User talk:ErwinFCG Voyage Tips and guide

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To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:18, 2 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi Erwin, Just a quick note on changing page names. Looking at your account, you should be able to move pages, as you are already an auto-confirmed user. Perhaps you didn't know that we call it "move" instead of "rename"? To move a page, I have to click on the "more" button in the right upper corner (next to the heart and the star). I'm not a 100% sure it's the same layout for regular users (since I'm an admin), but you should be able to see it somewhere there. Best, JuliasTravels (talk) 10:02, 8 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi Julias, thank you, I see it now indeed! I will keep that in mind for the next time! --ErwinFCG (talk) 10:06, 8 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi Erwin, thanks for the attention. According to our current policy, for an article to go Guide, it must "(...) give you different choices for which linked destinations (i.e., the 5 to 9 item cities, subregions, and other destinations lists) to visit (all usable status or better), and information on multiple attractions and things to do. Listings and layout closely match the manual of style, and all the standard sections have well-developed prose. All important ways to get in are detailed, along with some suggestions for where to go next, with one-liner descriptions, and thorough information on getting around. At least 2–3 good-quality photos accompany the article; preferably showing famous or important attractions".

About Oldambt, let's count: 5 See listings (all windmills), 3 Do, 1 Buy, 3 Eat, zero Drink, 10 Sleep (that traditionally go on city-status articles, not the region-status ones). The information on Get Around does not seem thorough to me. Check out, for instance, the articles on Singapore or Hong Kong to see what "Guide status" means. Please check out Amsterdam as well, and pay attention to the fact that its article, as complete as it may seem, is not Guide yet, either.

Last but not least, thank you very much for your contributions, they're very welcome! Ibaman (talk) 15:36, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

But Oldambt is a city article, which makes sense for several rural destinations combined into one article. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:46, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Oldambt indeed is a city article, so the city article requirements apply. That said, I think the article would still at the very least need content in Drink before it can be upgraded to Guide, it would also be nice to have something in Connect (free Wi-Fi somewhere?) and — if possible — one sight that isn't a windmill even as we are in the Netherlands :)

Amsterdam is not a comparable example; a city which is so big it's divided into districts can have a great article but if even one of its districts is an outline or stub the main article remains only usable. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

• Oh well. You are both correct, Hobbit and Ypsilon. Geographically, it's a region, bigger and more spread than a big city, but article-wise, it's a city; city article requirements apply. Ypsilon has summarized brilliantly why this article is not Guide yet. Rotterdam is Guide, Amsterdam and Delft are not. What I really wish is to clarify things for our fellow Wikivoyager ErwinFGC, and help him contribute constructively to our travel guides. Ibaman (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

No problems. Also, thanks to Erwin for writing up the Oldambt article from scratch and for other contribs to different articles. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:55, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, ErwinFCG... this policy is silly in practice, when it comes to rural, off the beaten track villages in the Netherlands (and elsewhere). No traditional travel guide even mentions a place like Oldambt, and no-one needs anything more than the information in this article to visit it. However, our community loves following the guidelines it set for itself to the letter :) The drink section often makes no sense in rural Dutch destinations, because all the local places double as eat- and drink establishments. If you can find any info on a proper "bar", use the section. If not, it's perfectly fine to delete the Drink section and mention in the Eat-section that some of the restaurants/diners double as bars. Make sure to mention the suitable places in the listings too. You're doing a great job, don't get discouraged. It's always easy to point out flaws - definitely easier than to help fix them ;) Comparing this article to huge, complex places like Singapore or Hong Kong is hardly helpful, and even large cities like Rotterdam or Delft are a completely different thing. I've written dozens of articles for small towns in the Netherlands. I left most of them simply at usable status to avoid this discussion. Keep in mind that the whole "status" thing is mostly an internal community affair. I sincerely doubt users pay that much attention, and besides, they can judge for themselves. It's not as if they'll find a more elaborate English language guide on Oldambt (or the Netherlands as a whole!) and all those printed guide books call themselves "guide" too ;-) Keep up the good work! JuliasTravels (talk) 18:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, mad props from my part as well for writing a good article on a rural area, as for various reasons our coverage tends to skew urban and coverage of some rural regions (even ones that have millions of visitors like the East Frisian Islands) could do with improvement to say the least. A thing that can go into the "drink" section of a rural area (if it is non obvious) is whether the water is drinkable and if there are any locally famous drinks, whether alcoholic or not. At any rate, I hope this discussion isn't overwhelming as the exact definition of what a "guide article" is cannot apparently be summed up the same way as the article status description does. And it really mostly matters when trying to nominate an article for Destination of the Month, Off the Beaten Path or Featured Travel Topic and even there being "guide" isn't the only criterium. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:38, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you all for the clarifications! The reason for me to make this (and Noordenveld, Westerkwartier, Midden-Groningen) a 'city' article rather than a 'region' is that a region would suggest that there will be more articles of the 'cities' within the region. In this case I think that would not be useful, and it would be clearer to have the municipality (including its dozens of villages) as the lowest hierarchical level (i.e. city). In Groningen province earlier already articles had been started on very small villages (e.g. Pieterburen and Uithuizen). I think also in that case it would be clearer to have one city article (e.g. Hogeland) because as a travel destination it would function as such.

In any case, thank you for the information, and I understand that it is not a guide article at the moment (which is probably almost impossible because the region/city is quite small and not very touristic). I will continue to create articles like this, if that is okay, and hope to cover the entire province of Groningen. --ErwinFCG (talk) 07:26, 17 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Nope, it's certainly not impossible for a small city to be at guide status. How informative an article needs to be before it can be considered a guide very much depends on how large the destination is. A good rule of thumb is that if there's (practically) "nothing more to say" about a small destination, the article is very likely a guide and, in this case, if there really are no noteworthy places to drink, then just write it in the article. Have a look at Hyden for instance, which was featured on the Main Page as Off the Beaten Path last autumn, or Childs, or Nauru. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:49, 17 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hey Erwin, I've got two things.

• Firstly, thanks for you additions to the articles in the Northern Netherlands that I've worked on and starting the many bottom-level articles for Groningen. I'm impressed by the progress you've made on them.
• Secondly, know that you're not the only Dutchman here (I'm assuming you're Dutch based on your username ;)). Though I may not live in the Northern Netherlands, I do have quite some friends up north. I'm happy to join you if you need some help. I'm currently working on Luxembourg articles, but I may need something to get my head off of things when I get stuck. I'll be following the discussions about the Northern Netherlands articles on a distance. If you need some help, then I'm available. Just notify me on my Talkpage if you need me.

Any way, keep up the great work :D
-- Wauteurz (talk) 16:07, 23 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi Wauteurz, thank you for your kind words! Whenever I find some time I will continue on those articles. I started mainly because the article on Groningen (province) was almost exclusively on the city, with a suggestion to 'see the Ommelanden' without any explanation, so I thought some more detail may be useful! I will keep in mind to notify you when I need help, thanks! --ErwinFCG (talk) 06:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hey Erwin, no worries. I've mostly been working on Drenthe and Friesland articles, and seeing your name all over recent changes with Northern Netherlands articles gave me the idea of pointing out to you what I do and that I exist in the first place :). I actually remember reading the Groningen article with the See the Ommelanden-suggestion and thinking to myself that that could be largely expanded upon. Again, if you need me, leave a message on my talk page or mail me (link in the left sidebar when on my page, it's there by default).
-- Wauteurz (talk) 15:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

PS. Seen Talk:Groningen (province)'s Articles by municipality/region subject: I'm looking into getting some Luxembourg maps made too. If you haven't sent in a request to users that make them yet, then have me know - I'll pass it on to someone useful for you :)

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Awesome work on Dutch and Indonesian articles over the last weeks! It's also nice to see that we have one more Wikivoyager onboard who knows mapmaking. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you Ypsilon! The mapmaking is amateur work, but it's good to know that it is appreciated. I will continue to try to get more Indonesia articles to usable or guide status! --ErwinFCG (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Sampurasun kang Erwin, Salam kenal saya Yusup dari Sukabumi, mohon kerjasamanya.--Uchup19 (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2017 (UTC)Reply