Talk:Kyiv Voyage Tips and guide

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the food should be better discussed. More objective. I can't do it, because in the one year I was there, I tasted things so horrible, I was glad to go to macdonalds or places that sell "western food" (borshch is great though!)

Max: I've added couple of food items which could be of interest for westeners. Did anyone of you liked Vareniki with sour cream?

I was born in Kiev and lived there for 25 years and think that language situation is not described precisely. I'm Ukrainian, but I consider Russian to be my native language. There is absolutely no any problem if you'll try to speak in Russian to someone on a street for directions, etc. There might be some political tension from time to time between Russia and Ukraine but Russian language is still used by more than 50% of Kiev's population. Even in Ukrainian-speaking Western Ukraine (Lviv) attitude toward Russian language has improved significantly since early 90s.

The author wrote "The red Shevchenko university is famous in whole Ukraine. It's also famous for asking for bribes for everything." I tried to find an unbiased source to confirm this and I have yet to find anything that says this is a corrupt university. Check out the Wikipedia article. I'm going to delete the bribe info for now. We should only add this back in if we can find an unbiased resource that confirms this allegation. (WT-en) Sapphire 19:05, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

I hadn't noticed this, and it might also be a translation issue ("fees"? "donations"?). Thanks for cleaning it up. --(WT-en) Evan 18:44, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

No problem. I've been looking to attend school in East Europe and this would have greatly affected my decision if I'd completely believed it. (WT-en) Sapphire 19:05, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

By accident I found a source to back up the allegation that Ukrainian colleges take bribes, however, no one school was mentioned. I found this information on the Soros Foundation's website. The Soros Foundation was founded by Geroge Soros, the American-Hungarian or rather Hungarian-American (He was a Hungarian before he was American). Soros is extermely active in East Europe and third world nations. His group promotes democracy and prosperous economies in the regions it operates.

Removed the contact "information," Wikivoyage is a travel information site, not an international dating site. (WT-en) Brian Hnatiak

I have just changed this article from stub to usable status. On a second thought, I think the eat and sleep entries need more details and their format should comply with our manual of style. I'm changing the status again now, to Outline, in hope that other contributors will feel compelled to add more details to the article. -- (WT-en) Rmx 13:29, 15 Feb 2006 (EST)

Hiya. I think you could argue for either usable or stub, but isn't outline for when there's just, well, an outline? I thought it was outline->stub->usable->guide->star... I'm gonna go RTFM now... 207.134.56.158 13:58, 15 Feb 2006 (EST)

Thanks, but according to Project:Article_status, stub is "level 1" (no template) whereas an outline has a template and some incomplete info. -- (WT-en) Rmx 14:47, 15 Feb 2006 (EST)

Per our Project:article naming conventions, we use the most common English name for a destination. I don't think "Kyiv" has passed up "Kiev" in the English language for this city. Note we explicitly don't use the official or local name; see Project:Why Wikivoyage doesn't use official names. I've reverted the changes to this article that changed "Kiev" to "Kyiv"; please discuss here before changing back. --(WT-en) Evan 10:12, 1 December 2006 (EST)

I just reverted again; please discuss here before changing it back. --(WT-en) Evan 20:17, 3 December 2006 (EST)

Don't just change replace all occurrences of Kyiv into Kiev, a lot of those are English language local names (like you'll get "Kyivstar" not "Kievstar" on your phone and linking to www.kievstar.net you get some russian spam site, the map book will have "Kyiv Tour Guide" written on it, the university refers to itself as the "National University Kyiv-Mohyla Academy" and so on.

Yes, I tried to recover all the proper names that included Kyiv. Let me know if you see any more. --(WT-en) Evan 20:30, 3 December 2006 (EST)

Hi sorry, am only new to Wikipedia editing. Just to let you know, 90 per cent of english spelling referring to the city name here in town is Kyiv. And the US government has recently agreed to only use 'Kyiv' when referring to the city ( http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory?id=2588280 ). Usage may increase in short time. -- BJT, 26 December 2006, 15:39pm

"Kyiv" is still a long way from becoming more common than "Kiev". -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 08:55, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Google is not the arrguement See Ukriane vs the Ukraine

Is it time to revisit this? Kyiv seems to be the only spelling used in the country, is quite usable outside the country, and the traveller isn't going to win any friends in the city using the Russian spelling? --(WT-en) inas 19:33, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

"the traveller isn't going to win any friends in the city using the Russian spelling"... neither using the Ukranian spelling-) The city (and, effectively, the whole country) is truly bilingual. Personally, I don't see any new reasons that would justify the name change. I have no objections to "Kyiv" either, but it is easier to keep things as they are. For example, most airlines still fly to "Kiev", and the airport writes itself as "Boryspil International Airport. Kiev, Ukraine" [1]. (WT-en) Atsirlin 04:29, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

The criteria for Project:Naming conventions still haven't changed, and as far as I know, Kiev is still the most commonly used name in the English language. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 04:26, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

Possibly. In planning my trip though there, I found that a majority of the English language sites I have been using for planning use the Kyiv spelling. I had a look at the airport website, and it certainly uses both. Kyiv slightly more than Kiev though. Anyway, lets leave it a couple more years and see what happens. --(WT-en) inas 17:41, 8 November 2011 (EST)

I deleted the Tours section that links to a website that organises stag parties (and escorts) as I didn't think it adhered to the external links guidelines. Wikivoyage isn't a dating agency. - user BJT, 26 December 2006

Thank you. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 08:55, 26 December 2006 (EST)

ehhhh.

-It is polite to chat loudly (e.g., in Metro) and wave one's hands.-.... this was listed... I can't imagine it is polite to chat loudly and wave on'es hands... I do it all the time though

The article suggests that you should bring a flash light and toilet paper with you to avoid "surprises". Although I would agree that Kiev and Ukraine in general is still well behind many Western European countries, toilet paper is not an issue and has not been since the end of the Soviet times. This comment could mislead readers as to how developed Kiev trully is. I suggest to remove it.

I agree that toilet paper may not be quite needed, but flashlight is a good idea. I never thought of it myself until I went a year ago with a friend. He read that you should bring a flashlight, and did so. While the apartment we rented was great, the building itself (the staircase) had absolutely no light, and was at best quite dim even during a sunny day. :) (WT-en) Mno 05:49, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

Hello, for some reason the text about TIU hostels was removed from the Sleep / Budget section. Does it violate some Wikivoyage rules or is it just someone's bad joke? I have put it back - please advise if there is something wrong with it, as I am pretty new here and may have made some mistakes inadvertently. Thanks! - Artyom

Dear community, the TIU hostels info has been removed again for no reason and without any explanation - apparently by the same person that was editing the Kiev Lodging Hostel information block, as can be clearly seen from the user contributions history. In our opinion such behavior is quite unethical and childish, if that was done by the members of the Kiev Lodging Hostel team. Please advise. Thanks! - (TIU Hostels Team, March 12, 2010)

This should certainly be looked at seriously. The latest deletion was by anon user with IP 93.74.62.23, and from the pattern, that does look like a competitor, Kiev Lodging Hostel. Messing with competitor listings is viewed very dimly here.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:20, 12 March 2010 (EST)

Thanks for your attention to the problem! Please note also the actions of tampering the TIU hostels website URL and contact email (versions 1414045, 1414073 and 1414112). The URL was changed to the one leading to a page with some ungrounded and outrageous libel (there is no real proof presented to prove any of the points in that text). And this clearly seems to be the work of the Kiev Lodging Hostel team, as the very same text can be found on their Facebook Fan Page (screenshot in case it will be later removed) and their other partner website. Such competition tactics is simply ridiculous and unacceptable. Hope for your understanding. Thanks! -- TIU Hostels Team, March 24, 2010

Mr. (WT-en) Claus Hansen, why did you revert the revision 1467444 and replace the TIU Hostels section content with the incorrect information? The addresses and phone numbers are non-existent, the description is incorrect too - these hostels do not belong to one person, they are not just a one-bedroom apartments, check them out on the Hostelworld.com or Hostels.com booking engine websites and see also the customer reviews left by the people that did actually stayed in those hostels. -- TIU Hostels Team, June 1, 2010

All users please watch this article carefully for dodgy edits from anon users who I think are rival hostel owners changing competitor entries.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:56, 22 March 2010 (EDT)

Seems so. I have removed the Kiev Lodging Hostel altogether, as it seems they are engaging in shady business practices here. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:52, 10 June 2010 (EDT)

Dear Community, the Kiev Lodging Hostel has removed the TIU Hostels entry entirely and placed their info back instead (changes done on 15th of June, 2010). Please respond. Thanks! - TIU Hostels Team, 16 June 2010

Ryan: Why did you remove section regarding www.roomme.net. This web site lists apartments for short term rental in Kiev and other ukrainian cities. It could be helpful for travelers to find apartments descriptions and phone numbers of its owners in one place. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Garyachy (talk • contribs)

See Wikivoyage's guidelines on apartment rental listings for the criteria which must be met before a rental agency listing may be included in an article. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:41, 9 January 2011 (EST)

Does it really cost 230UAH for a monthly pass valid on all forms of public transport?[2] That works out at the cost of 135 journeys, which nobody is likely to make in one month. Which means that a season ticket is actually more expensive than just buying tickets, which seems very silly.

115 journeys. True. It's very silly.93.72.242.63 21:04, 21 January 2011 (EST)

However, if you are from Western Europe or North America, you may find service in restaurants and shops difficult. What does it suppose to mean? That there are not too much english speakers in Ukraine? Say it! (WT-en) Anyone-fun 21:20, 21 January 2011 (EST)

The present version says that the buses arrive at the central station, which is not very central. Does this refer to the central BUS station or the central railway station? If the former, can anyone provide the location? (WT-en) Shep 00:51, 20 May 2011 (EDT)

The page at en-WP was moved from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" following a large, heated discussion. I'm not familiar with all the geopolitics, but I submit that the arguments that resulted in the move there would presumably apply the same here, and that a large discussion here would presumably end in the same result. I therefore propose that we go ahead and move this page, hopefully avoiding all the fuss from there. Sdkb (talk) 23:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

The only factor is which spelling is used more in English. I doubt it's Kyiv. Was that the main argument that was address in the debate at Wikipedia? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:28, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Nevermind, I see it here:

Participants in favor of the move also cited w:WP:COMMONNAME, but made two different arguments. The first is similar to the opposition argument: [preferred spelling here] is the most commonly used variant in reliable, English-language publications and [preferred spelling here] should therefore be the article title. To resolve this, editors presented evidence for their position in the form of style guides, newspaper articles, websites, search trends, and other documents linked throughout the debate. Participants generally weighted style guides and newspaper articles more heavily while raising issues with search engine tests. Given the disputes and commentary, participants did not come to a consensus on what is the most frequent spelling in reliable sources.

The second line of argument by supporters citing COMMONNAME focused on what to do when there is more than one common name. Editors contend that the debate above provides evidence for two common names, and thus (per COMMONNAME) we should consider criteria other than frequency to figure out which name is better. Participants appealed to various policies and guidelines, but the ones brought up most frequently were w:WP:MODERNPLACENAME and w:WP:NAMECHANGES. Editors in support of the move pointed out that these policies recommend using the more recent name when deciding between two common names, and so we should prefer "Kyiv".

In general, participants found the arguments for "Kyiv" stronger than those for "Kiev". Both sides cited WP:COMMONNAME as supporting their position, but editors in support of the move justified their position with a wider variety of policies and rationales. Participants found the COMMONNAME argument advanced by opposes to be weak, and this is reflected in a number of comments as well as the 2-to-1 support-oppose split. Conversely, a number of support rationales were not seriously challenged, and editors in opposition generally did not convince others that their interpretation of COMMONNAME was the correct one. So given the discussion, there is a rough consensus that the article should be moved to Kyiv.

I think w:WP:MODERNPLACENAME is not a reasonable policy to advance in this argument. Kiev and Kyiv are both modern names; this isn't Istanbul and Byzantium. However, to me, w:WP:NAMECHANGES is core Wikivoyage policy and the entire point, in cases in which new official spellings have been announced. But the argument that we should go for the "new" spelling just because it's new isn't IMO reasonable. The only question for Wikivoyage is which spelling is used more in English currently, period, and I think we have a default toward not changing, because a change requires a new consensus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:10, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Киевская телебашня.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:39, 1 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Palace of Sports kyiv.jpg (discussion)
• Головпоштамт (20200624).jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Not visible on the page, but watch out, because "no freedom of panorama" is the basis for deletion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Both Kiev and Kyiv are in common use in English, and common use is shifting quickly to Kyiv. Using only Kiev in the lead paragraph makes this article look outdated when it shows up in search results. (I don't know if this article will show up in a search for Kyiv if that name doesn't appear early in the article.)

After decades of discussion, in September 2020, Wikipedia moved its article to Kyiv (see the decision here). I think we address @ThunderingTyphoons!:'s concern about "too many names in the lead" by moving the Cyrillic versions of the name to Understand. It is more important that readers see the English names of the city they want to read about in the lead. Ground Zero (talk) 11:59, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I support Kyiv as thats whats on enwiki. SHB2000 (talk) 12:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

In the discussion leading to Wikipedia's decision to move its article to Kyiv, it was noted that:

"In general, participants found the arguments for "Kyiv" stronger than those for "Kiev". Both sides cited WP:COMMONNAME as supporting their position, but editors in support of the move justified their position with a wider variety of policies and rationales. Participants found the COMMONNAME argument advanced by opposes to be weak, and this is reflected in a number of comments as well as the 2-to-1 support-oppose split. Conversely, a number of support rationales were not seriously challenged, and editors in opposition generally did not convince others that their interpretation of COMMONNAME was the correct one. So given the discussion, there is a rough consensus that the article should be moved to Kyiv."

Participants cited a significant shift in common usage in English-language sources to Kyiv in 2019, including the BBC, The Guardian, The Economist, Washington Post, New York Times, Associated Press, Reuters, Canadian Press, Globe and Mail, and CBC. Furthermore IATA, which regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in airports, changed in October 2019.

Common usage has already shifted, and it's not going to go back. Wikivoyage does not serve itself or travellers by clinging to an outdated spelling. Ground Zero (talk) 12:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I would be fine with this, but to be clear I have no problem with using the native names (written in Cyrillic) in the lede. This is what nearly all of our Ukraine articles do. I do have a problem with using multiple English spellings, and having all of bold, in the lede. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:30, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Where there are different English versions of place names, we do include them in the lead (Guangzhou, Kolkata, Chennai, Mumbai, Ho Chi Minh City, Iqaluit), even where there are non-Latin names to be accommodated (the latter are not bolded). Readers are looking for Kyiv and Kiev, so they should find them in the first sentence. Ground Zero (talk) 12:43, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I generally support indigenous names until it comes to a point where it's hard to say (Oodnadatta) SHB2000 (talk) 13:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

To make it clear, my revert of the IP was procedural. I support moving to Kyiv, it just needs discussion to work through any objections people may raise. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 13:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'm OK with using the Ukrainian name in Latin transliteration as the primary name, but I'm not OK with moving the Cyrillic or the historical English name to "Understand". As others have stated, they should be in the lede. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Agree. Let's use Kyiv if that's a more common spelling in English (WP uses that name too as mentioned above). But as Kiev hasn't fallen out of use overnight it should be mentioned in the lead together with the Cyrillic transcription of both. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:18, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

https://kyivindependent.com/traveling-to-ukraine-what-to-see-in-wartime-kyiv/ Piotrus (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply