User talk:Pratyeka Voyage Tips and guide

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Don't bother adding text here. I have stopped adding content due to good content being removed after I have put in a significant level of effort adding it. As a long time contributor to the previous WT site who moved to this site, and an admin on English Wikipedia and a long term Wikiproject person, I have completely had enough of this. I am pointing the finger squarely at User:Texugo, User:Ikan Kekek and User:Texugo. Bye. Pratyeka (talk) 01:57, 21 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello, Pratyeka! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

Thank your for your contributions! However, please note that the images you uploaded have been nominated for deletion for reasons outlined at Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#December 2012 - in particular, pictures of people cannot be used for legal reasons, and most other images should be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons rather than to Wikivoyage itself. If you have any questions you can ask them on this talk page or in the Pub. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

This image File:Ampel-market-stall-surabaya.jpg didn't feature any recognizable people. So what's the deal with deletion? Pratyeka (talk) 10:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, you can look at the deletion vote here Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion/December_2012#File:Ampel-market-stall-surabaya.jpg. Essentially, you need to upload images to Wikimedia Commons (you can then link to them and use them here). --Inas (talk) 10:35, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello, and thank you for inserting good content in the Dordrecht guide! I edited some of it because as a matter of policy, we don't use first person pronouns in destination guides, as they are co-authored. See Wikivoyage:First person pronouns.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

• I believe it's useful to use first person because it marks the content as being not yet peer-edited (ie. sketchy and worth rewriting). Not really interested in policy.Pratyeka (talk)
  • I have looked at your edits and there were some OK ones (improved punctuation, etc.) but mostly what you did was *change the meaning*. Could you please be careful editing other people's work? Perhaps you can raise your concerns directly rather than editing in the event that you believe wording has to change. When you change the original meaning, there is a danger that people will get the wrong impression. Pratyeka (talk) 04:45, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. I don't mean to change the meaning, but fortunately, if I misunderstand what you meant, you have the opportunity to edit accordingly.

If you'd like to change Wikivoyage's policy on the use of the first person, please try making an argument at Wikivoyage talk:Use of pronouns. I don't think any argument for using "I" in destination articles will be successful, however, for the same reason I explained above: This site is co-authored, even if there are articles that are largely written by a single person. And since the policy against using first-person pronouns in destination articles is a firm consensus here, it will continue to be enforced, regardless of a single individual's lack of interest in it.

Meanwhile, if you react to a very courteous notification that included sincere thanks by going to the user talk page of the admin who wrote it to tell him that you think he's acting like an "asshole," I think you are going to have a lot of trouble on this site. I hope that you're just having a rough day; we all have them.

Once again, I thank you for your much-appreciated contributions.

Take care.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Look, I don't care either way because I'm familiar with wiki sites and policy-thumpers. However, the fact remains that you personally have outright deleted *and* improperly altered content of mine. If I were a new user and the same happened to me I would just leave. I can see others with complaints on your talk page. I believe you are scaring off users with your behaviour. You should fix it. It is up to you. Pratyeka (talk) 06:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I note that, in fact, he was not the administrator that deleted your images (which were presumably uploaded right past the big red warning not to do so), and I'm curious about how you can go from a reasonable and seemingly minor misunderstanding to "improperly altered content of mine", especially considering your earlier argument for using first-person pronouns was to indicate those sections called for revision by others. I expect that could have been resolved much more amicably without your jumping immediately to aggression.-- D. Guillaume (talk) 20:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Actually, there were a whole bunch of images, if you were to look further. And said party was involved. Anyway, that was a huge disappointment (I spent a lot of time on those images, they were even praised! Now they are gone!) ... and this whole business is another one. Why can't people just admit their mistakes. Fine, I don't have to use first person (though if it's 'traveler first' surely it makes perfect sense to mark content that has not been properly reviewed by multiple parties in some way, and first person has been my habit for that for YEARS and YEARS ... as a native English speaker, that's how you do it ... trying to appear to be something you're not (authoritative) is not putting the traveler first. But I am happy to write stupidly authoritive sounding stuff based on rumour and individual circumstance if that's the ridiculous policy. This isn't about that though. This is about editing and deleting other people's stuff on a repeated basis who are trying to simply make fair and useful contributions. That has the effect of annoying people and they will not come back. And that, quite obviously, was what I was raising. Pratyeka (talk) 21:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi! I reverted your last edit because it is a bit misleading. Dordrecht does have an interesting history but World war II happened globally. If you want to write about the history of the town please add a subsection and put emphasis on the main points that could interest travelers. Cholera is a world wide illness, so only list it if there is something people can learn from. Best regards, jan (talk) 13:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Gee - what is it with Wikivoyage regulars? You guys are nuts on deleting other people's hard work! I mean, you just deleted the following phrase: "In the past there have been important religious meetings (the 'Synod of Dordrecht'), cholera outbreaks, some important commercial, military and private boat building, and also world war two history.", replacing it with ... NOTHING. The section, which is a standard section for all articles, is titled Understand. The idea behind this section is to give people an idea of where they are. I do not think that replacing real information (albeit it a cursory overview) with literally nothing and the warped reasonaing "WWII happend in all of Europe, cholera is long ago" is going to help people understand anything! Here's the deal with wiki sites: feel free to extend the information added, do not delete it. Not such a hard concept now is it? Please re-instate the information immediately and feel free extend it wherever you feel appropriate. It is simply not a useful habit to delete information, as it will merely scare off users (unless that was your intention, of course). Pratyeka (talk) 14:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Prateyka, you seem not to get our concept. We are not Wikipedia and The traveller comes first. You might not like our policy but they are agreed in our community and so it is expected to adhere to them. If you believe policy needs to be altered then discuss it with other users but don't unilaterally change it. Your work is welcome but every project needs principles. Please refrain from insults. We are all volounteers here, so discuss but keep the emotions down. jan (talk) 14:30, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK, please explain what exactly is it that you think I do not "get". Here's my thinking: The Understand section is not about time, it's about place. Show me a traveler to Europe who is not interested in history and I'll be surprised. The only phrase on the policy page you linked to that could even remotely have any bearing on the sentence you saw fit to delete was "We share our excitement about the destinations we cover.", and that seems in the sentence's favour. Pratyeka (talk) 14:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Outstanding request: Clarify which supposed policy the content that I perceive as both useful (albeit a little) and valid, violated. Pratyeka (talk) 16:27, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Why you deleted my comment concerning your notion of Wikitravel? Does this revealed something about your intention to stir trouble? I suggest you read a star article like Hilversum to unterstand what we aim for. You also don't need to post a message on my talkpage so you replied. I see it in the Recent changes. Regards, jan (talk) 14:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Isn't that obvious? Because I meant Wikivoyage, so I changed it in the original comment up above to keep discussion on topic, which then made your comment not worth keeping. This is my talk page after all. Pratyeka (talk)

It's your talk page but usually comments by others are not deleted. I don't understand your aggressive behaviour because so far members have been gentle with you and offered you advice on how WV works. I suggest you question your behaviour if you want to become part of this community. jan (talk) 15:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your advice on how to manage useless comments on my talk page. If you would be so kind as to clarify your reasoning in the previous thread, perhaps we could get somewhere. Otherwise, it is as it was ... you have deleted my content with no clear reasoning. I have asked you to re-instate it. Please do so. Pratyeka (talk) 15:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Pratyeka, WV is ruled by Consensus and policies, not unilateral demands. I gave clear reason in my edit summary and have shown you how good contributions would look like. From that point you have to make a decision if you want to comply with the WV rules or not. jan (talk) 15:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Outstanding request: Which 'rule' or 'consensus' or 'policy' are you talking about? You haven't been able to articulate it. I asked you for clarification. Please, I really do want to know what you are concerned about. It deeply worries me that I may be missing something about the policy here. Unfortunately, I cannot see anything but some general statements and they seem to agree with me ... not with you. Pratyeka (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

• DON'T BELITTLE WIKIVOYAGERS! SPECIALLY THE ADMINS. DON'T ERASE THEIR COMMENTS FROM YOUR TALK PAGE. DON'T WRITE IN THE FIRST PERSON. DON'T CONFUSE OUR AIMS WITH YOURS. Hope I expressed the notions clearly enough. Ibaman (talk) 16:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply
  • Oh, upset that we can't discuss things logically are we? Well, I guess you just illustrated my point. Thanks. This certainly won't be getting deleted. Pratyeka (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Duly noted. Please observe that the upsetness is always inversely proportional to the respect and compliance with our Manual of Style, our goals and our Tone. Yes, I do get a little high-strung about this matter every once in a while. Not just me, by the way. Be welcome to Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 17:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sure thing. But can you tell me what it is I did wrong in that removed statement? I am afraid to make many, many of the same mistakes again! Pratyeka (talk) 19:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Prateyka, we have a pretty high bar on Wikivoyage for blocking users, but you are close. A first block will be relatively short term, but these will increase if your behavior continues. You are most welcome to contribute here, if you are able to revise how you interact with others. If you are unable to be respectful in your comments and disagreements, however, you will be blocked. --Peter ^Talk 19:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello. You seem to be threatening me. Err, may I ask why? Beyond that, *why are you people all sort of lofty policy naming / threatening / whatever instead of answering the simple query of what exactly was wrong with the damn sentence. I take offence to the suggestion that I am being unrealistic in requesting clarification when my valuable time is dedicated to adding content only to see it either deleted (in the case of the photos; where it could have been auto-migrated to commons, if required) and/or manipulated (in the case of recent text addition; so as to mean something absolutely incorrect) and/or deleted (as in the case of the sentence being queried in the above thread). This is not normal on any other Wikiproject. Therefore, please, can one of you just explain exactly how it is that I can have all these experiences and yet *I* am in the wrong? I am normally not considered to be a stupid person, so if you explain clearly then I should be able to understand your perspective. Right now, however, I am basically of the opinion you three people are some sort of in-clique being ... well ... I don't have a name for it, but I am shocked. Pratyeka (talk) 19:47, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I would add that my primary concern as aforementioned is the experience that other, perhaps new contributors are going to be having ... enough to scare them away. Pratyeka (talk) 19:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Please have a look at Wikivoyage:Avoid negative reviews and see whether you think, after you have read that policy page, that you should edit some of your contributions on the basis of that page's contents. In general, negative reviews are avoided, and unworthy hotels (restaurants, etc.) are simply not listed at all, but there are rare exceptions to the rule, and the lousy establishments you mention may or may not fall within them. See what you think.

And thank you for adding some really excellent content!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I think everywhere I've been adding content for recently is small enough that prominently located applies. Pratyeka (talk) 04:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Cool. Thanks again.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)Reply