? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:26, 12 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi, apologies for the second account, but at since I clear my cache I assumed it simpler to simply use another account. As for the edits, I thought it worthwhile to mention that areas on the opposite ends of the country also tends to rpoduce remoteness in allagiance to the central government of Mogadishu. I intended to clarify that as well as to pull back on the emphasis on central government region and the aforementioned remote regions by introducing details on middle areas. Alas, some of that's reverted but not a big deal. Dowrythubnuy (talk) 05:20, 12 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

OK, thanks for participating in the discussion. So a big issue is that the new regional structure you created is not reflected on the map. So what I'd like to ask you to do is lay out a proposal, specifying the reasons for the regional structure you believe most helps travelers and lays out the boundaries between each of these regions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:31, 12 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

The new regional structure is kinda fluid, so maybe a definitive border isn't the best solution. But its current existence is undisputed. Nonetheless, I didn't feel too strong about the edits, and as such, maybe you could wait for other's input. Dowrythubnuy (talk) 10:34, 13 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

For the sake of any travelers, there needs to be a map with whatever regional structure we're using, so we have to pick boundaries even if they're fluid. But why and how is your regional setup most useful for travelers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

There isn't a singular regionals structure. It seems like 3, namely, a Faysal Falaalug-led militia typically using the name SSC (Sool, Sanaag Cayn), Khatumo and local Warsangeli sometimes named Maakhir. They typically are active in the region from Buuhoodle until Saaxdheer, from Fiqifuliye until Las Kohrey, and the Boocame region. But I probably can't help you further than that other than pointing you to google for maps bearing those names. Dowrythubnuy (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

If the borders are fluid because of ongoing conflict between militias, how much value is there for travellers in trying to keep up with these changes? I do not think that there will be any travellers who read Wikivoyage going there. It is interesting for "sofa tourism", but not actually useful. We could just indicate that the borders do not reflect current military control, and stick with traditional boundaries. Ground Zero (talk) 13:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Same. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:31, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

How shall we follow up? The current lineup in Somalia#Regions has been the same for a long time; I've already traced it back at least as far as 2016, but the regions map does not reflect it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: Here the mention on the death penalty for homosexual acts was removed. Has that risk went away? "Homosexual acts (for both sexes) are illegal in Somalia" is not a risk to life and limb that warrants a warning box, but the death penalty is, and it should certainly be mentioned. If it has been lifted, that should be told in the running text. –LPfi (talk) 09:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The warning was long, overly detailed, and somewhat hysterical. i don't think that whoever write it was a reliable source. None of the government warnings I read mentioned the death penalty. On further research, it appears that the death penalty has been applied in areas controlled by al-Shabab. Under federal law, homosexual acts are punishable with up the 3 years imprisonment. I don't consider Wikivoyage to be a reliable source for information like this, so I don't think we have evidence that the death penalty has been "lifted" by the federal government. It doesn't ever seem to have been a law. Ground Zero (talk) 13:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply