Logo Voyage

Talk:Presidents of the United States Voyage Tips and guide

You can check the original Wikivoyage article Here

    This is not a political forum; please restrict all discussion here to discussion about how best to improve the Presidents of the United States article. Off topic debates, political rants, nonsense poetry, etc. will all be removed as it is added. This is a travel guide and political disputes are utterly irrelevant except insofar as they directly bear upon the experience of a traveller. See Wikivoyage:Be fair#Political disputes for further guidelines.

    Archived discussions

    Portraits

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    Well, I say we should add the portraits, but only put the name in the caption, due to this article's history of political disagreements. I know this is a travel article, but wouldn't the travelers want to know who the Presidents looked like?--JTZegers (talk) 18:31, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Why don't we add more photos of the destinations instead? I think that would be more interesting. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I think most people who will look up this article have an idea what the recent presidents looked like. And for those who do not, there is Wikipedia. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    As discussed on your talk page, I agree with Granger and Hobbitschuster on this. This is how Wikivoyage stands apart from Wikipedia, as a travel guide, not an encyclopedia. Wikipedia does its job; Wikivoyage does something different. Ground Zero (talk) 21:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Do I understand correctly that this is a proposal to display portraits of every president on this page? In addition to the remarks above, which I agree with, that would grossly violate this site's Wikivoyage:Image policy#Minimal use of images guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:07, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    That policy is obsurd, but I'll go with it for the sake of not driving everyone nuts.--JTZegers (talk) 21:19, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    It's not absurd. This isn't Commons, and we don't want a whole bunch of images going past the end of articles on people's browsers, but if you want to try to reargue the consensus on it, do so with something more substantive than a dismissive adjective at Wikivoyage talk:Image policy. Otherwise, a glancing blow at it is not really the best way to engender good feelings here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Ok, I digress. Therefore, I won't put in the portraits, and we will have an "era of good feelings"--JTZegers (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I think there were portraits of all presidents added, only that the first ones were removed before the last ones were inserted. Use the page history if you want to use them for something. –LPfi (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I don't wanna get in trouble, so I'll just let it slide.--JTZegers (talk) 20:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
    [edit]

    I added a link to Space in Eisenhower's blurb, since Eisenhower was the one who started the Space Race. I didn't think it would be necessary to discuss on the talk page for a minor edit like this, but since JTZegers reverted, I'm putting that out here. The dog2 (talk) 22:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Before you edit this page, a warning says:

    Apparently, you didn't know that. This means that you should have asked for a consensus before adding that link. I seriously thought JFK was the one who started the space race ("We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because it is easy but because it is hard"), but apparently not. I now ask, is it OK to put that link back?--JTZegers (talk) 23:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Yes, I know the rule, and I was in fact involved in the discussion that led to the rule. But that applies only to substantive edits. Things like grammatical or spelling corrections, or other minor copyedits don't need to be discussed here. We apply the rule with a modicum of commonsense. So I don't think we need to discuss on the talk page simply adding a link. The dog2 (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Well, I apologize if my comment was a waste of time, I just didn't know the rule wasn't that in depth. However, I am now convinced that that link shouldn't be there whatsoever, because for people who wanna know what the space race was, enter Wikipedia. And @The dog2:, what discussion were you talking about? I'm just curious.--JTZegers (talk) 23:59, 9 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    But people might be interested in visiting sites related to the Space Race, which is part of travel and within our scope. And our article on Space covers those sites. As for the discussion, it's the one above on goals and non goals. The dog2 (talk) 00:45, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I think the link would be non-intrusive and useful for some readers, and agree that there was no problem in that The Dog2 plunged forward in adding it. On the other hand, if JTZegers thinks it isn't appropriate, then there is no problem taking it here either. For the comment on going to Wikipedia instead: should those articles never be linked or read? By approving their creation we implicitly say they can be linked, and Wikipedia can be reached via those articles instead (we don't link Wikipedia inline). –LPfi (talk) 08:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I thought it was a better idea to describe the space race on this article.--JTZegers (talk) 21:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    But you did not suggest that. And I think the link is non-obtrusive, while the Space Race cannot be described in one sentence. I don't think writing a paragraph on it here would be a good path (we'd have the blurbs be five paragraphs instead of five sentences). Linking Wikipedia directly might make sense, but we have chosen not to do so (see Wikivoyage:Sister project links). The Space Race is briefly explained in our Space article, and people can go on from there to Wikipedia instead, if they wish. –LPfi (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Dewey Defeats Truman

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    Ok, let's talk about the 1948 election. It literally says that the upset led to the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline, but should I put down who Dewey was? I just think it could be a little more detailed.--JTZegers (talk) 00:03, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I think it's commonsense that Dewey was his opponent during the 1948 election. The dog2 (talk) 00:45, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Agree with the dog2 here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    For me "won an upset re-election victory in 1948, leading to the 'Dewey defeats Truman' headline" is confusing: why would winning an election lead to a headline to the contrary? –LPfi (talk) 08:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    w:Dewey Defeats Truman; People at the newspaper Chicago Daily Tribune were so sure Dewey would win the election that they went ahead and printed and published it before the result was confirmed. --Ypsilon (talk) 09:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    (indent)It's like Newsweek's "Madam President" prints in 2016, but I think it could be worded better. Dewey's identity is obvious, but the phrasing is so clunky, it isn't immediately clear what the purpose of the sentence is. How about:
    "With a national approval rating of just 36% heading into reelection, the Chicago Tribune distributed newspapers reading "Dewey Defeats Truman" leading to the infamous photo of Truman holding the periodical after his upset re-election."
    This gives enough context to understand what "Dewey Defeats Truman" means, as well as referencing the photo, which is really what makes it such a famous and iconic moment and is currently not given reference. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    The train station in front of which the photo was taken has a listing, so the details could go in the local description of that listing... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:59, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I like that. JTZegers (talk) 15:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I recall reading that that election looked so much like a blowout that they stopped doing opinion polls of it several weeks before Election Day, then were surprised by the results. How many days before the election was that 36% approval rating recorded? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Maybe they stopped doing polling of the two candidates but continued to do approval polls? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:09, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I don't know. That would be odd. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Ikan Kekek It took a bit of time to find that number, and I thought it was from one of the Wikipedia articles about the election however, now I can't seem to find where that percentage was from. I remember that the page/article that it was from at least implied that the approval rating was around the election however, it did not specify the date of it. It was frustrating trying to find such details about the election to write that blurb and it's even more frustrating not being able to find what I already found. We could say "With a national approval rating consistently under 40%" or something similar if we don't want to use an exact percentage.
    I also think that Truman established some organizations such as the CIA, the National Security Council, and the NSA which I think are worth adding to his blurb. They've been strong parts of the US system since their establishment, they're still around, and they are also heavily criticized. These seem noteworthy. At the very least, I think the CIA should be mentioned. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:02, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    The CIA was the successor to the wartime OSS, though:
    On September 20, 1945, President Truman signed Executive Order 9621, terminating the OSS. The State Department took over the Research and Analysis Branch; it became the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, The War Department took over the Secret Intelligence (SI) and Counter-Espionage (X-2) Branches, which were then housed in the new Strategic Services Unit (SSU). Brigadier General John Magruder (formerly Donovan's Deputy Director for Intelligence in OSS) became the new SSU director. He oversaw the liquidation of the OSS and managed the institutional preservation of its clandestine intelligence capability.[66]
    In January 1946, President Truman created the Central Intelligence Group (CIG), which was the direct precursor to the CIA. SSU assets, which now constituted a streamlined "nucleus" of clandestine intelligence, were transferred to the CIG in mid-1946 and reconstituted as the Office of Special Operations (OSO). The National Security Act of 1947 established the Central Intelligence Agency, which then took up some OSS functions. The direct descendant of the paramilitary component of the OSS is the CIA Special Activities Division.[67]
    And here's what w:National Security Agency says: "Originating as a unit to decipher coded communications in World War II, it was officially formed as the NSA by President Harry S. Truman in 1952." I'm not opposed to mentioning them, but I'd be concerned about oversimplifying their origins. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:14, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Given that the OSS was only established a few years earlier, namely for WWII intelligence, I think that establishing the CIA as an integral part of the US government beyond WWII intelligence gathering is important. I think the OSS origin can be given mention, though, as well as the NSA. They were both very new, so although I don't know if these organizations were given a lot of thought beyond WWII, but I do think Truman's decision to keep, consolidate (in some cases), support, and promote these organizations has significance. I agree that we don't want to mislead by implying that intelligence gathering itself was Truman's doing. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:34, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I agree with you that the establishment of these intelligence organizations was important. If it can be summarized in an informative, accurate way, I would support mentioning it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:40, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    If it was sufficiently brief and can be summarised in an accurate and informative way, I'm fine with adding it in. AndreCarrotflower seems pretty adept at creating these kinds of summaries, so would you like to give it a go? The dog2 (talk) 22:47, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Change the rules?

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    Before you edit this page, a warning says that you must get approval before editing a blurb. @The dog2: made an edit to Eisenhower's blurb without approval, adding a link to the space article. However, he has stated that he knows the rules, and was part of the discussion that lead, however didn't know that some people would think that would be unfair to have it only apply to substantial edits. But only substantial edits? I'm sorry, but no. I propose the rule applying to minor edits as well, [with the exception of spelling corrections, grammatical, or punctuation mistakes. Meaning that I propose applying the rule to adding links, changing the wording, etc – later addition].--JTZegers (talk) 20:05, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I think this is one of the classic "letter of the law" vs "spirit of the law" disputes. The point of having that rule in place is so that the blurbs do not get too long, and people do not keep fussing over them. In addition, it also ensures that we can come to a suitable compromise so the blurb doesn't come off as politically charged. If we need to discuss every minor copyedit here, I feel that we'll just be wasting people's time. I just don't see the point of needing to bring it to the talk page everyone you want to correct spelling, grammatical or punctuation mistakes. These are commonsense things, and I don't see how any user acting in good faith can disagree with such edits. The dog2 (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @The dog2: You're missing the point, again. I'm not talking about correcting typos, I'm talking about adding links, changing the wording, etc. However, you're right on the waste of time part of your argument; typos are commonsense things, and discussing them would just be a waste of time. I don't propose that, I propose the rule applying to adding links or changing the wording.--JTZegers (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Generally, changing the wording by a lot will count as a substantive edit. Of course, whether or not an edit counts as substantive is sometimes debatable, but we can and should apply a modicum of commonsense to how we enforce the rule. As for links, new articles are being created all the time, and adding links to the blurb and redirect readers who are interested in that particular subject to the article. In addition, it doesn't lengthen the blurb or lead to a clutter or too much text, so I don't see the point in discussing every single link to be added. Of course, if you disagree on a particular link being added, as always, you are free to bring it to the talk page. The dog2 (talk) 20:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    [edit conflict] Use the rule when you need it. If you don't have the sensibility to know what changes might be controversial, then suggest changes here. If you are sure nobody would disagree with you, then just plunge forward. If you get annoyed feedback, then be more cautious next time. If somebody makes a change you disagree with, take it here, if you don't, then you don't need to make a fuss about it. We don't like rule lawyering. –LPfi (talk) 20:37, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @LPfi:Yes, that's what I mean. And @The dog2:, you're still under scrutiny. To me it feels like adding that link was an example of poor judgement. I'm watching you.--JTZegers (talk) 20:41, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Why do you say it's poor judgement? Someone reading the blurb might well be interested in visiting sites related to the Space Race, and the Space article is where we cover them. The dog2 (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @The dog2:It felt that you didn't understand the rules, but now I know you do. Sorry for being so harsh.--JTZegers (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    [edit conflict] As I wrote above, I find the link unproblematic, not an example of poor judgement. Do you still question the link? Then please make your case there. –LPfi (talk) 20:51, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @LPfi: I see many things wrong with it! The link was, in my opinion, useless, owing to Wikipedia's article on the Space Race. In addition, Wikivoyage only has exhibits related to the Space Race, which brings up my point on the Wikipedia article. I thought the better idea was to describe the space race on this article, instead of putting the link in to the Space article.--JTZegers (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I'd love to have a read through the discussion where the community decided by consensus to implement this rule. To me, it seems to be a violation of our tenet of Wikivoyage:Plunge forward. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Nelson Ricardo 2500:Thanks for your curiosity, it's the one above on goals and non goals. I agree with your statement. It violates the Plunge forward policy, but it's goal is to not violate the Wikivoyage:Be fair act.--JTZegers (talk) 20:51, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I sort of agree with JTZegers here. This rule is sort if useless and it violates the plunge forward policy. If we can't handle that, then page protect it permanently. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:00, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I don't think it's useless at all. Things may have calmed down now, when the article isn't new and Trump isn't president, but for articles that attract frequent not-so-well-though-out edits it is much easier to just revert and cite the rule than try to accommodate the changes, or start an argument on whether or not the addition adds value. Protecting the page is much less flexible, and makes the site feel like ruled by a cabal. –LPfi (talk) 06:48, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Plunge forward is not an invariable rule. For those who think it is, have you actually read the page? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Ikan Kekek is right. The page states directly that "plunge forward" can be or is likely to be impeded on high visibility pages (might apply here) and controversial edits, citing political edits and personal causes (which definitely apply here). Even with the discussion rule, there have been quite a bit of changes made to the article, so it doesn't seem to be hindering progress in the article. On the contrary, I think it makes people think twice about whether their proposed additions are truly necessary and encourages editors to put their energy and focus into creating listings, which are what actually make this a valid topic to begin with. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:20, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ikan Kekek: Yes, I have read the rule, and it means you have the right to edit whatever you want, however, I'll say this again: the rule's goal is to not impede the Wikivoyage:Be fair policy. It's goal is to have the history blurbs not be too long, and to protect against political disputes. "Don't worry about not being good enough"? I'm sorry, but the rule is basically promoting things being good enough, which is clearly against the policy. "Experimenting"? Well, I'll give you that. "Doing what's OK right now"? Once again, that means you need approval before it's OK, which is a waste of time. "Go ahead" before approval? Absolutely not. It violates three out of four principals in that rule, with the exception of experimenting. Besides, looking at my argument with The dog2, it seems he understands that the rule is there to prevent political disputes. But what's the point of that? All you need to do to prevent political disputes is to shut up about recent politics in the first place! It's commonsense, people.--JTZegers (talk) 16:31, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    First of all, plunge forward is not a rule, as in "You must plunge forward!" It's a suggestion. But in order to interpret the suggestion (guideline, whatever) the way you do, you have to have ignored the second section of that page, "...But don't be reckless!!" I suggest you (re)read it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:21, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Proposed amendments to make this rule compatible per Wikivoyage:Plunge forward

    [edit]

    Keep in mind these rules still only apply to the blurbs.

    • Keep applying the rule to substantial edits, but also political disputes, promotional material, and personal causes that went on in American history. Watergate, Lewinsky, Teapot Dome, you name it, we'll talk about adding it.
    • Only add links if you think they are useful, and if someone else disagrees, like what happened earlier, they have the right to remove it. This is inspired by my conversation with The dog2. If you think the link is useful, add it. If you don't know that or think it's unnecessary, don't add it.
    • Expand the limit from 5 lines to up to 5 or 6 sentences. I originally said "1 paragraph", but a good point brought up by Ground Zero is that they don't have to be long paragraphs, so I changed it to 5 or 6 sentences.
    • Keep the consensus part of the rule, for substantial changes to the blurbs, adding certain links, and controversial topics related the first one.

    I guess this is one of those support/oppose conversations now. --JTZegers (talk) 16:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    "1 paragraph" is an imprecise rule that will lead to a lot more time spent editing and re-editing the descriptions. This is not a good use of anyone's time. We are writing a travel guide here, not an encyclopedia. Time would be better spent on writing about places that readers can visit related to this topic. Paragraphs are not limited in length. They can be as long or short as anyone wants. This is a recipe for a lot of squabbling. Ground Zero (talk) 16:53, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero: You got a point, they don't have to be long at all, as long as it's enough to convey the information. Do you support the other ones?--JTZegers (talk) 18:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I think that the "no edits without consensus" rule should continue to apply to the blurbs about the presidents. This is a travel guide. Endless fussing with the blurbs is counter-productive. We are not teaching history here. Adding in "massive" opens the door to spending more time writing about history (and arguing about history) than writing about travel. We don't need to go there. Ground Zero (talk) 18:33, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero: These rules will still only apply to the blurbs. I understand this isn't a history textbook, and treating it like one is a recipe for disaster. I'm trying not to go that route.--JTZegers (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    "Controversial edits" is not a phrase that means the same thing to everyone. Are the existing blurbs really in need of editing? Ground Zero (talk) 18:43, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero: Now you're just pushing my luck. These rules are just there in case they do, and I think some of them could use improvement. These rules are for the sake of everyone, not just me, and I think they're a little too far.--JTZegers (talk) 18:46, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I disagree with allowing edits to blurbs without consensus. I don't think we need to spend more time on them, and I think opening it up will lead right back to endless arguments. But let's see what other contributors think. Ground Zero (talk) 18:49, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero: That's the opposite of what I just said. I'm not saying we should open it back up entirely, I'm saying that we should apply it to political disputes and change the limit from 5 lines to 5 sentences, just so it could meet the Plunge Forward policy, which this rule violates. I've already been involved in three arguments, adding that link, expanding Truman's blurb, and this, this week! The goal with these amendments is to prevent that.--JTZegers (talk) 18:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Plunge Forward is not scripture. This is a reasonable exception created by the special circumstances arising from this article. How long is a sentence? This 1000-page novel has 8 sentences. We don't need a rule to encourage people to write long, complex sentences that are out-of-place in a travel guide.
    Anyway, if you make substantive edits that other editors disagree with, it will just result in your edits being reverted and having to discuss them on the talk page anyway. Given the history of this article, it is better that you get consensus on the talk page before making the edits. If you think improvements are needed, propose them here. But let's see what other contributors think. Ground Zero (talk) 18:49, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero:Ok, here's the last thing I need to say. I understand what it is, and I'll change the amendments to match what you are saying.--JTZegers (talk) 19:02, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    (edit conflict) As far as I know there is no consensus for a "5 lines" rule. I would oppose such a rule as unworkably ambiguous – five lines on one screen may be only one or two lines on another screen. I agree with Ground Zero's general point that we should avoid wasting time on the blurbs. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    We all seem pretty agreeable, opposing the five-sentence part. @Ground Zero:, @Mx. Granger:, and future contributors, I ask you to place your vote below each rule (below). I know this seems unnessecary, but in my opinion, it's easier to move on to the next step (final draft of this) if you do so.--JTZegers (talk) 19:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The point of keeping the blurbs short is that readers shouldn't have to wade through a long, unreferenced biography of a president to get to the travel information. Granger is right that we don't have an absolute quantity limit, but requiring consensus for additions and changes is the way that we can prevent the blurbs from becoming too long. I think it would be better for you, JTZegers, to propose changes here first, rather than try to change the rules without other editors knowing what sort of changes you want to make. The fact that your changes led to arguments in the first place demonstrates the need for getting consensus first. It wasn't the rules that caused these disagreements, it was your changes. Ground Zero (talk) 19:23, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    @Ground Zero:, please. It was actually The dog2's changes that caused the first argument, and I actually asked for a consensus before the second one.--JTZegers (talk) 19:27, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Sorry about that, JTZ. There is a lot to read through here, and I missed that. I don't mean to suggest that you are a problem here, only that given the history of the article -- way before you joined us -- disputes over the blurbs took up way too much time -- much more than they warrant-- and that is why I am opposed to relaxing the consensus rule or expanding the blurbs. Ground Zero (talk) 19:30, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero: Yeah, no problem. No one is perfect. See, you only supported one of the rules, and the reason why you opposed two of them was my choice of words, but that's not a problem at all. It's only your opinion. We're all different sometimes. By the way, "substantial" was already in the rule. But let's see what everyone else thinks.--JTZegers (talk) 19:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Oh, and @Ground Zero:, is that person with no signature on #3 you? If so, add the signature; it's required on talk pages.--JTZegers (talk) 19:41, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I'm referring to the rule at the top of the edit screen: "... any proposed changes to the blurbs must be approved by consensus on the talk page first, before they are made in the article. They are intended to be brief summaries only. Details can be found in corresponding Wikipedia articles. Edits made without prior approval will be reverted. Other parts of this article aside from the historical background blurbs may be edited without restriction." Ground Zero (talk) 19:44, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero: Ok, I'll give you that. But The dog2 said it only applied to substantial edits. I was talking about what he said, not what the article editing screen said. I apologize for the confusion. However, I'm glad you support extending the rule to controversal stuff. We still need more people in the decision-making process, but I'm sure they'll come.--JTZegers (talk) 19:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I don't see a need to change the wording. As I said, we apply the rule with a modicum of commonsense here. And the edit that sparked this off was just me adding to link to the Space article, which does not lengthen the blurb, and does not introduce or remove content. It's simply adding a link to another of our articles for readers who may be interested in that topic and want to see sites related to it. I really don't see why my edit is so controversial. To me, this is a minor edit that is along the lines of correcting typos, and nobody else seems to be so nitpicky about it. But as I said, you are very much free to argue why the link is inappropriate if you feel so strongly against it. The dog2 (talk) 20:16, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @The dog2: I didn't find it to be useful. That's all. As I said way too many times already, there's already a Wikipedia article on the Space Race. That's why it's so controversial. However, there's no need to convince me; I'm afraid I'm already a lost cause and I'm tired of having to bring it up.
    In addition, @The dog2:, what caused this debate was actually my understanding that arguments kept happening despite this rule, and being involved in three of them really wasted my time. I'm doing this for the sake of WikiVoyage, not because you're in trouble, which you're not. I didn't mean to sound harsh. I am not the nitpicker on WikiVoyage; I am the always improving guy on WikiVoyage, who also happens to be a nitpicker. You are free to vote below.--JTZegers (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @JTZegers, The dog2, Ground Zero, Ikan Kekek, LPfi, Mx. Granger, Nelson Ricardo 2500: one question, why does this article exist now, when it was created by Libmod? Wouldn't it have been deleted by now? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:27, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Libmod created a list of presidents severwl years ago. This list was not controversial. The article was substantially created by other editors. Libmod made only a few edits, and I doubt that many of them have survived the very active editing this article has seen. Now, because of the experience with AC, we adopted a more aggressive approach to letting unwelcome editors know that we don't want their contributions by deleting articles they have created. If Libmod were to come back, we would do that with any new articles he created, but I don't think there is any merit in applying this policy retroactively. Ground Zero (talk) 14:38, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I also believe that this article exists because people might want to view attractions related to a specific commander in chief in American history, which I am okay with. This is, after all, a travel guide. However, people spent too much time on the history blurbs, and I think some of them are still too long. I also don't know what Libmod did wrong to have his account shut down. I'm kinda curious about that. I'm talking to you, @Ground Zero:. The rest of you can all convey your thoughts on why it exists now.--JTZegers (talk) 20:32, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @JTZegers: here is that discussion. In short, he created a bunch of low-value articles on places in war zones, wrote stuff that was very politically slanted, and when he was called out, he went full-on into bigotry and vandalism. It was an easy decision. He may have started this article, but it was others who made it into a worthwhile travel article. Ground Zero (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ground Zero:, and his username sounds very poltitical. So there's that too. Anyways, back to why you think my proposals are a bad idea.--JTZegers (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Also, JTZegers, about a month ago, he created an account called Midwestern social democrat, where he created about two or three crappy articles, which were deleted per VFD. Then, on the same day, he created another account called User:Resident of Roberto and using that account, he created Roberto (Illinois). A few hours later, there was a discussion on the pub saying Roberto is not a real town. If you look at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations, there's a full explanation. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── What’s next? Anti-Trump Republican? He’s obviously out of his mind!—JTZegers (talk) 14:35, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    You should also read this edit of his which came in bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:40, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    That explains to me what this dude was doing. Conspiring against people to try and shut down Wikivoyage. In addition, when he was called out, he went out to vandalism. He’s a dangerous man.—JTZegers (talk) 16:44, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Votes

    [edit]

    #1 Keep applying the rule to substantial edits, but also political disputes, promotional material, and personal causes that went on in American history. Watergate, Lewinsky, Teapot Dome, you name it, we'll talk about adding it

    [edit]
    • Oppose. This adds "substantial" to the rule, which is not going to be interpreted the same way by everybody, and creates more room of edit conflicts. I don't oppose extending the rule to the other stuff listed. Ground Zero (talk) 19:27, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Substantial means major, according to most people.--JTZegers (talk) 20:03, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    OK, so what’s the definition of major? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @SelfieCity: Any edit that's not minor, obviously. Big edits.--JTZegers (talk) 21:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    People can label "minor edit" as they choose. For example, would this be a major edit because it wasn't marked as a minor edit? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @SelfieCity: Not at all. But examining each edit would be a waste of time. We just need consensus in case someone does something large or controversial.--JTZegers (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    This is the status quo. I don't know what opposing it means. Does the proposal include adding this text somewhere? Or does it implicitly mean changing something else? –LPfi (talk) 10:31, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    @LPfi: it includes changing the text on the warning when you go to edit this page.—JTZegers (talk) 13:40, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    In an unspecified way, then, as this wording is not appropriate for that warning. So after the vote we'd be arguing on how to change the text. –LPfi (talk) 13:44, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @LPfi: I can come up with something. But for now, I'll just let it slide.--JTZegers (talk) 14:05, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    [edit]
    @Ikan Kekek: This article has a history of political disputes, and they're mostly gone. The rule just doesn't go far enough, and that's why I'm proposing these changes. In addition, I am not the only part of the problem. I would like to add "However, if someone revokes it, don't make a hassle out of it."--JTZegers (talk) 00:31, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Not adding useless links is common sense, we don't need policy for that. And reverting useless additions, and unnecessary ones, is also common practice. Here the threshold for reverting before discussing is lower than in other articles. We do not want language that excuses adding links from the general guidelines, as that would be something trolls would use. –LPfi (talk) 10:31, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    #3 Expand the limit from 5 lines to up to 5 or 6 sentences. I originally said "1 paragraph", but a good point brought up by Ground Zero is that they don't have to be long paragraphs, so I changed it to 5 or 6 sentences.

    [edit]
    Whoever this is, five lines on one screen may be two on another.
    As Granger pointed out, we don't seem to have a "five line" rule. Ground Zero (talk) 19:46, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    [edit]
    Again, I mean major edits. And @SelfieCity:, that means big ones.--JTZegers (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ikan Kekek: The rule was there to prevent arguments. Arguments kept happening.
    There's no way to absolutely prevent arguments. I think you created the problem this time by aggressively nitpicking in a legalistic way over a single link, but that aside, the consensus on this talk page has worked very well. You weren't here to see how things went before we came to the consensus, but I'm sure I won't be the only one to tell you that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:08, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ikan Kekek: I didn’t create the problem, I just felt the rule didn’t go far enough to avoid political dispute. Instead, the rule violated the "go ahead" Wikivoyage:Plunge forward policy with it's limit of lines, and violated the "changes to policy" section as well. We won't have that. Furthermore, it’s not “alleged”, it’s there for a reason. Sometimes being too smart is too dumb. JTZegers (talk) 00:11, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • I agree with IK 23:21 UTC. What is needed is a sensibility for where consensus lies. Just discuss the proposed changes to the page instead of proposing changes to the rules. Only when people get bothered with having to discuss trivial changes, we might want this meta-discussion. –LPfi (talk) 10:31, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Finalization (Actually, nevermind)

    [edit]

    Well, that was a swift consensus. Turns out, most of my proposals faced swift opposition, as most people didn't like my choice of the word "substantial" or extending the limit. The only amendments that will pass are:

    • Extending the rule to political disputes, promotional material, and personal causes. (passed 1-1, I broke the tie)
    • If a link is added, it must be useful. If someone revokes your edit, they have the right to do so, however, you will face scrutiny if you make a big hassle about it. (passed 2-1)

    Thank you for your time, even if it was a waste.--JTZegers (talk) 00:38, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Wait. WV:Consensus is not about a majority vote. If an established user such as Ikan Kekek has strong opposition to the proposal, this should be addressed before amendments are passed and made into guidelines. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:43, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Ok, @Ikan Kekek:, how about this. I expand the rule to political disputes, promotional material, and personal causes, but only if they are controversial. We stop rule lawyering. If you think a link is useful, add it. If you don't think a link is useful, don't add it. And if you think a link is going to be viewed as added unfairly and someone makes a big hassle out of it, don't add it in the first place. And don't even think about wasting anyone's time by discussing something that should have been discussed ages ago, or addresses one of your personal issues. I will be the first to admit, I am part of the problem. That's why I made these proposals in the first place. You like that?--JTZegers (talk) 00:50, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Why do we have to have a consensus within two days? There’s no need to write aggressively to other users; just let the discussion continue for a while for consensus to develop naturally. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:58, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @SelfieCity: We don't, but this is one of those cases where it is pretty swift. And the way I write to the users isn't aggressive, it's just making sure they get my point. I'm just double-checking. And then they write aggressively to me.--JTZegers (talk) 00:59, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I think it would be in your best interests not to leave any more comments on this thread for a couple days. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:06, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    And the discussion continues!--JTZegers (talk) 01:07, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I don't see the reason for any change. When was there a big dispute on wording before today? Has it been years or just months? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @Ikan Kekek: In 2019, when the rule was made, but it wasn’t until now when I realized that it’s been months, and yet we keep having political disputes with Trump. JTZegers (talk) 02:15, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── As I said, I don't see any need to change the wording. And we had a discussion here on Trump's blurb earlier in the year when Biden was taking over, because we need to ensure we have a blurb that is sufficiently brief, fair and nonpartisan. And while the discussion was admittedly a little heated given how divisive a figure Trump is, we managed to come to a suitable compromise that all good-faith editors can live with. Since then I don't think the issue of Trump has really been brought up at all (but correct me if I'm wrong). Of course, if you want to make any changes to the Trump blurb, you're free to bring it up for discussion here. Biden's blurb will naturally have to be revised some time further into his presidency as we have a clearer view of his signature policies and achievements, but it's barely a few months into his presidency, so I suggest waiting until maybe the mid-terms for us to have a better idea on how to revise Biden's blurb. The dog2 (talk) 05:01, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    @JTZegers: Please slow down! There's no rush. I suggest taking a step back and giving others time to consider and discuss. Don't try to ram changes through before everyone has even had a chance to comment. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:33, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • I oppose all of these. There have been no issues with the curating of this article thus far under our current guidelines. Rather I think our guidelines have proven to work well for this particular article. I don't see a purpose or benefit to any of the proposed changes and I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change, so if there is ambiguity regarding the consensus on any points, count me opposed on all accounts. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:28, 17 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Well, I guess you're right.--JTZegers (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Disambiguate shared surnames in section titles

    [edit]

    T. Roosevelt and F.D. Roosevelt have their initials in their section titles, the other presidents with shared surnames do not: John Adams & John Quincy Adams, George H.W. Bush & George Bush, William Henry Harrison & Benjamin Harrison, Andrew Johnson & Lyndon B. Johnson. Should this be addressed? It would be most helpful in the table of contents on the page banner. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I'll take care of that. That's kind of a no-brainer.--JTZegers (talk) 21:32, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Golf courses

    [edit]

    Do we really need to be listing individual golf courses? The "Trump 45" section, now that he's been fired, should be cut back to the same length as other one-term wonders like "Carter 39" at most. The Hollywood Walk of Fame should be moved to "multiple presidents" (as Reagan's on it), as should Mt. Rushmore (four presidents). The listings for Mar-a-Lago and Trump Tower could be retained, with the rest of the Trump listings dropped as non-notable. The paragraph blurb could be left as-is.—The preceding comment was added by 66.102.87.40 (talkcontribs)

    I’m not sure number of terms needs to affect blurb/section length. For example, Harrison’s blurb is as long as that of Monroe, even though one was in office 96 times the length of the other. Mt. Rushmore is not under any section currently and is kept in a separate article, though we could move the picture. I’m not sure Trump’s residencies, post-presidency, ought to be included as they are not open to most tourists at the moment (and the golf courses are not related to any presidential duties). The New Jersey residence should be removed I think. I’ve never heard of the state park before and it sounds interesting, though I’d assume it will be renamed (maybe Eric Adams Park or something) in the not so distant future and would then be removed from the list as well. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 10:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    They are associated with Trump to such a degree that his name is on them. If other presidents like Obama or Bush owned a golf course, a vineyard, a coffee shop, or even an abandoned building with their name on it, I think we would definitely list those. They would be valid tourist stops for someone interested in those presidents. As a businessman, Trump simply owns more visible stuff than others. If Trump's name is removed from one or more of the listings, I think removing them would make sense, but as long as they bear the Trump name, they're of some interest. To address what may be the heart of the inquiry: Time in office and your apparent dislike for this president are not valid reasons to delete information or listings. Adding these digs just makes your purpose seem entirely petty. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:28, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    A few things:
    1. First, I agree with ChubbyWimbus that the way you've (IP user) presented the above comment is concerning, if not in outright violation of Wikivoyage:Here to build a travel guide. I didn't pay this too much attention during my first comment but it's best to stay travel-focused on this website and avoid statements that amount to personal disputes. Please remain civil on-wiki when discussing public figures, whether or not you like them.
    2. Your actual point is valid. This article is about the presidents and presidential duties. Previous careers and ventures such as real estate don't belong in this article. You'll notice that — using your example, Carter — there's little mention of his peanut farm, since it's not important to his presidency. Reagan's article doesn't even mention his acting career apart from "movie star," though he was known as an actor until he became governor of California. I don't agree with Trump's section, or any other president for that matter, focusing more on his life as a celebrity than the focus of the article, which is the presidents.
    --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:49, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I'm with SelfieCity here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:55, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    What traveler does this article serve?

    [edit]

    The attitude around this article seems off to me. Maybe it's just veiled Trump hatred, but I don't see the point in NOT wanting listings related to the presidents in their subheadings or to limit it so much as to make it difficult to add anything for most presidents. This is a response to what is written above, but I think there is a clear disconnect between editors and travelers in terms of what they care about and how an article like this could be useful or even the more basic question of who this article is meant for or if there is any traveler in mind at all.

    To me, the article is about the presidents wholesale, and each president's listings should consider what might be of interest to someone with an interest in that particular president. Lots of childhood homes are listed, for example. The limits proposed of keeping it limited to their presidential terms would suggest deleting these. There have been no 10 year old presidents, after all, but these are extremely popular presidential tourist spots. People interested in all or specific presidents want to visit these. What about the statues and monuments? Carter's peanut farm (brought up above) is very well-known. If it still exists and is not off-limits, I would consider that to be a good addition. People interested in Carter would almost certainly be interested in it. Not listing it because it's not "presidential" misses the spirit of the article from a traveler's perspective to me. Curating the article should not be the focus of the article. Not a lot of important political events take place outside of Washington DC and foreign countries, but people want to learn more about or feel "closer" to presidents by visiting more personal locations. Limiting it to their presidential terms and specifically places where they did something politically significant goes against the spirit of the article and I think goes against ttcf. I did not add any of the Trump listings, but when I read them, they all seem to be within the scope of the article if I consider whether or not they would be of interest if I were someone looking into Trump-related tourism/places of interest. It's really not a very big list (and more listings doesn't mean "better president" nor does less mean "worse president" if that immature sentiment is driving this). If it were to get "yuge", we can do what we always do; give Trump his own article. The attitude surrounding this article seems antagonistic towards the traveler's interests. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:08, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Time for In the footsteps of Donald Trump ;) I'm not sure presidents should get their own articles anytime soon. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:17, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I agree with ChubbyWimbus' remarks above except that no way would I want this site to ever put its fingers into a light socket by having an article specifically concentrating on Donald Trump, not because of what I think about him but because it would entangle us in controversy that can and should be avoided and isn't needed in a travel guide. But coverage of points of interest related to Trump in this article is totally appropriate and shouldn't be limited for any political reasons.
    However, I think the IP user is right that the Hollywood Walk of Fame and Mt. Rushmore should be listed under "multiple presidents". I also think that there may be cases of presidents who were famous in other roles, such as Eisenhower, for whom there are so many points of interest specifically relevant to their pre-presidential role that they are best listed in other articles, with links to those articles in their sections here. I'm not saying we necessarily need to do this with Eisenhower, but we can deal with this pragmatically on a case-by-case basis.
    As a side comment, I don't agree with the IMO very harsh remarks about User:66.102.87.40. Sure, it's definitely best to avoid unnecessary political rhetoric, but that's because political arguments are off-topic and an unhelpful distraction from the work of improving a travel guide, not because Wikivoyage has a policy of finger-wagging against negative remarks toward any public figure and requiring "civility" toward them, which would be a dangerous policy a lot of regimes would love to use to censor accurate descriptions of violence and corruption in the countries they rule. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:59, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I don't have an issue with moving Mt. Rushmore and Hollywood Walk of Fame information to "multiple presidents." --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:01, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I support moving Mount Rushmore to multiple Presidents but oppose moving the Hollywood Walk of Fame there. Reagan and Trump were former actors, but this is a unique trait for both of them.--JTZegers (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    That's a reasonable position. I have no strong feelings about this; either way is defensible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:27, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    What JTZegers says makes sense to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:45, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    (edit conflict) Trump wasn't an actor. He was just a reality TV host, and that is what he got his star for. But that said, I think leaving the Hollywood Walk of Fame stars under each individual president makes sense, given that it's quite long, and people who are interested in Reagan or Trump will want to be able to find the precise locations of their stars. As for Mount Rushmore, I support moving it to "multiple presidents". The dog2 (talk) 18:47, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Yes, I agree with moving Mt Rushmore to "multiple presidents," and I can follow the reasoning of others who would oppose moving Hollywood Walk of Fame listings. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:48, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    And by the way, I also agree with ChubbyWimbus that we should add a listing for Carter's peanut farm if it can be visited, or at least viewed from the outside by the public. The dog2 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I agree with the above to keep the Walk of Fame listings under those presidents. In addition to what was said above, Trump's star was often vandalized/destroyed during his presidency by his detractors, so his star actually gained some political relevance beyond honoring him for his career in entertainment. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    @ChubbyWimbus: Why don't you go ahead and add the listing for Carter's peanut farm, since you seem to know most about it. And I think there is also a Carter peanut statue somewhere that people might be interested in. The dog2 (talk) 15:38, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Carter's peanut farm is well-known trivia (or was when I was in school at least), but I don't know the details about it that would be needed to give it a listing. I don't know where it is located, who currently owns it, if it's still a peanut farm, nor if it's accessible. I did add the peanut statue, though. That's what comes up when trying to search for the farm. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

    "Surrendered to Taliban"

    [edit]

    I'm not aware that Biden surrendered Afghanistan, rather I thought he has withdrawn troops, followed by occupation of some cities. Has "surrendered" terminology been widespread or is this factually incorrect? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:48, 13 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Well, he has effectively surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban, but our travel guide isn't improved when unregistered editors add inflammatory opinion-based political comments to our articles. I reverted it. Ground Zero (talk) 22:04, 13 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Okay, thanks for the second opinion. I’m pleased to see this user has moved onto starting a travel topic, Enclaves and Exclaves, which has potential, although we’ll need to watch this isn’t a returning user. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Biden is the current president and these events are ongoing. Just like we did with Trump, we should avoid trying to write a live play-by-play. Biden's blurb should remain relatively generic and eventless until he is out of office and we can look at the totality of his presidency, his policies, public opinion, the effects of his presidency/policies on the US and the world, etc. I don't think now is the right time. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 03:30, 14 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Agree with GZ here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    The events aren't "ongoing", nor is this merely "the occupation of some cities". It's over. NATO lost. The Taliban won. The Untied States of America has been defeated, much like it was defeated by the Viet Cong in the 1970s. We don't need to wait three or four years to decide whether a disaster worthy of the Fall of Saigon will be part of Bidan's legacy; it *is* Biden's legacy and is now part of the history, regardless of whatever else he accomplishes or doesn't accomplish in his lone term in office. The question isn't whether to mention this, it should instead be how to word this to put this information in its proper perspective next to the other vital data on this page, such as the list of golf courses which are here only because they bear Trump's name. Q788771 (talk) 17:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    It was the Afghan government that surrendered and their troops that didn't fight. The U.S. is withdrawing, not surrendering, or at any rate, the point could be argued. What would be uncontroversial would be to state that Biden "completed the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan, honoring an agreement made by Donald Trump". But that withdrawal isn't completed yet, so at least wait a few days. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I agree with waiting a few days, and that we should avoid using the word "surrendered" because it is politically contentious. Let's just keep the blurb factual, and say that he completed the withdrawal. The dog2 (talk) 19:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    "Biden completed the withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan, leading to that country's near-immediate defeat at the hands of the Taliban". To mention the withdrawal and not mention the rest of this is too incomplete to be useful, given the near-Saigon conditions around this withdrawal. Q788771 (talk) 19:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Look at Nixon's blurb, and we just mentioned that he withdrew U.S. troops from Vietnam, and don't go into more detail. Yes, we know what happened, but realistically, this was going to happen whenever the U.S. withdrew, whether it's now, in 5 years or in 20 years. The Taliban are terrible and I'm no fan of them, but the Afghan military were better equipped, better trained and had superior numbers to the Taliban but still lost without putting up a fight, so that tells you everything you need to know. The dog2 (talk) 19:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I agree with The dog2, we don't need detail here. Biden obviously has responsibility for this, but so does Trump:

    ""[B]y the way, I started the process. All the troops are coming back home. They couldn't stop the process. 21 years is enough. Don't we think? 21 years. They couldn't stop the process. They wanted to, but it was very tough to stop the process ... It's a shame. 21 years, by a government that wouldn't last. The only way they last is if we're there. What are we going to say? We'll stay for another 21 years, then we'll stay for another 50. The whole thing is ridiculous. So we're bringing our troops back home from Iraq. We're bringing troops come from Afghanistan." -- Donald Trump, June 2021

    So how about we not argue about the Biden legacy during the Biden presidency? We don't have to worry about providing a "complete" description of anyone's legacy. Readers aren't looking for astute political analysis in this travel guide, so let's focus on being a good travel guide instead of political commentary. Ground Zero (talk) 01:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    I agree. For the record, The West failed in creating a society that would unite the Afghans, that would be universally thought of as possible to maintain and worth fighting for. Do the real local leaders in Afghanistan think the Taliban are worse than any warlord not their own? We did give hope and a better time for many women, girls and some other people. but we never succeeded in creating working democracy (and thus in getting anybody to believe in democracy) or in fighting poverty (did we even try?). With the Taliban Afghanistan may at last get peace, which at least younger generations have never seen. I don't blame the Afghans not wanting to give their life for eternal war and rule by warlords as the alternative to Taliban rule. –LPfi (talk)
    I'd say none of this stuff should be included in the blurb, at least right now while the situation is changing daily and its significance in the scope of Biden's presidency is unclear. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    We do have to update George W. Bush's blurb though. For all intents and purposes, America has lost and the Taliban has won, and it doesn't seem like Biden is going to send troops back to continue the fight, so it's no longer "ongoing". Whatever U.S. troops remain are just to coordinate the evacuation through Kabul airport, but they'll probably be gone once the evacuation is complete. The dog2 (talk) 04:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    In all due caution, we should wait until all U.S. troops are well and truly out of Afghanistan before updating that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 18 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I updated the W blurb by removing "and still ongong", which is no longer correct in the case of Afghanistan, and isn't needed in the case of Iraq, although it isn't incorrect in the latter case. Ground Zero (talk) 11:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    I would have waited. I hope we don't have to change either back. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Looks like the evacuation is over, and the U.S. has completely pulled its forces out of Afghanistan. Should we update Biden's blurb then? The dog2 (talk) 17:30, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Does Biden think the massacre at the airport was paid for with the drone raid? If not, I suppose USA is still militarily engaged in Afghanistan. –LPfi (talk) 17:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    Is it important that we report on the day-to-day changes in the situation, or should we focus on travel information? I do not see the need for providing this commentary, even if it is accurate. Is "and still on-going" essential for understanding the presidency of GW Bush? Readers wanting to know more about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq should not be looking to Wikivoyage for this information. Ground Zero (talk) 18:19, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    It's really not important to update the blurbs on a daily basis. Let's revisit this in a year or three. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:10, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Monarchy of the United Kingdom

    [edit]

    I am objected to yet another link added. This time, for good reason. There has been a link put on Monarchy of the United Kingdom, but I don’t find that we need they here, since this article is about historical sites related to US presidents and US presidents only. We need a concensus: should we keep the link or should I revert it? JTZegers (talk) 22:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Revert, and the same with the corresponding link you allude to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
    rvv per Ikan. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

    Waldorf-Astoria

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    You folks have this listed under FDR. Shouldn't it be under "multiple presidents" as, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_Astoria_New_York it was also the residence of Herbie Hoover for thirty years after his retirement? According to the Encyclopaedia Galactica entry over there "The most expensive room, the Presidential Suite, is designed with Georgian-style furniture to emulate that of the White House. It was the residence of Herbert Hoover from his retirement for over 30 years" —The preceding comment was added by 204.237.90.222 (talkcontribs)

    That makes sense, thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
    OK, I was only aware of its connection to FDR. But if it was the residence of Herbert Hoover too, then yes, it makes sense of move it under "multiple presidents". The dog2 (talk) 04:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

    A small change regarding policy with edits to blurbs

    [edit]

    I'd like to make a small change to the policy on requiring that all blurbs have to have consensus. Namely, I'd like to create an exception for the following:

    1. MoS fixes, such as tdf fixes, or capitalization
    2. Fixing typos (which isn't exactly MoS related).
    3. Fixing syntax (in a technical sense)

    Current policy says that all blurbs need to have consensus, but surely this has to be an exception. I don't think I even need to explain why. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

    A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

    [edit]

    The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

    Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

    "Metadata credits Kenton Rowe, a professional photographer, doesn't match the uploader name (Thomas K. Madigan?)." Seems like it has to be deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2022 (UTC)Reply
    Very likely a copyvio. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

    Trump

    [edit]

    Now that Trump has won re-election, there needs to be minor updates to the blurb. He's not longer a one-term president so that part should be removed, and we should mention that he is the second president of serve two non-consecutive terms. On that note, Grover Cleveland is no longer the only president to serve two non-consecutive terms, so his blurb will need to be updated to reflect that. The dog2 (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I think you nominated yourself to do that editing. If you're afraid someone could complain, they won't if you stick to those facts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Ikan Kekek: I believe this is because The dog2 is topic banned and cannot by community consensus and policy make the updates himself; I think it's fair enough that they made this request because that's what The dog2 is encouraged to do until mid-January. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 23:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    In any case, the consensus for this article is that any edits to the blurbs except minor things like spelling and grammar should be discussed here first, so I'm following that consensus. I'll leave it to you guys to discuss the political stuff because I've not been paying much attention to American domestic politics of late. The dog2 (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You'll have less pain that way, at least in the short term. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The community voted to place a topic ban on The dog2 for edits related to politics and "respect", and we should honour that ban. I have made the edits that The dog2 suggested in as neutral a way as possible. If anyone has any objection to them, we should discuss further changes. Ground Zero (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I do feel that surviving 2 assassination attempts, one of which actually hit him, while campaigning is highly noteworthy.
    Beyond that, though, there does need to be some sort of bridge between the mostly negative facts about impeachment, civil unrest, etc that imply he left in disgrace with the "He was re-elected". It is jarring without any expanation of his political comeback. Most commonly mentioned and therefore (probably) least controversial/debateable reasons for his comeback seem to be nostalgia for the "Trump economy" compared to the "Biden economy", a belief that he will take real action on the border and illegal immigration, the strength shown in his assassination survival, and the Democrats' choice to switch out an extremely unpopular president with his even less popular Vice President with no primary. If bridging the current blurb would make it too lengthy, then the entire thing should be rewritten perhaps with less specifics about his first term (for example, mentioning the impeachments but leaving out the details of each). ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'd caution against a recency bias of making his blurb too long. People have plenty of current-day sources in news/entertainment (keeping in mind what Fox "News" said about itself in a lawsuit) sources. All that said, you could post drafts of the longer and shorter versions for us to look at and consider in relation to the other presidents' blurbs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I guess since I brought it up, I should take a stab at it:

    Donald Trump (R), 2017–2021 and from 2025 — Wealthy real estate tycoon and media personality who was the first president to have held no prior elected or military office. His "America First" agenda involved restrictions on immigration, expanding the Mexican border wall, and relatively isolationist foreign policy. An extremely divisive figure, Trump is the only president to have been impeached twice. Widespread civil unrest, the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, which he was perceived to have mismanaged, and a heavily critical media during his first term led to his 2020 election defeat as Americans hoped politics would "return to normalcy". But as economic hardships grew, immigration problems worsened, and the government became eager to expand American involvement in foreign wars, the tenants of Trump's "America First" agenda and a longing for the "Trump economy", combined with his surviving 2 assassination attempts during his campaign (one in which his ear was struck by a bullet), helped revitalize his image and ultimately win the 2024 election.

    Many presidents have 4 lines, and this is 5, so lengthwise, it's 1 line longer than most others. Better than I expected though. I tried to keep most of what was already there. Maybe it could be shorter if I hadn't, but it was consensus-built. I feel like it retains the sort of chaotic feelings of the first term that were a big part of why he wasn't reelected and explains the interim in just enough details to show why Americans essentially looped back to desiring what the article outlines about his first term agenda: "restrictions on immigration, expanding the Mexican border wall, and relatively isolationist foreign policy" + good economy. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    This is not neutral. No-one is "eager to expand American involvement in foreign wars", but many see that defending Ukraine against Russian invasion is in America's self-interest. "Tenants" are people who rent a building or land. A longing for the "Trump economy"? The Trump economy was crap (largely because of COVID). Ground Zero (talk) 12:49, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I agree with GZ here and object to the proposed wording. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 12:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yeah, I have to agree. I think it's probably fair to say that the Democrats lost because of high inflation for much of Biden's term as President, but not that "economic hardships grew" compared to the horrible economy of the pandemic. I appreciate your attempt, though, and I may try one of my own within the next couple of days, though I hope that won't be necessary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It doesn't have to be "neutral" (The current blurb is not at all "neutral"). It needs to reflect what led to his victory, especially after a previous loss; that means reflecting the views of those who voted FOR him and what changed between the 2020 loss and 2024 victory. The current blurb is negative (not neutral) to reflect what led to his 2020 loss. Now we need to reflect why he won in 2024. "The Trump economy was crap" is a personal opinion that is not shared by the voters who elected him, and it should be obvious that the "Trump economy" refers to prior to Covid. Nobody voted for Trump because they want Covid restrictions back nor does anyone think he intends to bring them back. The desire to bring back the "Trump economy" was a MAJOR part of why he won. I cannot agree with removing that as a factor. If there is consensus to specify "pre-covid" economy, it can be done, but I think most people understand what the "Trump economy" means and that it is viewed more favorably than the Biden economy.
    On the "eager to enter foreign wars" bit, while I think there is a feeling that the government is "eager", I've removed the eagerness part. I think the foreign wars were on a lot of people's minds though, and most Americans don't want to get involved. The "in America's best interest" argument is made for every war. Iraq was "in America's best interest", as was Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. The question is how did the voters feel on that issue overall and did it help Trump win? If the consensus is that this was not a factor in his victory, we can go further and remove it. Changes aside from deletions are bolded:

    Donald Trump (R), 2017–2021 and from 2025 — Wealthy real estate tycoon and media personality who was the first president to have held no prior elected or military office. His "America First" agenda involved restrictions on immigration, expanding the Mexican border wall, and relatively isolationist foreign policy. An extremely divisive figure, Trump is the only president to have been impeached twice. Widespread civil unrest, the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, which he was perceived to have mismanaged, and a heavily critical media during his first term led to his 2020 election defeat as Americans hoped politics would "return to normalcy". But as inflation rose, immigration problems worsened, and involvement in foreign wars expanded, the tenets of Trump's "America First" agenda and a longing for the "Trump economy", combined with his surviving 2 assassination attempts during his campaign (one in which his ear was struck by a bullet), helped revitalize his image and ultimately win the 2024 election.

    Does it read better now? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I think we can add a short phrase in Trump's blurb saying that he is the second president to serve two non-consecutive terms, since that is notable. I would also propose altering Grover Cleveland's blurb just slightly to say that he was the first to serve two non-consecutive terms, then we wouldn't need to keep updating it when such a situation occurs again in the future. And I think in Biden's blurb, we should add a short sentence at the end saying that concerns over his age and mental faculties led to him pull out from seeking re-election after his first term. Does that sound fair? The dog2 (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    That sounds fair. ChubbyWimbus, I really don't think concerns about U.S. weapons sales - because that's what we're talking about, not an invasion of Iraq or sending 100,000 U.S. troops to war in Vietnam - were a major cause of Harris' defeat or Trump's election. I also think the Trump pre-Covid economy needs to be specified as a matter of accuracy. We cannot assume people reading will consider it "obvious" what we're referring to, otherwise, as there's been such a huge amount of lying and misleading in recent years, which I'd say definitely convinced the ~2% margin of voters that the world's best economy was a reason to put a convicted felon back into office, though stating that in the blurb would be truly biased and definitely not something I'd suggest doing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I do think the fact that he's the first convicted felon to be elected U.S. President should be mentioned, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    By the way, other things that could be mentioned as causes for Trump's election this time could include anger at legal immigrants from countries like Haiti and trans people. Conflating them with "immigration problems worsened" is false, but "public anger at immigrants and trans people increased" would probably be accurate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Here's my attempt:

    Donald Trump (R), 2017–2021 and from 2025 — Wealthy real estate tycoon and media personality who was the first president to have held no prior elected or military office. His "America First" agenda involved restrictions on immigration, expanding the Mexican border wall, and relatively isolationist foreign policy. An extremely divisive figure, Trump is the only president to have been impeached twice and elected as a convicted felon. Widespread civil unrest, the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, which he was perceived to have mismanaged, and a heavily critical media during his first term led to his 2020 election defeat as Americans hoped politics would "return to normalcy". But as high inflation during much of Biden's term in office made him very unpopular and public anger at immigrants and trans people increased, the tenets of Trump's "America First" agenda, social conservatism and a longing for the pre-COVID "Trump economy", combined with his surviving 2 assassination attempts during his campaign (in one of which his ear was struck by a bullet), helped him win the 2024 election.

    I don't know how much Trump's image was revitalized, but he won narrowly. It's been noted that incumbents are losing in droves around the world as a response to economic conditions, with the U.S. election narrower than most, probably because Trump is a felon, divisive, etc. Please have at my attempt. I think the phrasing can probably be streamlined, and if you all really think defunding Ukraine is a big deal to Americans, we could consider including it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Slight modification from me here:

    Donald Trump (R), 2017–2021 and from 2025 — Wealthy real estate tycoon and media personality who was the first president to have held no prior elected or military office. His "America First" agenda involved restrictions on immigration, expanding the Mexican border wall, and relatively isolationist foreign policy. An extremely divisive figure, Trump is the only president to have been impeached twice and elected as a convicted felon. Widespread civil unrest, the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, which he was perceived to have mismanaged, and a heavily critical media during his first term led to his 2020 election defeat as Americans hoped politics would "return to normalcy". But as high inflation during much of Biden's term in office made him very unpopular and public anger at immigrants and trans people increased, the tenets of Trump's "America First" agenda, social conservatism and a longing for the pre-COVID "Trump economy", combined with his surviving 2 assassination attempts during his campaign (in one of which his ear was struck by a bullet), helped him win the 2024 election, making him the second president to serve two non-consecutive terms.

    The dog2 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Wikivoyage should not think that it can summarize in a few sentences what has gone on in U.s. politics since 2015. Let's keep it short and simple and avoid trying to provide political commentary. That isn't what readers are looking for from Wikivoyage. Readers will have heard about Donald Trump by now, and formed their own opinions about him. They can look to Wikipedia for more detailed discussion.
    Donald Trump (R), 2017–2021 and from 2025 — Wealthy real estate tycoon and media personality who was the first president to have held no prior elected or military office. Trump is the only president to have been impeached twice and elected as a convicted felon. He survived 2 assassination attempts during his 2024 campaign (in one of which his ear was struck by a bullet). The unpopularity of Joe Biden helped Trump win the 2024 election, making him the second president to serve two non-consecutive terms.
    Ground Zero (talk) 20:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    That may actually be best, though I'm fine with The dog2's version if people prefer it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm fine with GZ's version as well. The dog2 (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I like this version better too. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 23:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    While I'm not sure if "The unpopularity of Joe Biden" is exactly what got Trump elected (An approval rating released today has Trump with a majority approval rating at 54% for the first time ever. I do think that's mostly his own doing rather than Biden's), I think this is more aligned with how the other presidents are written. I would also support GZ's version if the line "public anger at immigrants and trans people" was removed. That's a highly charged leftist viewpoint that dismisses genuine issues and concerns as coming down to "Most Americans are disgusting bigots". It's just not true. Without that, it reads well, though. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You mean you don't believe it's true. I'm not going to engage in specific arguments about this, but I don't think "it's just not true" can be allowed to stand as if it were a fact. And it's not leftists who made a constant drumbeat of attacks on immigrants and trans people central to this campaign. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Of course you're free to believe that most Americans ARE disgusting bigots (which is what I was saying is "just not true"). but it's an unfortunate response to an election loss. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:41, 25 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I don't understand this comment by @ChubbyWimbus::
    "I would also support GZ's version if the line "public anger at immigrants and trans people" was removed. "
    My version does not include that statement. Because views on Trump are so divided, I think it's best to say as little as possible. It is easier to write past presidents' bios because opinions are less inflamed once someone has left office. I think we should avoid spending a lot of time trying to get consensus on describing something that readers are already aware of through the recent news coverage. Ground Zero (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC) Ground Zero (talk) 14:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Sorry, it looks like I misattributed the proposals. I support Ground Zero's wording (in spite of not completely agreeing that Biden's unpopularity was the main reason for Trump's victory) and I would support thedog2's if the line "public anger at immigrants and transpeople" was removed. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:41, 25 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Stop trying to gaslight us. You know Trump lied about trans people and immigrants and appealed to bigotry. Stop trying to deny it! I've done my best to hold back from engaging in a useless debate with you, but acting like appeals to bigotry don't work is nonsense, and if they didn't, they wouldn't be resorted to over and over again. A majority of white voters has voted Republican for President in every election since 1968. What happened during Johnson's full term in office that triggered that? Newsflash: it was the passage of the w:Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the w:Voting Rights Act of 1965, and in spite of, or because of the equitable distribution brought on by the w:Social Security Amendments of 1965 that created Medicaid and Medicare, and other government programs he started that helped huge numbers of Americans of all hues. Yet you seek to shame people for stating the truth. Face it, bigotry has been an American tradition since colonial Jamestown! The main difference between Trump and other Republican presidential candidates since 1968 (with the notable exception of Gerald Ford) is just how blatant and violent his appeals to bigotry are. But they're nothing new, and were prominent parts of Nixon's, Reagan's and Bush I's campaigns. For a historical perspective, people should read w:Lee Atwater, but we're now in the much more blatant age of Trump and w:Steve Bannon.
    I repeat that I'm fine with GZ's stripped-down blurb for Trump, but trying to pretend facts don't exist or are just "an unfortunate response to an election loss" won't make them go away. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    No, you did not "do [your] best to hold back". You knowingly inserted an incidiary, one-sided line as a consensus was nearly formed. It was the opposite of "holding back". Just to give a perspective that isn't bigot-driven: On immigration, "Broken immigration system" has been a phrase for decades now with no one taking it seriously. People are mostly angry at the government for its inaction not the immigrants. Laws are in place, but the laws are not followed or enforced. People want the laws to be followed and enforced, especially when laws are enforced against them. Republicans gave the issue lip service but did nothing. Democrats called people "racist" and "bigots" like you are doing when they brought up this issue. Some even said to vote for Trump if you care (in much less nice terms), so people did. ANYONE could have addressed this in their preferred way, but their preferred way was always to not address it, so people voted for someone who seemed serious about fixing the "broken immigration system". The "Harris is for they/them, Trump is for you" ads used Harris' words (albeit from a couple years ago) to show that her focus is elsewhere when people are concerned about daily expenses and cost of living. It was not about "hating trans"; it was about showcasing a difference in priorities. Even on trans issues, there are lots of people who do not hate trans people (some of whom are trans themselves) who disagree with certain things being pushed in the name of trans people. You can be against things that people push as "pro trans" without being hateful or bigoted.
    It's very easy and self-serving to dismiss all that as being part of an "American tradition of bigotry" (and to blame Republicans as if Democrats didn't immediately turn to racism against Hispanics because of how they voted in this election), but it's rarely that simple and on the flipside, it's difficult to find a country or culture that has moved towards acceptance of people who were "othered" faster than the US. Most societies today are pushing back against globalization and global assimilation in favor of cultural preservation. While there are or can be negative outcomes of that, it's not inherently bad either. Lots of Democrats and liberals support "cultural preservation" abroad but they despise it domestically. They uplift conservatives abroad (who are the ones who tend to maintain culture and tradition) but hate and resent them domestically. It's an interesting dichotomy.
    I did not and do not deny that people can be bigoted or vote based on bigotry. My point on this was always that it is more complex and that "bigotry" is a poor summation of what made people vote how they did (or not vote). There is of course also the weak candidacy of the opponent. There were so many reasons for someone to vote for Trump that had nothing to do with bigotry. It is not a denial of bigotry to be able to see and acknowledge that. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Your objection isn't that no other reasons were given for people to vote for Trump, because public perceptions of the economy were mentioned, but that the appeals to bigotry central to the campaign were mentioned at all. Everyone can verify which party has refused to vote for fixes to problems with immigration management in the U.S. for the last 2 decades, and particularly the most recent bill they negotiated with Democrats, sponsored and voted for initially, who was responsible for their turnabout on supporting it and why, and they can also look at Trump's remarks about legal Haitian immigrants who are living and working in Springfield, Ohio, which had the absolutely predictable real-world effect of inciting a tremendous number of death threats that put them in fear of their lives. And the invective against trans people and attacks on them are also a matter of record and included Trump ads that ran in heavy rotation on nationwide TV during the World Series. Trans people including some I know quite literally get their lives threatened on the streets every day because of invective against them from the politicians and the churches. But sure, blame stating that bigotry was appealed to, rather than the appeals to bigotry themselves, for being "incendiary" whatever, claim the other party are the real bigots, and have a nice day... Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There is no "the other party are the real bigots". I would not bet that anyone is bigoted or not bigoted or "good" or "bad" just knowing that they are a Republican or a Democrat. I've not found political affiliation to be a good indicator of such things. We clearly just have different perspectives on what mattered in the election and why, but since a consensus has been reached, there's no productive reason to continue debating my/our failed proposals. I hope your day will be nice, as well. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Which candidate appealed to bigotry? Nice job trying to deflect this to random individuals. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I find it ironic that what's coming from the above (not you Ikan Kekek, ofc) comes from the same person who made transphobic comments against non-binary individuals a while back (Wikivoyage talk:Use of pronouns#c-ChubbyWimbus-20240412112700-SHB2000-20240412111600). Seems nothing has changed... SHB2000 (t | c | m) 23:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Nothing transphobic was said here. There was a disagreement on what factors were most on the minds of voters in the election. Anyway, I think you two both need to stop trying to drag this out longer or to shift the focus to making it about me personally, and I'm not going to be baited into any further responses with childish "nice job trying to deflect" statements when I've been clear and consistent. Disagreement is not deflection. The changes to Trump's blurb were already made and neither of the above comments have anything to do with it. If the two of you would like to discuss the election, Trump, or your thoughts on me personally, it's best to take it to one another's talk pages. The issue was resolved. If having the last word is something you need, that's fine. Otherwise, this discussion should end and I'll do my part with no further responses. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I never claimed you did; a bit of closer reading could do wonders in the future. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 11:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Biden

    [edit]

    The dog2 mentioned it in the Trump discussion, but I think it's easier to discuss independently, so to get all of the blurbs up to date, I propose, using the opening from Thedog2's wording (additions in bold):

    Joe Biden (D), 2021–present — A former long-serving senator from Delaware and Vice President under Barack Obama. Elected to office amid the COVID-19 pandemic on the promise of a return to normalcy. Concerns over his age and mental faculties led him to bow to pressures to end his reelection bid 4 months prior to the election. His Vice President replaced him as the presidential nominee but ultimately still lost to Trump. As of 2021, the oldest person to assume the office, and will be the oldest person to do so when he leaves office.

    Trying to keep the "recency bias" mentioned above in mind, I whittled down the post-Biden part of the election to just who replaced him (his VP) and that the switch out was ultimately still not successful. Previously I had written that he did not seek reelection but realized that that was factually inaccurate, since he went through the entire reelection nomination, so I think it must be said that he ENDED his seek for reelection. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I oppose spending a lot of time re-writing this before his presidency is over. The above text is contentious, and I don't think we should argue over it now. Ground Zero (talk) 12:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

    His presidency is now over, so we should update this. With only slight changes from above, I propose (new text in bold):

    "A former long-serving senator from Delaware and Vice President under Barack Obama. Elected to office amid the COVID-19 pandemic on the promise of a return to normalcy. Concerns over his age and mental faculties led him to bow to pressures to end his reelection bid 4 months prior to the election. His Vice President replaced him as nominee but ultimately still lost to Trump. The oldest person to ever serve in the office." ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

    Carter

    [edit]

    Jimmy Carter just passed away, so he is no longer the oldest living ex-president. That needs to be removed. We should instead say that he is the longest-living president in U.S. history, which is true as of now. And speaking of which, Nixon's blurb has a mistake. All Nixon did was to kickstart rapprochement with communist China because Henry Kissinger saw the Sino-Soviet Split as an opportunity to use China to contain the Soviet Union. It was Jimmy Carter that formally established diplomatic relations with the PRC, so that should be mentioned in Carter's blurb, while Nixon's blurb should corrected to just mentioning his meeting with Mao. The dog2 (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I agree with these proposed changes. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    Seeing no objections, I've made these changes. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    I think we should briefly mention that he met with Mao, since the photos of Nixon with Mao are quite well-known. The dog2 (talk) 19:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    Separate note (I agree with the proposed changes), but I recently wrote an article about Plains, which is dedicated almost entirely to sites related to Carter. (There is little else there.) Could we add a "See also" to the top of the Carter section with a link to that article? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 20:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    We have two listings here for him that seem to be in Plains. If the Jimmy Carter National Historic Site here is identical to the Jimmy Carter National Historic Park there, then I think that linking Plains in also that listing (which now has a link to Classic Heartland of Georgia instead) would be enough and that a see also to a city article could be confusing. –LPfi (talk) 22:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    I've added a mention of Mao as suggested, and I've adjusted the listing in Georgia. Apparently Jimmy Carter National Historic Site was renamed as Jimmy Carter National Historical Park a few years ago. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    Great. Thanks for the input and research. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 20:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

    Oldest person to ever serve

    [edit]

    With the yesterday's changes, we now say that Joe Biden is 'the oldest person to ever serve in the office'. I think that's a bit strange, as Trump (unless I am mistaken) is older now than what Biden was when assuming the office (born in June and November respectively), and if something unexpected doesn't happen, he will be older than Biden at the end of his term. If we mention the age, we probably should mention also the age of Trump or restore the 'when he leave [left] office' –LPfi (talk) 08:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

    Do we even need to mention that? I don't see how that is relevant to travellers. --SHB (t | c | m) 08:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    What kinds of things do you think are? I thought the idea was to summarize the best-known facts about each president, but if you can think of a way to make all the blurbs more travel-relevant, do tell. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    I think most of the blurbs are fine, but for something like oldest president, it changes and in this case, needlessly nuanced to mention. --SHB (t | c | m) 09:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    It's certainly something Biden was known for. But we should wait for all the, um, events of the second Trump term before editing the blurb for him further. If he invades Greenland, we should probably add that...Also, it should be needless to say, but we shouldn't assume he will serve till the end of the term. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
    I 100% agree with you. --SHB (t | c | m) 10:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply


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