User talk:Vkem Voyage Tips and guide

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To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.--ϒpsilon (talk) 08:49, 13 June 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your contributions!

There is however a problem with your edits concerning Finnish taxis: information on a company should be limited to one or in some cases a few articles. Having information on the same taxi company on a dozen pages will cause much more updating work, and more or less ensure it will get outdated on some of them.

I am also concerned whether the listed companies really are of use in all the towns for which they got listed. Are these the main companies in all those places? Does the aggregator app check the local taxi companies? – And we generally do not list aggregators.

I started a discussion at Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Finnish taxis.

--LPfi (talk) 11:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Please note this discussion. There is a lot of wasted work when the changes are made afterwards.

Listing the same taxi companies in every destination article is no good. They won't be updated everywhere – and it is against our policy. And I note that e.g. for Kaarina, you do not list Taxidata, which by large margin is the dominating call centre.

--LPfi (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

I am going to rollback your edits soon, unless this issue gets resolved. --LPfi (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

I note e.g. that you added Valopilkku in Iniö. I suppose there is only one taxi company on the islands, the number of which already was in the page, but now was put after this app. Why wouldn't a visitor call that company directly? --LPfi (talk) 16:56, 31 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Could you please stop claiming that Matkahuolto offers connections. They have no coaches that I know. They provide timetables and some other services. --LPfi (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

I now blocked you for an hour. We need to sort out the issues. --LPfi (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Adding the same company to hundreds of pages is against policy. Where and how the taxi apps should be added can be discussed, but without that discussion the general rule should be followed. --LPfi (talk) 12:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think the individual taxi apps should go in Finland#By_taxi, and we really shouldn't fill each and every article with such detailed information. Individual cities and municipalities can have information about local taxi companies. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Ypsilon: Yes. We don't want to have to update a zillion articles when their names or urls change. I have still been reluctant to outright delete them, other than in places where there are a few local businesses that could all be listed instead, as the apps cover only part of the country and it may be useful to know that a particular one works for a certain destination. Without talking, however, I have no idea whether the additions are done for places where the app truly works, or whether there are places where the business claims it works, but where it has a minuscule market share or only has taxis that have to come from far away. --LPfi (talk) 14:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have checked that the apps should actually work in places where I have addes them. --Vkem (talk) 22:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

As a former sysop at Finnish Wikipedia, you know full well the importance of collaboration with your fellow editors. Accordingly, you have now been blocked from editing for three days per Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks due to your lack of communicativity. You will continue to be blocked for increasing lengths of time every time you edit until you respond to the concerns raised in previous messages on your talk page. In order to continue editing freely, please do so. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Traficom says it does not any more cover purely commercial coach services (the wording is vague), and is scheduled to be maintained "at least to the end of the year".

I wonder whether it is worthwhile to add this service to any other pages than Finland, where also its shortcomings should be explained. I tried to find a connection between Karis and Ingå and Matka.fi failed to find any (it could be a Javascript issue, but then a warning is due). I don't know how the corona situation has affected coaches in Uusimaa, but there used to be several daily coaches along that route, and Matkahuolto finds a few.

Do you know anything about how good the coverage is? That should be described in Finland#Get around and Matka.fi should probably not be mentioned anywhere else, except perhaps where it is usable with specific instructions.

--LPfi (talk) 20:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for noting. Google Transit is better these days, but is it okay to mention it instead of Matka.fi? I can add more info how to use matka.fi in places where I have added it. Sometimes it is the only place which has timetables, for example between Ingå and Kirkkonummi it is a good way to find bus+train connections to Helsinki. --Vkem (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for replying.

There are several problems.

By policy we keep aggregators out of most articles, so Google Transit should be mentioned in Aggregators, not in every destination guide. If there is some special reason we might make an exception for individual pages, but that should be explained, and discussed if needed, on the relevant talk pages.

The information should be kept in as few places as possible, to ease maintenance. Sites such as matka.fi, vr.fi and matkahuolto.fi should be discussed in Finland. The latter two have stable domain names and hardy go out of business any time soon, so there is not much harm in linking them from other places, but I think readers can be supposed to have found and bookmarked the links when reading about the country (and they are "official sites" rather than aggregators).

When one of the normal search engines does not work by default, such as when you need to search for "Ingå apotek" instead of "Ingå" on the VR pages or "Kemijärvi ABC" instead of "Kemijärvi railway station" to find connecting services on the Matkahuolto pages, or when Matka.fi finds regional services not found at Matkahuolto, that's when these national engines need to be discussed on individual destination pages. Local transport, such as the municipal bus pages of Hämeenlinna, is always relevant.

So yes, when there are local quirks in how to use the best route planners or timetable engines (or some usually good one does not work well), by all means tell about them. "Public service obligation traffic" should be explained in Finland#Get around. But the information for Finland needs not be repeated, unless not doing that would give undue weight to a site needed only for special cases.

--LPfi (talk) 08:19, 7 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I see. I try to make the information more detailed from now on and follow those guidelines. --Vkem (talk) 06:55, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

It seems your recent edits of Driving in Finland are partly copied verbatim from other articles, with other authors. Although reusing text is allowed, duplication should be avoided and original authors should be attributed. Please do some dummy edits with short explanations and links to the article versions you used. --LPfi (talk) 21:39, 13 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I see that you added some taxi businesses to Sweden and to a lot of destinations in the country. Please, if the businesses work country-wide, explain that and when they are worthwhile in the country article and leave the destinations alone. If you know the situations locally, give tailored local information. Don't just throw in identical listings in many articles.

I'd be glad to discuss how these things should be handled, and probably we should invite others to discuss the issue, but without communication I cannot know why these listings should be handled in the way you are doing it. And I have no idea of whether the listings are relevant in the places where you add them. I suppose you are using the business's lists of where they are active, but they probably don't tell where they are a worthwhile option.

(I note you are probably doing the same for several countries. The same applies.)

–LPfi (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I see. So we can discuss how we should do when some taxi operators say that they have businesses in specific cities, and that taxis are able to ordered. If there are no other options yet told, would it be good that at least some options are adviced, at least link given to taxi section of nation page? We can invite others to discuss what to do when there are empty information in cities regarding taxis and only nation-wide operators are available in those places. I think that having empty information is not good, at least there should be a link to nationwide sub section of taxi info then to give people advice what services could work in those specific places. --Vkem (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think people looking for taxis should at first read the country page to know how you are supposed to find taxis. If the way to get a taxi is to find a taxi rank at the market place or railway station, I would not suppose to find that info in every destination article (a useful taxi rank with odd placement should probably be mentioned though). The same with our situation. If there is no obvious way to get a taxi and information is lacking on the destination page, then you check the country page and perhaps the region page for regional details. No need to repeat that information.

If there is a local taxi business, but some national company also claims to cover the destination, perhaps with taxis coming from far away if they happen to have little else to do, then mentioning the latter is bad, as the traveller otherwise might ask at the bus station and get the number to the local business.

The nature of the national companies, their relevance in the worst served regions they claim to cover, their relation to local companies, and possible pitfalls, are questions that should be discussed on the country page. Just mentioning the company is not enough.

Our policy is to not repeat listings in all relevant pages. Instead we have them only at the most relevant one, perhaps giving a link from some other places if the most relevant page is non-obvious.

There might be points that I have not come to think of. That's why I suggest a discussion, and I think other wikivoyagers should be invited by a message on the travellers' pub. Without that discussion and a consensus on changing practice I am very uncomfortable with your adding listings as I see it contrary to our policy.

–LPfi (talk) 10:23, 22 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I see. So we can have a discussion what the policy should be regarding the national companies which have local operations in specific cities. At least in Finland, national companies have in practice usually a good coverage of the regions they claim to have coverage and I think that mentioning them in those specific regions that they serve is useful. But when it comes to having a coverage in whole province, I understand that mentioning them in all municipalities of that province may not be necessary. I suggest that there would be a link to taxi section of province in the municipality and town pages, to help people find the provincial operator of taxi. Regarding the national taxi operator issue, I think that a discussion what we should do with them would be good. Pros of national operators are that they often have handy smartphone apps helping to order them, being easier than calling the number of small local taxi company, phone calls may be difficult if English is not a native language and addresses are in local language. It would be in interests of local taxi companies to give them preference, but I think we should think practically and keep the interest of travellers first, and not prioritize small local taxi companies if large companies have better ordering process and equal level of service. The apps made to be similar than Uber make the taxi order process clear and give right away the price information of the trip. So I think that the national operators are useful to be mentioned if they have some specific cities they claim to serve and there is no reason to doubt that they would not work in practice. If necessary, I can do test searchs to proof the actual working of the national taxi service apps. I see little harm mentioning the national taxi services, especially if no information about local services is available at all in city or town page, I did not understand what harm would be done if they are mentioned to give additional possibility. National taxi operator info has been largely lacking in Nordic countries Wikivoyage pages and I think that a discussion should be started and then made a decision, if they would give additional advantage for Wikivoyage users compared to local taxi order numbers. So if you know how to begin a process of discussion about possible change of practice and get a consensus, please do it. --Vkem (talk) 00:33, 23 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

If you can do some tests, that would be nice. I am especially uneasy about rural areas with few taxis: if most of the cars are unreachable by the app, using it may mean having to wait for unreasonably long. Even in places like Pargas, there have sometimes been no taxis available at all (all occupied). In smaller places you more or less have to have dominant market share to be able to provide adequate service in "rush hours" (whatever that means locally – school ending?) –LPfi (talk) 07:15, 23 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have made test searchs using Menevä app and 02 Taksi app and rural service is acceptable in most cases, they probably use local taxi companies when they seem to have short order times even in small municipality centers. For example in Huittinen, tested it yesterday and it gave arrival times 5 minutes in town center, 20 minutes in village, the service offered was regional operator Taksi Länsi-Suomi. If you like, you can try 02 Taksi app to do some tests how fast the taxi should arrive. https://02taksi.fi --Vkem (talk) 07:47, 23 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

So it seems we continue this discussion in page Travellers'_pub#National_taxi_services. --Vkem (talk) 09:35, 23 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi, when you create pages make sure to link them to their respective Wikidata items. I've already linked all the pages you've created today but make sure to link future pages Thanks --Nintendofan885 (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

In Turku you wrote that two firms "offer freely accessible vehicle rental services". I suppose the rental itself is not free and I doubt you have to pay to access other companies. So what does this mean, and what is special about these two?

You also say that "Cars can be picked up and dropped off in public car parks." Does this simply mean that these two have their rental cars in public car parks, where you also return them, or does it mean that the cars are scattered around? Or do they pick up the cars and drive them back to their place?

It seems you need a local driving licence to register, which I think makes these not the ones to list. I revert for now.

–LPfi (talk) 05:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Also, to register, you need a code, given in the linked page in Finnish. I don't know how a person with fi-0 would succeed registering. –LPfi (talk) 07:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Are you going to add travel-related content to these articles soon?

Vakka-Suomi countryside, Turku countryside, Merimasku, Rymättylä, Velkua, Raisio, Paimio, Sauvo, Laitila, Somero

If an article doesn't have any See or Do listings, there is no point having it. Adding listings under Slerp, and information in the first paragraph about why the reader would want to visit are also good ways of making an article useful.

Please do not create any more articles until you have added content to these articles. If they remain empty, they will be redirected to other articles. Ground Zero (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

And in some cases, they will probably be deleted. Also, please don't take this lightly, as it really is a lot of articles with no content in them. Not what we want here. I suggest you finish them one by one, and once you've finished, then if you want, create more, one at a time SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:43, 14 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Vkem, you've been here long enough to know that copying from other sources is not allowed in as you did one year back at here in Joensuu from this website. I've copyedited it so it isn't a copyvio anymore. As a former fiwiki sysop (Andre mentioned above), you should know the problems with copying from other sources. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:25, 6 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Vkem, this has been brought up by LPfi and Ypsilon before, but adding a list of smartphone apps to a bazillion articles is against wikivoyage policy. Small towns almost always have local taxi services, and they should be listed. Yes, smartphone apps are popular, but I've lost track on how many times you've added 02 taksi to articles. If this were the case for US or really everywhere, Uber would be listed in every town, giving a less fair choice for local taxi services. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:53, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

If the apps are to stay, I'd appreciate a discussion on the logic by which they are included. I suppose you use the apps or the websites to check that the apps you list can get you a taxi at the place in question, while I have the impression that you don't check what other options there are. I think travellers are better served by checking taxis locally than by trusting an app, which may or may not get them in touch with the main local companies. By not telling how you do the checking, you also don't give other editors a chance to check by themselves. –LPfi (talk) 07:06, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

What I said before, nation-wide apps are best listed in the main Finland article, perhaps in the very largest cities as well, but for other articles I think we should list local taxi companies directly. --Ypsilon (talk) 10:12, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

@LPfi, Ypsilon: Late response, but as someone from the other side, if I were to visit a Finnish town/city etc., I'd be looking at the Finland article first before making my plans. Agree with Ypsilon here. (although I'd almost always be using 02 Taksi since that's the only one I know)SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:27, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply