Talk:Jeju Voyage Tips and guide

Archived discussions Talk:Jeju/Archive 2003-2012

Contents

Jeju island is a fantastic tourist destination in Korea, however the quality of this page on Wikivoyage is pretty bad. Is there anyone else following this page who can help clean it up? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Jejumaster has been contributing some content to the Climate section that I feel is not appropriate:

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The annual average temperature reaches 11.7°C, with Seogwipo boasting the highest and the peak of mount Halla the lowest. The annual average Temperature of Jeju is relatively low, compared with those of other places at the same latitude of the earth. This is due to the cold winter seasons, which in influence of continental climate, and also by summer that do not become too hot due to the cool oceanic currents.The climate is milder than that of the Korean mainland owing to the surrounding warm currents, although the island experiences a good deal of wind throughout the year. The reason is that Halla Mountain, st the center of the island, serves to block the effect of air masses oh high humidity that move from the coastal areas. The amount of rainfall is the highest at the southeast areas of mount Halla. In addition, the precipitation on mild-slopes and ridges of the mountain reaches 1,780mm and 2,766mm respectively. The annual precipitation of Jeju for the last 30 years is reported to be 2,044mm for the island as a whole, and 1,560mm for the coastal areas.

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There is a lot of information there that may be accurate from a scientific point of view (although the average temperature of 11 degrees is just false), it is of no relevance at all to the traveler. Such content should probably be better directed at Wikipedia. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

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Thanks for your interest about jeju.

Above all I don't understand your baseless guess.

Because this text is contents from the foreign webpage of Jeju Special Self-Governing Province.

The average temperature of 11.7 degrees is not false. I think you don't know about Jeju.

As you know Korean you can understand this contents : 제주특별자치도는 연평균 기온은 11.7도로 서귀포 지역이 가장높고 한라산 정상부가 가장 낮다.... 이 제주특별자치도가 대륙동안의 해양도서로서 겨울에는 대륙의 영향을 깊게 받아 저온이 되고 여름은 이와 반대로 해양의 영향을 받아 고온이 되지않기 때문이다. Jejumaster (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi JejuMaster. The guess is not baseless. If you had read the change comment, you would have seen it was based on Wikipedia: Jeju on Wikipedia . It depends on the area of the island, however the average annual temperature are around 16 degrees, which is significantly warmer than the 11 degrees you have suggested.

The source of the wikipedia article is the 'Korea Meteorological Administration', which I believe would be a trustworthy organization for climate matters on Jeju.

Additionally since the temperature on Jeju changes a lot through the year, stating an 'average annual temperature' isn't actually very helpful. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

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If you need to check this Information, go to this webpage 제주특별자치도 외국어 홈페이지 Jejumaster (talk) 07:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have checked and the information is not sourced. I have sourced my information to the South Korean government's 'Korea Meteorological Administration'. With all due respect, I believe the meteorological department of any country is the most reliable source of information. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:38, 8 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm thinking to put the following style of chart in (the values are from Shanghai, I will change)

Any thoughts? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 15:13, 10 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, such a list is exactly how temperatures are presented for individual destinations, just add it. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:53, 10 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Changed. (see revised table) Will place on main article --Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

On reflection, I think the decimal place looks confusing in this table. Should I round up (or round down) to the next appropriate whole centigrade? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Decimals in the range between .00 and .4999999... should be rounded down while those between .50 and .999999 should be rounded up. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:19, 11 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Rounding implemented as per the table below.--Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:24, 11 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Nice work. You might want to add a hyperlink to an English language source so that Jejumaster and any other readers can have a look at the detail. A link to an updating weather forecast would be useful to travellers too. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 16:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Actually the source was the Wikipedia page on Jeju, therefore I believe that I cannot link to it? The Wikipedia's source itself is unfortunately only in Korean. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I created a new banner from the following Wikimedia image. I don't think it is the greatest image to use, however I wanted something other than the default.

Jeju island must have some great panorama pictures. Does anyone else have one? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I just noticed there are three 'orphan' sub articles that were imported from WikiTravel

• Jeju_(city)
• Udo Island
• Seogwipo

These pages do not seem to have been edited since the Wikitravel migration (apart from the usual bot template fixes). Is it OK to merge their content into the main Jeju article and delete? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'd say no, except for maybe Udo Island. The fact that an article isn't up to date isn't a reason to outright delete it. Jeju (city) and Seogwipo qualify for having their own articles. ϒpsilon (talk) 04:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK, for Jeju city and Seowipo I will make them listed more prominently on the main Jeju page. I'll also have a look at repeated content. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Can I ask about this again? Basically if Jeju city and Seowipo qualify for their own articles, then shouldn't Jeju island itself become a region article and all listings moved down? Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:11, 24 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I just start a new region discussion --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:28, 24 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Currently, the Jeju dialect is dead, so we shouldn't describe it in the present tense. It's listed at UNESCO's endangered languages as Critically endangered, so it's inaccurate to call it 'not as strong as before'. UNESCO says the speakers are "all above 70~75", so it's not 80 as I thought but it's still moribund, especially among the younger people who our tourists are going to see the most. I changed back to 'was' and other past tenses.--Seonookim (talk) 04:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Seonookim, many thanks for bringing this up in the discussion section. My only evidence is anecdotal from having visited Jeju with other Koreans. (i.e. Restaurant staff speaking between themselves in the Jeju accent, but will speak to Korean tourists in a 'standard' accent). Of course anecdotal is not fact, therefore your opinion would be very much valued.

Would you agree that the Jeju dialect is an endangered language that the tourist is unlikely to encounter, however the Jeju Korean accent is still strong and can be difficult for even some mainland Koreans to understand? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Agreed, and the current description is good.--Seonookim (talk) 06:43, 23 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I find the description of the dialect in "Talk" and in the infobox contradictory:

1) Korean is the standard language on Jeju island, spoken with a distinctive accent. The local dialect of Korean is nearly incomprehensible to Koreans from other provinces, though all locals are able to speak standard Korean as well.

2) The people of Jeju island spoke a (now sadly moribund) dialect of Korean that is different in both vocabulary and accent compared to the Korean spoken on the mainland, and which was difficult for mainland Korean speakers to understand. It is uncommon to find anyone who can speak this anymore.

If the local dialect is truly moribund, why does it bear saying in "Talk" that it is nearly incomprehensible to other Koreans? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

The article does a bad job of explaining this. The distinctive Jeju Korean accent is certainly alive and well. The 'moribund dialect' referred to is actually different, representing a near separate language that was evolving. Not very different to the situation of the w:Okinawan_language that was evolving on those Japanese islands.

I would prefer to remove reference to this dialect (in the infobox) because it is indeed not useful for the traveler if practically noone speaks it. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:55, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I would approve of that. Seonookim, I see that you haven't posted since 2013, but if perchance you're reading, do you have any comment? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:58, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I believe that Jeju is too big of an area with too many listings to be one article. Additionally we already have the two cities and Udo island split off into sub articles that are replicating content.

Can I suggest turning Jeju into a region article with the following articles?

• (Exists)
• Seogwipo (Exists)
• East Jeju (Does not yet exist)
• West Jeju (Does not yet exist)
• Hallasan national park (Does not yet exist)
• Udo Island (Exists)

Comments? Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

No comments, so I will propose the following for creation in the next few days: Andrewssi2 (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I was about to create the regions as above, however I am mindful of recent discussions around not creating 'artificial' regions, and frankly East and West Jeju are artificial. I am suggesting the following instead, which will absorb the existing articles for Jeju City and Seogwipo. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Pinging User:Ypsilon for all things Korea Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Annyeong haseyo, Grüss Gott and Ni hao! You're referring to the Munich districts, I guess? Creating "artificial" regions can be useful when the official regions and districts (made up with to administer various public services that the locals use) are impractical or incompatible with the needs/interests of an average visitor.

But anyway let's use the official division in this case, it's on map already and Korean sights, hotels etc. include the Si in the address so anyone adding stuff here will immediately know which article to put it in.

Generally about Korea? Good news: I'll soon be done with the cleanup operation of South Korean articles. There are really just the cities in Gyeonggi left. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Great! BTW, I noticed that Pohang is still a complete mess and I believe you have never edited that one? Just a tip :) Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Looks like I haven't, even if it's listed in the region. Also, I noticed that Pyeongchang that you proposed for deletion isn't completely listingfied. I'll do it on the version in your userspace. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Galleries are used sparingly on this site, but one useful way to use them is to show some local foodstuffs. However, the way the gallery is currently set up is very poor, as the photos are too small and there is useless white space for about 2.5 inches on the right side. Compare the gallery in South Tyrol#Eat, which is much better. I tried copying the code from there, but since the pictures used in the gallery at Jeju#Eat are of widely different sizes, chaos would result. Is there an easy way to justify all the photos in the gallery such that they take up the entire space of the page from left to right but don't go to any second line or mess up the format of the section in any way? If you know how to do that, please do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:13, 6 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jeju makgeoli1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Where are all the colored regions on the map? Could someone who knows how please add them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:45, 3 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

I made them invisible, as only one of them working was confusing (see the request in the Pub: Strange yellow layer?). I assume something needs to be done at OSM or Wikidata. If our regions differ from the official ones, the shapes probably need to be defined before they can be used. I don't know the magic involved, so couldn't fix it; I think coping without them is the second best. –LPfi (talk) 10:48, 4 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

First, I have no idea what this section title is intended to mean. Second, it's not clear all of these would be "Do" listings: for example, a market would be "Buy." Third, a mere list of names with no description is not very useful.

• Udo Island.
• Seongsan Ilchulbong Tuff Cone.
• Hamdeok Seowobong Beach.
• Hyeopjae Beach.
• Hallasan National Park.
• Dongmun Traditional Market.
• Hallim Park.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:58, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

I deleted this text, which didn't make sense to me:

"Jeju Island is an island that is not completely land, so it has to enter through the sea and cannot be moved by car from other countries or regions. Therefore, you can enter Jeju Island and travel by car."

Is the intended meaning of this that visitors are forbidden from bringing their own cars by ferry or other means to Jeju? Jung Subin, please share your thoughts, and thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

It doesn't mean prohibition. Since Jeju Island is an island, the procedure for taking your own car is a little tricky. Most travelers to Jeju Island enjoy Jeju Island by using their cars through "rental" in Jeju Island, rather than taking their own cars from home.Jung Subin (talk) 05:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I think it would be sufficient to state that it is complicated to bring a car onto the island, so if you want to drive while there, it is much easier to rent a car on arrival. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

This article is a subject to educational assignnment. The students working on this have asked for feedback at RfC (but not here), so I am starting a discussion here. Thank you for any feedback. Please ping the student editor (Hojong9474) who requested the feedback if you reply here. Piotrus (talk) 04:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

An obvious problem is that this is a region article, so every listing added to this article needs to be moved to the article for the relevant city or park article. In the case of restaurant, bar and hotel listings, they should simply be moved; in the cases of "See" listings, some summaries of highlights should remain. I'm pinging User:Jung Subin and User:Hojong9474 to make sure they see this, and also you, Piotrus.

I would suggest for all of you to look at star articles. Singapore is another island. You all should have a look at the article about it, which is a star. Notice how it has no templated listings in the "See," "Do," "Buy," "Drink" sections, lists only some local fast food chains in "Eat" (of course, keeping in mind that Singapore is a country, whereas Jeju is not, but perhaps Jeju has some of its own chains) and three major hotel chains (not individual hotels) in "Sleep." You can look through Category:Star articles to find other articles in that category. Many of them are huge cities that have an organization analogous to region articles. For example Chicago has an article for the whole city that is very sparing with templated listings, and then there are articles for various neighborhoods. I also notice the AirBNB logo on the page. I will delete that right away. We don't need to promote the organization. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also Airbnb listings are technically rentals, and including them requires prior consensus per the listing guideline. Edit: I read your edit summary -- yes, we should have the discussion per WP:APT. Twsabin (talk) 14:39, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

That's this edit summary. Ikan Kekek (Piotrustalk) 14:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek Thank you for your comments. Listings that can be moved to an existing subpage (about a city) should go there (I think several items should be moved to Jeju City, based on the glance at the maps), but for listings located in the rural areas I don't think we have any place to relocated them? And majority of listings here are about such a locatins. Ex. Suwolbong Peak. That entry seems fine, the only problem I see is a missing wikidata connection (:wikidata:Q17401350) Piotrus (talk) 04:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

My question on the rural areas is how far and accessible are they from the nearest place we have an article for? There are various ways to deal with listings in rural areas. One possibility is to list them in a "Nearby" subsection of the article for the nearest city; another is to create a rural area article that includes them. The third possibility is indeed to leave them in a region article, but even in that case, there should normally be no complete listings in any article for a region that is subdivided into smaller regions that have their own articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I have added a tag to remind editors to move the Eat, Drink and Sleep listings to the city articles. More information can be found at Wikivoyage:Region article template, which says;

"Almost always, individual listings (including detailed contact info for restaurants and hotels) do *not* belong in a region or sub-region page. The region-level description is a brief overview only.... Individual listings should be placed at the lowest available level of local page (a district of a huge city or the city page for a small town)."

Also, for See and Do listings:

"Also, points of interest (such as those mentioned in "See" sections) should not usually have markers in region articles but should be linked to the bottom-level article where they have full listings."

For listings in rural areas, alternatives include:

• "creating a single local-level page for a broad, sparsely populated rural area (such as Rural Montgomery County) with multiple villages on one page,
• "adding the listing in the appropriate main section (see/do, eat/drink, buy, sleep) in the nearest city page if the town is just a suburb of that city, or
• "adding a section "Nearby" in an adjacent city article (before the "Go next" section). Divide this into a subsection named for each village in the surrounding area. Note that "Go next" normally lists the next destination which actually has an article in Wikivoyage."

Ground Zero (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Jung Subin, Hojong9474, Piotrus: we need your help. This is a region article. Wikivoyage does not include restaurants, bars, cafes and hotels in region articles. These have to be moved to the city articles. The See and Do sections should have summaries of what there is to see and do, but the detailed information (addresses, hours, prices) should be in the city articles. As you know Jeju better than other editors, and as you added many if these listings to this article, we need you to move these listings to the correct places. Thank you. Ground Zero (talk) 13:03, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

There is a problem with countryside and villages currently not covered in any city, park or rural area article. Should they be handled in the city articles (administratively, I got the impression that the cities and districts coincide and cover all the island or islands), or should new rural area articles be created? In the latter case, how should we divide the districts? –LPfi (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@LPfi That's one problem, another problem is that we need to merge Jeju City and Jeju-Si, which are about the same topic. And yes, as far as I understand, it's correct that "the cities and districts coincide and cover all the island". Jeju can be divided into the Jeju City area in the north and Seogwipo in the south, and we can keep separate article on the Hallasan National Park and the three tiny islands (Marado Island, Udo Island and Chujado Island). So I think we need to 1) move listings to the subarticles mentioned here and 2) merge the two Jeju City/Si articles. Piotrus (talk) 14:25, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

In that case, Wikivoyage's coverage of Jeju should probably be reorganized, with the island divided into two cities. However, the next question would be how many listings will be in each city article? If there would be a lot of listings, should one or both of the cities be districted (divided into different articles for different areas)? Then, again, if so, how many districts, with what boundaries and about how many listings per district? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Hojong9474: thank you! Ground Zero (talk) 13:46, 2 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

The dynamic map at Jeju has a strange blue layer. Why and how to remove it? Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 07:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Hanyangprofessor2: The "strange" yellow layer you're referring to is the {{mapshape}}, which is used in many non-bottom-level region articles. Please don't remove the mapshape, though. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:46, 28 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000 Ok, but what is its purpose? It looks strange and when students asked me about it, I could only tell them I'll get back to them later :) For the article cited, it doesn't seem to be helpful. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 06:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Hanyangprofessor2: It's to highlight the regions. I realise that the mapshape on Jeju is somewhat incomplete, but New South Wales#Regions should give you an idea of what a complete mapshape should look like. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:47, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

I agree that it looks strange, and I'd say that one shouldn't add any mapshapes before they all exist. If one is gone because of a glitch in the servers, so that it can be expected to reappear soon, then OK, but if it isn't defined yet, or some statements are missing at Wikidata or OSM, then the mapshapes shouldn't be added until that is fixed. I now made them transparent for the time being. –LPfi (talk) 13:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

@LPfi Thank you. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 06:25, 4 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think this section is misnamed. We have 2 cities with city article templates, 1 park with a park template and 4 islands with city article templates. I propose to delete this section, merge the descriptions of Jeju-Si and Seogwipo-Si to the "Cities" section's entries on the cities that are the capitals of those districts, and put the park and islands in "Other destinations." The current "Other destinations" are villages, which are not properly other (non-city/town/village) destinations and should be either deleted or covered in prose as a paragraph at the end of "Other destinations".

An alternative is to maintain a "Regions" section but have only unlinked entries on the two districts and a list of "Outlying islands" as the third region, but I think that would be redundant.

Your comments? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ping User:Chipmunkdavis, User:Jeong seolah, User:Sgroey, User:Rukkha1024, User:Hojong9474, User:Jung Subin, and User:Alalch E., all of whom have contributed substantially to this article in the last couple of years (but some of whom haven't edited since 2022). Also pinging User:Ypsilon, who took part in the two previous regions discussions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. None of the entries in that section are truly regions. Alalch E. (talk) 08:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Makes sense to me too, the islands are destinations much like the towns. A bigger problem is the two city articles are really half an island each, which means they aren't that helpful for either the core cities or the more east/west areas. CMD (talk) 09:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's probably best to deal with that in the city articles, for now, by stating that x or y listing is x number of km from the city center. Eventually, if the amount of content becomes overwhelming, districting within the two cities could be considered. (We know they each constitute a district, officially, but districting on Wikivoyage is whatever serves the traveler best, according to a consensus reached during a discussion on the city's talk page.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

The issue is it doesn't help the traveler much as is. For example, putting information about Seongsan on the Seogwipo-Si page but not the Jeju-Si page is poor, especially as most people will stay in the actual Jeju-Si city and drive to Seongsan. May as well just put everything on this page. CMD (talk) 11:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Merging everything here is a different proposal than the one I'm making. Just looking at the Jeju City and Seogwipo articles, without considering any outlying islands or anything, I would oppose merging everything here, as making the Jeju article overwhelmingly long would ill serve the reader/traveler. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

The outlying islands are part of Jeju City and Seogwipo. As stated, the current split ill serves the reader and traveler. CMD (talk) 03:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi there, thank you for raising this issue. I appreciate the discussion. I recently spent some time in Jeju so I can say that the Jeju-si/Seogwipo-si division is an administrative one only and is not apparrent on the island nor is it useful to the traveller. So I agree with @Chipmunkdavis.

In addition, calling Jeju-si a city and Seogwipo-si another city are also pretty useless as the entire north coast is pretty much one contiguous built-up area, as is the south coast.

I am in favour of merging the Jeju-si and Seogwipo-si pages into a single Jeju-do page. I do not think this will make it overly long because the Jeju and Seogwipo articles aren't that big anyway.

An alternative could be breaking up the island into articles for the North, South, East and West. I believe this would appropriately deal with the other problem that @Chipmunkdavis wrote about above.

I'm happy with either one of these alternative visions for our coverage of this beautiful island! Sgroey (talk) 22:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

North South East West might be a good split, covering Jeju City proper and surrounds, Seogwipo City proper and surrounds, Seongsan and surrounds, and then I suppose the series of coastal resort towns in the west. CMD (talk) 03:30, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Would those all be city articles, or should some have Wikivoyage:Rural area article templates? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Depends what you want them to cover I suppose. Outside of Jeju-si and Seogwipo-si, Jeju has a lot of small towns, all with places to stay and things to see, basically forming a ring around the Mount Hallasan national park. Maybe the east and west would be rural, and focus on the things outside of the cities? CMD (talk) 05:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

That's OK with me. I think the islands, if there's enough to say about them, do merit having their own articles, too, regardless of what district they are in officially. But that's not the primary point of this thread, which is about not having the "Regions" section. It looks like everyone agrees with that, at least. I'll give it a couple of more days, and if it still seems to be a consensus and there are no ongoing issues in that regard, I'll take the steps I proposed, for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply