Talk:Laos Voyage Tips and guide

to the "drink" section I added the line "Something to note however is that some areas may be so laid back that they will expect you to keep track of of what you have drunk, with the odd guest house asking how much you have drunk during your stay upon check out." as that is what I encountered, can any one else can confirm this?--(WT-en) Hypo Mix 08:03, 27 January 2011 (EST)

My dearest Anonymous, find me something in Laos as impressive as Angkor Wat, and you can keep your comment. Otherwise I'll stand by my ground that Laos' temples are not as awe-inspiring as Cambodia's. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:02, 4 Aug 2005 (EDT)

You are right about the temples, but Lao scenery is more impressive. I traveled by boat from Siem Reap to Phnom Penh and (later) from Phnom Penh to Vietnam and I found it just boring. In contrast, the boat from Luang Prabang to Thailand is much more scenic (and it takes two days, while both trips in Cambodia took less than a day). (WT-en) Rbakels 03:16, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

A lot in this article seems to come from Lonely Planet (shoestring SE-asia), some descriptions word-by-word. For example Lao or Laos section and speed/slowboat section contain very known constructions to me.

Hi Anonymous, as for the speed boat section, I did write it without having read the "Shoestring"-Edition. Nevertheless, I did read several Laos-guidebooks, so some expressions might be similar, but the text almagamates all those info and also contains personal experiences. To be clear: I did not willingly copy one line from any other guidebook. I would be surprised if I managed by coincidence to rewrite exactly like the LP-Stuff, that would be something like PSI, don't you think? Information like those on casualties are of course taken from one of the books, but this is not copying or plagiate. Maybe you can elaborate the exact matches and/ or work them over? --(WT-en) Ront 05:11, 15 September 2006 (EDT)

Wikivoyage on Laos with a bare mention of malaria, and none of cholera, typhoid, dengue, Japanese Encephalitis, and hepatitis?

Project:Plunge forward! (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:46, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

The purpose of this site is not to promote or facilitate promiscuity. I see no reason to have the condom information here. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 66.233.214.134 (talk • contribs)

If you act responsible you should use condoms not only if you have several sexual partners. --(WT-en) Flip666 ^writeme! • 18:27, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

The purpose of this site is to provide useful information for travelers. If travelers use condoms (and I think it is fair to say that some do), then information regarding condoms does belong on Wikivoyage. If your purpose here is to delete travel information related to family planning or safe sex, then I would suggest that your goals are incompatible with those of Wikivoyage. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:46, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Instead of deleting one line about condoms, why not focus on filling articles with listings for interesting things travelers can do in any given location besides have sex? That will keep travelers occupied and un-promiscuous, and keep you un-censorious. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 21:08, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

I've also put back the line about lao lao being the cheapest way to get hammered because, well, it is. And you don't drink that stuff for the taste! (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:08, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Could somebody explain to me what, exactly, is wrong with the word "hammered"? (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:55, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

What you fail to understand is that "hammered" is an unencyclopedic term and violates NPOV. --(WT-en) VisitingWikipedian 16:13, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

I do not like recommending our readers how to get drunken and when I first read this sentence I did not understand the ironic tone in this sentence. We are not an enzyclopedia and it is perfectly ok to use colloquial language, so I have no problems with the word "hammered" but it might sound like a recommondation, so maybe we should remove this sentence completely. --(WT-en) Flip666 ^writeme! • 16:39, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

Sorry Flip, rest assured that sarcasm was not directed at you. My feeling on this is that there are travelers looking to get hammered (I tend to run in to these folks on trains...) and they might as well get their information here. I say we give travelers the information and let them decide for themselves how to behave. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:22, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

It's back. And this is my new favorite edit comment, even if I do say so myself. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:26, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

For an international audience, it would be helpful not to use slang. My command of English is sufficient to prefer the English language version of WikiTravel, because it usually contains more information than other language versions. But my command of slang is limited. Another comment is that (unformtunately) some people travel to Laos just for "sex, drugs and rock and roll". While thare are stiff penalties on drugs, alcohol and sex is apparently the sole purpose for some people to travel to Vang Vieng. It may be a deliberate strategy of the Lao autorities to attract tourists that otherwise would find Laos boring. (WT-en) Rbakels 03:24, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

getting rid of Lao Kip outside of Laos is difficult ,you are right Jpatokal...! the end of the cold war doesn't seem to hold for bankers....:( In Vietnam I could change them ,but not to a fair rate...118.71.178.231 08:04, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

I think it's the Laotian Communist Party who never noticed that the Cold War ended, not the capitalist running-dog bankers... (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:40, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

Whoever wrote this Wikivoyage page, I think did a phenominal job and I just wanted to mention that here and say thank you. I found it extremely informative, and I did like realistic facts laced with humor. I was on the fence about going to Laos but now I'm fired up to go. I was a little suprised at some of the complaints, especially the condom guy, lighten up buddy. Anyways, don't worry about the whiners, I think you're entry is really good!

Brigg(WT-en) Rockin'SEA 03:50, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

Laos is accumulating orphaned city/town articles without regions. It would be greatly appreciated if someone(s) with knowledge of the country would help build a region structure for our articles. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:48, 3 January 2009 (EST)

I know Laos from 3 actual extended visits and a lot of reading, and shall have a go. I do not think Laos requires an especially complex regional structure and I have come up with two options. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)

Option 1. A simple north, central and south split. Makes sense for a long, narrow country like Laos (especially when there are no coastal regions to deal with) and, in my experience, visitors do think of the country in these terms. So we would have:

• Northern Laos - all of the northern hill provinces to the southern/south-eastern extremities of Xaignabouli and Louangprabang provinces.
• Central Laos - everything south and south-east of Xaignabouli and Louangprabang provinces to the Southern Laos border as defined below.
• Southern Laos - everything south from the provincial border between Kahmmouan and Savannakhet. An alternative would be to use the Kading River as a more northerly boundary.

Option 2 is a bit more geographical but makes less sense for the traveler I believe. Keep Northern Laos as defined above. Move the southern boundary of Central Laos north to the Kading River. Split the south into two regions: Annanite Mountains and Mekong Plains. So we would have:

• Northern Laos
• Central Laos
• Annanite Mountains
• Mekong Plains

Either way, but I prefer Option 1. I am sure there are WikiTravelers who know Laos better than me and comments are very welcome. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)

Given the uncontroversial nature of this proposed regionalisation and the general lack of interest, I will plunge forward and do it. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:38, 4 December 2009 (EST)

Awesome map! Unfortunately I don't know the country well enough to help, but this seems like a logical way. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 12:32, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I'd also go with Option 1 -- nice and simple. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:15, 5 January 2010 (EST)

how about some information on what to buy, in addition to how to get cash?

Laos#What_to_buy? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:43, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

The article is very right that minibuses are less comfortable than even a basic regular Lao bus. The article mentions the option to rent a car with a driver. I wonder whether it is feasible to rent a car without a driver, if only that allows even more freedom. In my perception the main roads are in a fairly good condition, and they are pretty empty. And in Laos cars traffic drives at the right side of the road, which is good if you are used to that. Any comments? (WT-en) Rbakels 03:10, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

I assume that the proper nomenclature for the Lao currency is "kip". I can't find any documentation on this. Correct or not? Seligne (talk) 09:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is a summary of the conventions used on Laos articles. All are either codified in the Manual of Style or were arrived at by discussion.

Currency: 100 kip (rather than ₭100 or LAK100)

Temperature: Celsius

Time: 24-hour clock

Measurements: Metric

Spelling: British English

Telephone numbers: Laos mobile numbers start with 20 and should be listed like:

+856 20 654 321

where "856" is the country code for Laos.

Numbers that do not start with 20 are landline numbers and the last 6 digits (conjoined with a hyphen) are the "local" part of a subscriber number:

+856 21 123-456

Seligne (talk) 11:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I updated the money chapter, as it is now possible to exchange to and from kip in Bangkok.

Asciimov114.129.29.165 08:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

The current introduction just says Laos is very poor. This can use some elaboration as well as pointing to some of the positive features of this country --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

The alternate banner could also be considered for Southern Laos. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:27, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

The second one is a great photo but the first one is even more distinctive. I would very mildly recommend using the second one for this article and the first for Southern Laos, but I'm by no means sure about that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:53, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

The current banner (0) is taken in Northern Laos. Banner 1 is taken in Southern Laos. Apologies if I weren't clear before :-(. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:56, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

• I prefer the alternate banner, but both are nice. It would be great if we can use whichever one we don't use here in some other article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:12, 13 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
• I think the current banner is more distinctive and the alternate banner should be used at Southern Laos. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 20:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

  There is now a new discussion on Talk:Central Laos as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:30, 15 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

In recent months, there is a surge of human trafficking reported in Cambodia, Myanmar and Thailand, where travellers (mainly Taiwanese travellers, Chinese travellers were more common pre-COVID) were tricked by fake job offers, travelled to and abducted in these countries, and forced to work for criminal syndicates like slaves. In response to the trend, I have issued warnings for articles of Cambodia (particularly Sihanoukville), Myanmar (particularly Northern Myanmar) and Thailand.

References (all in Chinese):

• w:zh:柬埔寨人口販賣事件, the article recording the surge on Chinese Wikipedia.
• Travel warning (highest level) for Cambodia, issued by Taiwanese MFA.
• Information page by the Taiwanese MFA.
• News report by Taiwanese investigative journalist The Reporter, covering the background of the surge and involvement of local Taiwanese gangs.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper am730.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao, illustrating the death of a victim.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao highlighting Hong Kong travellers have also fallen into victim, luckily most of them are successfully rescued.
• News report (in English) by The Diplomat, illustrating the seriousness of the trend.

Please check if there are problems of over-bolding or other grammatical problems, and feel free to add more on advices if necessary.廣九直通車 (talk) 06:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, that's a good addition (the warnings are in 'Work', for anyone else interested). If you haven't already done so, it might be a good idea to add these to zh.wikivoyage.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

This seems horrendous and frightful should definitely be mentioned. Thanks for adding them 廣九直通車. Agree with tt! that it might be a good idea to add this to zh.voy. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I'll keep on my sentry work, just like how I made my first warning on COVID for Wuhan (sigh it's almost 2 years and the pandemic still doesn't come to an end...). Will follow up on Chinese Wikivoyage.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, ThunderingTyphoons!: While the entire Chinese Wikivoyage is mostly empty (that's why I'm more focused in here), I've also Done with the warnings at there: see voy:zh:柬埔寨, voy:zh:泰国, voy:zh:緬甸 and voy:zh:西哈努克. Perhaps after there are no further comments, this thread should be swept to the corresponding article talk pages.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

We do have some cautionary info at Working_abroad#Stay_safe, Common_scams#Employment_and_charity_scams and Volunteer_travel#Be_wary. I wonder if those need to be expanded or if some links should be added either in this article or in those.

Certainly variations on the problem are fairly widespread. In my own travels I've encountered:

• • Filipinas trapped in exploitive jobs in Saudi Arabia (1980s, not sure if it still happens). She cannot leave the country without an exit visa and getting that requires the boss's signature. He says she's a lazy bitch & he's not signing. She says he beat or raped her, often both. My advice would be don't go anywhere where you'd need an exit visa to leave.
  • An agency charging Chinese nurses large up-front fees for placements in Canada on domestic servant visas taking care of disabled people, mostly Alzheimer's patients. Salary might have sounded good to a Chinese, but it was much less than you'd get working at McDonald's and hours were much longer.

Things I've only heard about include an Indian diplomat in the US mistreating domestic help (w:Devyani Khobragade incident), Fujian girls being smuggled to Taipei being thrown overboard when the Taiwan Coast Guard caught the boats [1], Snakehead gangs importing prostitutes to the US. Pashley (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here pickers of wild berries are imported from e.g. south-east Asia. They often have to take loans for the journey. The buyers of the berries arrange visa, travel, accommodation, intro, transport to the woods etc., but usually do not employ them. One year the harvest was weak and the pickers couldn't pay the loans. Volunteers helped them go to court to claim employment, but the pickers couldn't afford to stay during the multiple-year process, so they settled at terms they could live with. The berry-pickers are still not regarded employees, but to get visas for their labour, the buyers now need to guarantee a minimum income (and there are more eyes on lodgings, rents etc.). We have also had a number of outright illegal arrangements, mainly in other trades. The common denominator seems to be loans and threat of being expelled from the country for illegal work, in the cases where it isn't about direct slavery. For those who have an income at home, the risk of being expelled isn't a reason to remain in slavery, but if you have family you cannot feed without the foreign income ... The criminals may also threaten you and your family in your country of origin, especially if the justice is weak there. –LPfi (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I support these warnings. Last night I added caution boxes to Tachileik [2] and Myawaddy [3] on the same issue. And it is not just targetting individuals who speak Chinese. Malaysian[4] and Indonesian[5] were also targetted by the same group of fraudsters. This merits posting in English to reach as wide audience as possible. I do not think this is the typical "run of the mills" employment scams since those commons scams only want your money. The current scam hold you hostage and force you to work for them. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate these kinds of warnings. They are important. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Update: It seems that not only aspirant workers are falling victim, criminals are also targeting the average travellers. Some may recruit workers in local front companies and traffic victims en masse using company tours, others may use individualized vacation invitation to lure them to these countries (see this report by HK TV Channel i-Cable), all followed up by abduction. I genuinely don't know when will the criminals resort to random abduction if the situation worsens. Given by such worrying scenario, I have raised the warnings to the top of all these articles. Please advice if this is appropriate or they should be send back to stay safe, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also thanks to OhanaUnited for leaving proper warning, have upgraded these warnings to {{warningbox}}based on the template's usage guidelines.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I read that Laos may also be one of the destinations.[6] I propose adding the same warning to Laos. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 22:15, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The warningbox at the top of the article should be very brief. Most of the information could be in Work (not necessarily in a warning box), that relevant also for those not intending to find work in Stay safe. Some of this should probably be in Working abroad and Common scams. –LPfi (talk) 06:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for Mx. Granger's and your opinion. I have send these warnings back to "Work" and "Stay safe" (if work is not yet created). Though do you think a very brief warning on the top with link to the more detailed warning is OK?廣九直通車 (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The warning starts with: Telecommunication fraud, illegal remote gambling are rampant in parts of Thailand and its neighbours, Myanmar and Cambodia. How does this relate to te rest of the info in the warning box? --FredTC (talk) 06:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@FredTC: You mean the warning for Thailand? I make special remark on Cambodia and Myanmar, because Thailand is a major transit hub for human traffickers to transit victims from their country to their bases in Cambodia and Myanmar, though criminal bases do exist in Thailand (like the notorious "KK園區", not sure what's its English name). The remainder of the warning focus on common methods used by human traffickers and ways to avoid them. If you have concerns about coherence, please make your point clearer, thank you.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I mean the "Telecommunication fraud, illegal remote gambling" -part of the text. FredTC (talk) 09:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

For that part I tried to lay down the context and background. After all, criminals don't traffic and abduct victims for no reason, they do these because they need to recruit manpower for them.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply