User talk:Johnmartindavies Voyage Tips and guide

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Hi John! I have moved your draft to a new name Cobblers Reef to comply with our naming rules. Reef and dive sites can be even star articles. Please see some of our best articles for orientation e.g. Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Percy's Hole or Diving_the_Cape_Peninsula_and_False_Bay/Pinnacle. Regards, jan (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Johnmartindavies, I have just been advised of your work on Cobblers Reef. There is a lot of good and interesting information you have provided, but it needs a bit of reshuffling to fit in better with our formatting and layout conventions. I will continue with comments on the talk page of the article. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 12:37, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry, I had missed that our dive man was allready on the case, but I have tried my best at reshuffling the content to fit our format. I deleted a fair bit of encyclopaedic content, but it's of course available and recoverable from the page history, so no need to panic. Sertmann (talk) 13:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Stefan, I have done a bit of copyediting as well.

Johnmartindavies, There is enough encyclopaedic information (which is a bit beyond the scope of a travel guide) to justify a parallel article in Wikipedia. Are you a Wikipedian as well? If not I can help there. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 14:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi John Davies, nice work you are doing on Cobblers Reef. I have just run through the article and done some minor formatting and spelling fix ups. So if you see odd looking text appearing don't worry, it makes 55 km format properly and stops it line breaking in the middle of 55 and km.

Keep up the good work. -- Felix (talk) 17:16, 8 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello, Johnmartindavies. You have new messages at Pbsouthwood's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hi, John!This edit of yours mentioned "User:Hardscarf" and "User:Patdoy" but I can't find those as Wikivoyagers. Are they mates of yours and do they need attribution over and above that given at the relevant image pages at Commons, please? -- Alice^✉ 02:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Alice. They are from Wikicommons with full permission, but I am at Crane and can photograph the beach today. Oistins is about 10 Km away and I will do likewise. The Crane Picture was good, but the Oistins one not what I woul have taken. Thank you for all your help. Johnmartindavies 09:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

In that case it might be better to remove the part about "User:x" from the captions, because attribution is already provided at the image's page at commons.

It's best to reply here because I do watch any page I post a comment to, and that keeps the conversation in one place, John. To sign your name just put four tildes ~~~~ at the end of your comment and they will be converted automagically: see UUTP for details. -- Alice^✉ 10:05, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Alice. Points noted. I will try again. Johnmartindavies 10:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Have you deliberately modified your signature at "Preferences" so that it does not show an internal link to your user name or user talk page, John?

At some stage we will have to do something about the growing galleries of photographs, John. There are discussions here that you may be interested to read: Wikivoyage_talk:Image_policy -- Alice^✉ 21:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Alice for your support.

I have one more image to add, a map that I am drawing that will locate all the places mentioned here so as to help make this a guide.

I am 73.4 years and going back to England in 3 days time. My last Scuba dive last week was fine in the water, but I needed help getting back into the high sided pirogue. I will become a liabiity as my arms weaken with age. I free-dived from the beach today and got the picture I had been waiting for (posted).

I embarked on this project as a general travel information document for the general public, but it got turned into a potential dive guide by Wikivoyage, and it is consistently 1 or 2 in Google for Cobblers Reef. It is capable of being a guide because I have spelled out most of what there is to know for this purpose, the rest is still to be discovered and reported.

I dived here last week by chance with an Oscar nominated underwater cinematographer, who will come back and hopefully will develop the article very constructively.

I have been diving round the world for almost 40 years including the other coasts of Barbados but started diving Cobblers Reef 13 years ago and have made more than a score of prolonged trips.

Cobblers Reef is unique.

1. It stretches for 16 kilometres along this coastline 800 metres off shore, very visible because it breaks the surface along its whole length.

2. There is a parallel semi-visible deeper reef 15 metres below the surface about 2 Km off the shore.

3. The prevailing seas and wind pound into this reef 10 months of the year accentuating its visibility, and rendering it somewhat hostile for humans.

4. Most of the coast is hostile surf pounded jagged coral cliffs.

5. The nearest land is 6000 Km away in S W Africa, making this very unpolluted and potentially very mysterious.

6. Very little is published about it in contrast to the rest of the island and the Caribbean. Indeed it is generally considered undive-able for customers by the organised dive centres, books and magazines.

7. When people see the Reef they either ignore or don't see it (30%), or they say you won't see anything there (30%), or they wonder what's there (40%). This was my perspective and I spent 13 years trying to piece it together with the help of the local divers. I have a lot of pictures because the 40% don't want to see what Turtles look like in the Red Sea or Pacific, how fish are caught off the Grand Banks, or what Yachts and Kite surfers look like in California. We all have Lion Fish shots in the Red Sea, but they shouldn't be on Cobblers Reef, so shots here are relevant to them. They like to see pictures from the water, the cliffs, the beaches, the air and space demonstrating the form of the Reef.

8. I would not want to see better shots of fauna on this Reef taken in the Red Sea, Cayman or the Philipines, because the conditions and ecosystems are different. As soon as another contributor comes up with better authentic pictures from this Reef I will welcome them with open arms.

9. I know what Hammerheads and Mantas look like in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean, I want to see what they look like here. I would be very pleased if Wikivoyage could embrace this view point, because I am a great admirer and financial contributor to Wikipedia. I would not wish to make alternative arrangements to transport this data again. My signature should work. Best Wishes. Johnmartindavies 02:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	For your hard work, especially to Diving in Barbados/Cobblers Reef. Thank you.

Curtaintoad (user · talk · contribs) 11:24, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello, and thanks for all the work you do!

Your latest edit to Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H had to be reverted. I think you meant to put the comments on Talk:Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H, which is where any personal commentary on the article needs to be. I'd strongly suggest you move the reverted content to that talk page (I would have done that, myself, but it struck me as inappropriate for me to move your words around). I'd also suggest that you follow up by reverting to what you consider the previous good version of the article, given the fact that you will have explained why on the article's talk page.

I hope all of this makes sense.

All the best, and please keep adding good content!

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you Ikan Kekek I will follow your good advice.

Hello, Johnmartindavies. Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H has way too many photos on it right now, as AndreCarrotflower has pointed out (see Talk:Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H#Way too many pictures). If you need them for a record and aide-memoire, I would suggest that you copy the version you like to your user page as a subpage (with a name such as User:Johnmartindavies/Wreck of the Brianna H) and then move any content you develop into the diving article. I am going to revert to AndreCarrotflower's last good (in terms of Wikivoyage policy, specifically WV:Image policy) version. If you would need any help in how to move an earlier version of an article, it's really simple: All you do is click "View history" at the top right of the article, select the two versions you want to compare, click "edit" on the earlier version, and then simple click Ctrl-A to select the entire article and Ctrl-C to copy it. Then press Ctrl-V on the blank user subpage you created, and you'll have it there to look at any time.

Please let me know if I can be of assistance in any way.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:12, 5 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

I've commented at Talk:Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H#Message to Andre Carrotflower regarding the current dispute over dive site edits, but if I can help out I would like to do so. As a fellow diver I'm excited when someone adds new dive site content to the site, and I would hate to lose your contributions over the minor issue of article formatting. If you're willing to continue contributing I'd love to help in any way that I can to make the process more enjoyable. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:03, 5 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you fellow diver Ryan. You know that diving is a visual activity, not much sound. Photos are our best way of logging it. Also GPS fixes and dive computer records give best hard data. These form the cornerstone of a diving guide. I've enjoyed trying to contribute to Wikivoyage for almost 4 years and making a modest contribution to the Wikivoyage project. I struggled with Cobblers Reef Barbados, previously uncharted territory even though it s so visually apparent on the surface. The struggle seems to be more with bureaucrats rather than the elements. Brianna H is a new wreck and I've dived it twice with GPS and Dive computer data to back it up plus my photos. I would like to continue but I have other commitments and can't keep banging my head on a wall. I arrived home yesterday jet lagged and tried to get as much stuff as I could uploaded because my lap top blanked out for 3 weeks on Caribbean voltage. As fast as I tried to upload stuff it was being wiped out by the Wiki people. I was afraid that having committed a lot of stuff to the web I could lose it with an erratic computer and Wiki hostility. I will persist now that I have again found one friendly face and voice. Johnmartindavies 18:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

One challenge with wikis is that editing is kind of a free-for-all, with lots of different people fighting it out to create their own vision of what an article should be. In this case, since you are the subject matter expert on these dive sites, an option might be to create the article in your "userspace" - i.e. something like User:Johnmartindavies/Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H - where it could be developed without any worry of other editors making changes. Once you're happy with the content you could then either solicit others to help massage the formatting, or just move it to "mainspace" (Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H) where others will then tweak the formatting. Alternately, you can continue to edit in "mainspace", and myself and others can try to assist in any formatting disputes.

Again, sorry your experience has been negative - wikis can seem unwelcoming at times, which is an inherent difficulty in a site where everyone is a volunteer and everyone has their own ideas about what is best. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:56, 5 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you Ryan. I will follow your advice and progress the site in my own space. I will welcome your input at any time and certainly before export back. Dive guides are a very different matter to advising on a pleasant stroll around the Vatican. I'm surprised that non divers feel prepared to take on the risk of interfering in dive guides where safety and litigation may be predominant. I feel far more positive now that I've "met" you. Johnmartindavies 20:16, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

That was my advice to you above, John - to copy the version of your choice to your user page, edit it there, and then move any content you generate to the dive article - and nothing that's in the histories of articles is ever wiped out. I'm sorry you feel frustrated. Was there any part of my post you didn't understand? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Johnmartindavies, I see in the talk page of that dive article that things have gotten much worse than I realized. Please stay here. I pledge to do my best to keep things friendly here, and definitely appreciate your contributions! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:44, 6 December 2016 (UTC)Reply