Template talk:Welcome Voyage Tips and guide

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So, have I mentioned that I find this welcome template very impersonal? Opening your user talk page to respond to a welcome message only to find out that the welcomer only typed in 10 characters seems like a let down. We don't have so many people using Wikivoyage that we need this kind of quick welcome. --(WT-en) Evan 11:22, 8 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Do you have better alternatives? I find it a very good way of giving newbies 10-odd links that they might not otherwise easily find, and I make a point of adding a custom note at the end. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:11, 9 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Maybe using {{subst:welcome}} would be better? Gives all the ease of adding a template message (plus custom note), without the source-level brevity of {{welcome}}. --(WT-en) Evan 11:19, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)

Any objections to changing this to have the text from Project:Welcome_message instead? It's shorter and less Wikipedia-centric. (WT-en) Jonboy 14:51, 29 March 2006 (EST)

Without any objections, I'm going ahead. (WT-en) Jonboy 07:49, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

I changed the "specialize your experience" phrase because I thought it was a little hard to understand. I also changed "wiki community" to "wiki software", since the wiki markup is more of a software thing than a community or culture thing. I'm not married to either change, but I thought it'd be worth a try. --(WT-en) Evan 20:07, 18 September 2006 (EDT)

I've added (hopefully correctly) code to allow you to include a personalized comment immediately after the "welcome" statement. For example, you could type

{{subst:welcome|Thanks for your contributions to [[Paris]].}} - ~~~~

and the first line would read

Hello! Welcome to Wikivoyage. Thanks for your contributions to Paris.

followed by the rest of the usual helpful links, and your signature. I think this is a more natural place to put this kind of comment (compared to the end), which makes it easy to turn these boilerplate greetings into something more personal. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 12:37, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

I think that's great... I was thinking though, is it possible to take it even a step further and have it include their username? Hello XXX... – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 23:22, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm a little late, but it looks a little corny to have the PAGENAME template included. I like to greet users as soon as I see them make their first edit and then move on to what I was doing beforehand. Now, occasionally people will respond to my welcome and I'll respond to any comments or questions, but it looks a little tacky from the point of view that these people are so lazy they won't type the five or six letters in my user name to address me personally, but they'll include this template.

If we really want to name option I say creating a field like Todd did so when someone puts a value in the field it'll display as: Hello Frank! -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 04:20, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Whatever works! I like to use the welcome template, but would like to be able to add their name. I'm not sure what Todd did that you're referring to, can you explain? Maybe that will work too. – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 18:35, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Ah, I see what you're talking about. Only problem is it's inserting the name in the wrong spot (Hello! Welcome to Wikivoyage. Username.). So that needs fixin if we go that route. but personally I think it's easier to just have PAGENAME included... then you can welcome 25 users quickly, copying and pasting, without having to type |name for each one. And Todd's code can then stay where it is, and be used as he intended it (for adding in an additional sentence). But if you don't like it, I'm ok with it if you want to remove PAGENAME. No worries. – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 18:07, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

I've updated the template. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 18:12, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

P.S. To address users type: ", Foo" for the first option field. If you want to customize the template further type: {{subst:Welcome|, Frank|Thanks for creating X article}}. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 18:14, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

"P.S." Maybe next time you decide to fundamentally change the behavior of a template in active use (swapping parameters around), you might want to let people know about it in advance. Some of us don't like looking like fools who can't even type a coherent welcome message. [1] - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 19:16, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

OK, I'm a little calmer now, so how about we talk about this? The template can be coded so that, rather than just dumping "{{PAGENAME}}" into the message, it actually types the PAGENAME into the message. It works on the same principle that {{subst:welcome}} works on, substituting the value instead of just a reference to the template. That would save us from having to manually type their name (and a comma and space), and best of all, it avoids creating a second parameter and jumbling up the order they have to be typed in. The only catch is that it only works when the template is properly subst-ed. If someone just types {{welcome}} (which they shouldn't do, but inexperienced users might) the new user's name doesn't show up at all, just the PAGENAME code. As far as I can tell from my research, there isn't a solution to this glitch in the current version of Mediawiki. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 20:37, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

There's a problem with your initial changes too, which kind of drove me nuts too, so I understand where you were coming from. I'd say create two alternative templates: First, revert this one to its previous form, then create a second template with your optional parameter.

The problem with the alternative parameter is sometimes I greet people who haven't even made an edit so what's there to talk about? Nothing. So when I subst: the template the showed up as:

:Hello! [[Project:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome]] to [[Project:About|Wikivoyage]]. {{{2|}}}

Which has the same effect as the PAGENAME template. If a user decides to respond/finally edit then they might think 'What the f*** is that?'. So would a two template thing solution be workable? I'd say X the PAGENAME template idea from both templates, then re-edit the page if you want to greet them by name. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 20:58, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm not quite understanding what the original problem of having PAGENAME in the template is. It makes it more personal, saves us from having to type in the person's name... is there any reason NOT to have it there? Sorry if I'm missing something, but can you explain Sapphire? – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 21:28, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Oh, do you mean then if they edit their page it shows PAGENAME? Sorry, just got what Todd was referring to. Then I like Todd's suggestion of altering the code so that it dumps the name and remains there. Or if you put {{subst:PAGENAME}} in the template, would that work? I'd actually really like it to be there somehow, without having to type it each time. – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 21:32, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, my problem is if the user clicks "edit" he/she will see the PAGENAME template, plus if I don't add a personalized message then Todd's extra parameter displays as {{{2|}}} in the edit window. It just doesn't look right to me and somewhat tacky. Let's turn back the clock ante-bellum on this template and if the optional parameters are really needed create Template:WelcomeAlt. I say leave this template alone because it's much easier to use without all the bells and whistles. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 23:09, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Well I tried a couple things to make subst:PAGENAME work, so that no funky code shows up later... but with my limited knowledge it didn't work. If you or Todd can sort it out, I'd love that. Or if not, then I suppose I'll live. – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:41, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, the "{{{1|}}}" that shows up if you don't include a parameter looks a bit odd, but since it's small and doesn't betray its purpose (like "{{PAGENAME}}") I figure it's pretty harmless. Apologies to anyone who's bothered by it. (By the way, if you include a blank parameter - e.g. {{subst:welcome|}} - the code disappears. Maybe a more experienced template coder than I could get rid of it without that hack.) I've created a Template:Welcomeplus that does a complete subst of PAGENAME as long as you type it in as "{{subst:welcomeplus}}" rather than "{{welcomeplus}}", and also accepts an optional opening comment. So if you want to revert this to the no-features version, that's OK. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 12:27, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Ok, I've removed the personalization parameter, but retained the PAGENAME template based on Todd's experiments. So if you use this template, it will welcome the user by his/her username, but there are no additional bells and whistles. As Todd notes above, if you want to leave a personalized message use the template he created. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 20:35, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Awesome, good compromise! – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 21:18, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

We give 9(!) links to every newcomer we welcome.

Do they really need all of them? Can we make a poll among recently welcomed users to find out which of these links they found really useful, and which they would rather not receive on their day 1 at Wikivoyage (as they are distracting and not to the point)? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:32, 3 March 2009 (EST)

I'm ambivalent. I'm always inclined towards simplifying things, especially when it comes to trying to help new users get started, but I do think the links in this template have been well distilled to the most important/useful. I tend to think the bigger problem here is that our help articles are not well integrated with each other—we could really use a rationalization of these articles. For example, it would seem natural to include Project:Tips for new contributors on the Project:Welcome, newcomers page, rather than fragment the information across two pages. Anyway, if we were to cut any out, I'd take out the pub link (it's usually better that people first look elsewhere for information, and there's already a link to it in the left sidebar). --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 19:29, 3 March 2009 (EST)

As for me, not so sure on Pub--toolbox doesn't get any attention, and it's unreal to expect a user can easily discover it there once he needs any help. However, if he reads somewhere he should refer to the Pub, I think he'll find his way--for sure it's not his User Talk page where he will refer to in the first place seeking for a link to the pub.

Anyway, I second your idea on merging several newcomer-oriented articles. I also thought of merging some of Project:How to describe yourself, Project:User page help and Project:How to create a user account. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 18:43, 4 March 2009 (EST)

I wonder if there's any way to merge functionality of this template with the parameter-expanded Template:WelcomePlus? Haven't we got more Mediawiki experts in the recent years to accomplish that? ;-) --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 03:57, 31 January 2010 (EST)

Of course there is. You simply need to use a #if construction to see if the parameter is blank or not. You can see an example in Template:Routebox. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:04, 31 January 2010 (EST)

Hmm, perhaps not the most transparent of examples. The syntax is as follows: {{#if:{{{parametername|}}}|value if parameter exists|value if parameter doesn't exist}}. (Note that {{{parametername|}}} returns the parameter value if it exists, which the #if will evaluate as true; it returns nothing (the text after the pipe) if the parameter doesn't exist, which the #if will evaluate as false.) So for this purpose I think {{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{{1}}}}} will work. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:13, 31 January 2010 (EST)

Thanks! It looks good, but sources are still with {{{...}}} stuff: [2]. What do you think? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:22, 31 January 2010 (EST)

I don't think that's solvable. Absent having two templates, of course. (WT-en) LtPowers 20:01, 31 January 2010 (EST)

I would like to add a string "{{{1|Hello}}}" into template which would allow an editor to replace the "Hello" word with a personalised greeting such as As-salamu alaykum, Namaste, Ciao, Shalom and whatever the editor wants. Any opposition? --Saqib (talk) 22:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm not clear under what circumstances we'd want to use a language other than English as the greeting. Powers ^(talk) 18:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

It would be helpful for this generic message, and also Template:Welcomeanon and Template:Wikipedian, to mention the existence of the Arrivals lounge. Does anyone object to adding it? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Anyone? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:55, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

No. Go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:42, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think it should be included, but I also agree with a statement Ground Zero made some time ago that we need to put more effort into personalizing/varying welcome messages. Otherwise new users will just get the impression it's an automated message or whatever and will ignore it. Honestly, I didn't examine my welcome message too closely when I got it originally, which is why pretty much my next discussion thread was about something I was doing wrong. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:06, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have added a sentence to the template mentioning the Wikivoyage:Arrivals lounge. Are you guys okay with the change? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:29, 28 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Koavf:

I don’t agree with the automatic inclusion of a standard header in this and the other welcome templates, and don't appreciate this change having been made without a discussion:

1. The change reduces flexibility, making it harder to:

a. write a custom message followed by the template, or;

b. write a custom heading rather than the one prescribed by the template.

2. The talk page interface already prompts you to add a topic header when starting a new discussion (at least on the 2022 version), and beginning a post with a topic header is really something users should be doing anyway.

--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:10, 20 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

As a continuation of what I wrote on your talk page, maybe a parameter could be included that either includes or omits the H2 header? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think the TT rationale makes very much sense. I understand that for regulars welcoming many newcomers, writing the heading by hand can sometimes be frustrating. Would it be enough to have the heading code included in the example use of the template, so that copying the template code would (if you so choose) include the heading code? Writing "¦heading=yes" doesn't make sense, it is as much typing as the heading itself – and those who add the section by the "start new discussion" code or write a header as usual shouldn't have a second (often identical) heading added automatically. –LPfi (talk) 07:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

On the other hand, I think it is established practice on many projects not to add a heading in front of the (often large) welcome boxes. That was no problem before the current automation of section handling. Don't blame those who keep on in that tradition, but we might want to start consistently adding the headings, without template magic. –LPfi (talk) 08:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Writing |heading=yes might be just as much work, but not |h=y. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I am not against adding that parameter to the template(s), as long as you are not supposed to use it. As the template is substed, the opaque parameter isn't seen by later editors. –LPfi (talk) 08:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, as per LPfi, if it's possible to make an optional "h=y" parameter (particularly one that doesn't require "h=n" if you don't want the automatically-generated header), that would be a good compromise.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

It is simple: #if|... Just take into account the three cases "y", "n" and parameter missing; parameter empty or consisting of whitespace can be left for the user to avoid. –LPfi (talk) 14:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Great! Are you able to demo it? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:33, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

The code

{{#ifeq:{{{h}}} | y | ==Welcome==

<nowiki/>|}}

should work. Tested in a sandbox. The requirement for substing makes it awkward to show an example (is there some trick?), but for no parameter and "h=y" respectively try:

{{subst:User:LPfi/Sandbox}}

and

{{subst:User:LPfi/Sandbox|h=y}}

(Just removing the leading space and the <nowiki> and </nowiki> tags on the latter lines in wikitext edit mode and previewing should work. The reply function does not allow such edits, haven't tried with the "visual" editor.)

–LPfi (talk) 08:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Sorry I'm being slow at replying. Thanks for creating that! I've just tried that template in my sandbox, and then on my own talk page, and although it mostly works described it doesn't work perfectly. The first line of the version without a heading ({{subst:User:LPfi/Sandbox}}) renders as

Hello, ThunderingTyphoons! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

Is there a stray space in there somewhere, or something else? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:30, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes indeed! See Special:Diff/4758514/4760782, thanks for noting. The whitespace was there from before, and I didn't realise that it was ignored until I put in the #ifeq. –LPfi (talk) 11:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Well done 😁

Okay, so I would support this change to the template. What say you, Koavf & SHB2000. I might also put a reminder note in the Pub just to make sure nobody misses this discussion. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:49, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I guess I'm confused by the proposal. Am I reading this correctly: You're adding a parameter that is never to be used? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:56, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

It is for those who don't want to type (or paste) in the heading by hand, i.e. it is optional. Then hopefully no one needs the template to include the heading by default and the confusion that would cause (read: caused) is avoided. –LPfi (talk) 18:20, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

We still may need to establish the culture of always including a header, by hand or by that parameter – and by hand when not using this template at all. –LPfi (talk) 18:22, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Koavf I hope you do use it if it's implemented, but as LPfi said, it's optional. As stated already, I don't object to headings being used for welcome templates, just to their being automatically generated by the template.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm all for it, mate. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:21, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Super ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

Can we quickly send a welcome message to new users joining Wikivoyage? But for this we need a bot. Lionel Cristiano (talk) 23:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

To be clear, we have {{Welcome}} but it is added manually, such as at w:, not automatically, such as at c:. There is no reason why in principle we cannot have a bot add it to new users' talk pages.

While we are on the topic, we should amend {{welcome}} to have a H2 header (probably one that says "Welcome" or "Welcome, Username!" for semantic reasons and so that someone can subscribe to just that thread instead of watching someone's entire user talk. See Template_talk:Welcome#Headers_in_the_template. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:09, 20 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

The idea of an automated welcome message has come up multiple times before (and it doesn't require a bot; there's an extension that can do it). See Wikivoyage talk:Welcome message for at least some of the prior discussions. It's been rejected each time because Wikivoyage has traditionally preferred the more personal touch. It allows an experienced Wikivoyager to make sure the newbie is here for more than just one edit, avoids scaring them off with too much attention too soon, and lets welcomers customize the message for different types of newbies. Powers ^(talk) 18:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes. It's confusing and annoying to be welcomed to a Wikipedia just because one checked an article of theirs for suitable images, perhaps fixing a typo while there (such as in a name one knows). I have edits on some 30 Wikipedias, most with one or two edits and I think I have been welcomed to many with no edits (I have accounts on 264 Wikimedia projects, created by visiting them); I indeed do not know thirty languages.

It is also better that some users get {{tout}} or the like instead of {{welcome}}. Also, it is frustrating, when on patrol, to click a bluelink to a talk page just to find the welcome message.

–LPfi (talk) 06:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I prefer to keep manual welcoming for this very reason – without manually checking the user's edit history, there's no objective way of knowing whether to use {{welcome}}, {{wikipedian}}, {{tout}}, {{welcomebusiness}} or {{welcomeanon}}. A bot or an automatic welcoming tool won't be able to do this. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 06:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply