User talk:Seligne Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

Hello, Seligne! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

• Great work on the Khao Lak article, good to see some informed and developmental editing occuring in that article. Keep up the good work. -- (WT-en) felix 19:06, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

I have imported your recent work on the Phang Nga to 07:02, 8 August 2012, Khao Lak article up to 23 Aug 2012, Hua Hin up to 8 Sept 2012, Bangkok/Sukhumvit up to 02:18, 31 August 2012, Peterfitzgerald brought in your Pattaya contributions, everything else that you have worked on up to 1 August 2012 has been brought in as well. Nice work on the articles. cheers -- Felix (talk) 16:31, 9 September 2012 (CEST)

Hi! It's great to see you here! --Alexander (talk) 08:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I can echo the sentiments expressed above and look forward now to our Thailand articles rapidly improving. A very warm welcome, Seligne! -- Alice^✉ 10:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you for the kind sentiments! --Seligne (talk) 10:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Seligne, great to see you here. I clicked onto your Contribution page and although I did not look over any of your contributions here (yet) I am sure they are to the standard apparent when you started contributing (elsewhere) a while ago. I did note that you appear to have been quite busy on a few articles in the last couple of days. I will look forward to having a look at what you have been doing there. So this is just a very warm welcome to you and I hope you will be able to enjoy contributing to this project. I am a bit distracted elsewhere at the moment but if ever you want to have a chat about anything article or policy related make sure you feel welcomed to contact either myself or one of the usual suspects you may recall from earlier activities elsewhere. cheers -- Felix (talk) 11:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Seligne. I, too, am very happy to see you here and doing more great editing! One bit of information that you may have missed: The "Get out" subheading, which always struck some of us as very unfriendly-sounding, was changed to "Go next" in all articles that used to have "Get out." All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, thank you for cleaning up after me! I did notice this change (and think it is an improvement), but I seem to forget it a lot! A question for you: I contributed a lot to the old site, including some recent changes. Is it ethical for me to go back and copy/paste to here some of the stuff that I did there? --Seligne (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sure. You own the copyright to whatever you post, here or there. You can note in your editing summary that it is a copy/paste of contributions you made to Wikitravel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's certainly legal. I think it's ethical too if you have not given any undertakings not to damage IB's moneymaking ventures in any way. Certainly there are lots of Travellers worldwide that will appreciate the quality and quantity of your edits and I also think it's really neat that you kept exactly the same User name which will ameliorate any attribution problems. -- Alice^✉ not in Singapore right now 02:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the good info and encouragement! My username is my Wikipedia username that I have had for about 10 years, so I'm good to go with it and happy to use it here! --Seligne (talk) 05:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sawasdee khap Seligne, i have seen your comment on the Nai Soi talk page and took the liberty to add the vfd tag. As i don't have clue about Northern Thailand (Ko Samui is rather my area of interest), please add a reason at the vfd page for it. Thank you for your really good work. Regards, jan (talk) 10:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanx. Done. Seligne (talk) 10:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

		The Original Barnstar
		For services to all of our Thailand articles. If you are as tireless here as you were at the other place, I'm sure most of the Kingdom's articles will shortly be in tip top shape! Best wishes! Alice✉ 20:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

hi seligne, i m not so good yet in managing wikivoyage page. i try to delete /clean koh pha ngan > thongsala >eat > jumunjy bar who is close since 2/3 years now. i try to delete it but a windows with spam filter appear. how to manage it regardsThesameseb (talk) 11:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello Thesameseb! A similar thing happened to me when trying to make changes to a page. The reason was that some pages on WV get spammed by bots, so changes are not always permitted. Let me go to the entry you reference, try to delete it, and we will see what happens. Thanks! Seligne (talk) 11:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I am blocked by the spam filter also. I suggest you wait for a short while and go back and delete it. A lot of people seem to be working on this issue. Seligne (talk) 11:27, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Seligne, you do such good work, and I think you could benefit from having admin tools that make it easier for you to revert edits and block spammers. If you'd be willing to be an admin, let me know, so that I can nominate you.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I am flattered by your proposal. I would consider it an honor and a privilege to become an Admin if in your opinion and those of others I could make a positive contribution.

Best, Seligne (talk) 11:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Also agree that you're a top candidate for the adminship, Seligne. Thanks for your hard work. James A ▪ talk 11:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

My condolences, Seligne, on your demotion to janitor ;) I have flipped your switch. I would encourage you to read over the Wikivoyage:Administrator's handbook, which has a combination of reminders about relevant local policies governing use of admin tools, and tips on how to use them effectively. While I'm fully confident you are familiar with the various relevant policy pages, it never hurts to reread Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits (in particular), Wikivoyage:Deletion policy, and Wikivoyage:Protected pages. Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have! --Peter ^Talk 17:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

My commiserations, too, Seligne! Seriously, it's richly deserved for all your content creation (even though I know it's not supposed to be a "reward"). -- Alice^✉ 17:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations. --Saqib (talk) 18:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Grats from me too! James A ▪ talk 12:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

You seem nearly inexhaustible! Contrary to what I think was someone's expectation, you haven't slowed down one iota since becoming an admin. Thanks for all you do.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Seligne. I'm wondering if you know of any good Thai or other Southeast Asian destinations that would be good to nominate for an Off the Beaten Path feature. Any that strike you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Your question prompted the immediate thought of Myanmar. Like most people I know little about it due to the long-festering political situation. As for specific regions/places/towns there, let me noodle on that for awhile. I may be heading there in a month so I am doing some research anyway.Seligne (talk) 07:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Have fun! A lesser-known island or town in Thailand could be a possibility, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

In Thailand, please consider Ko Lipe and Hat Yai. In Hat Yai we have a resident dedicated editor who has crafted an outstanding article on the city. It is definitely off the beaten path given its southern location and attendant fears of civil unrest (completely overblown). Ko Lipe is a great island destination with a decent WV article. Seligne (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hallo Seligne, i just saw by incidence this discussion. The Hat Yai article is really good! I would slightly prefer Ko Lipe due to its remoteness and off the beaten track style. Sadly the Ko Lipe article has only one picture and no map. Do you have pic or checked commons? I think then the article would be ready for nomination. Gruss, jan (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Gruss dich, Jan. Give me a day or so to hunt around for some Ko Lipe photos. If I find some I will post them to Commons and the article and tell you. Seligne (talk) 16:01, 24 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Dear Selinge, I deleted the Camellia Hotel 5 from the Sleep section cause I've stayed at this hotel yesterday (and in 2011) and they're converting to a long term rent place. In addition to that I would not like to recommend this place to anyone else anymore as this cant be even considers as hotel/hostel anymore the way they operate ... Please let me know if you still think my edit was wrong —The preceding comment was added by EvilsX (talk • contribs)

I think your edit is warranted and I thank you for the explanation. (Some biz owners like to remove their competition sometimes, hence the reluctance to allow unexplained deletions.) I thank you and will proceed to remove. Seligne (talk) 06:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

But according to hotel's website and some reviews I've read, it doesn't show that this is not a hotel anymore and not allow short term stays. --Saqib (talk) 06:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Who you gonna believe, a website or a Wiki Voyager who was there yesterday? Seligne (talk) 06:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Well, I'm going to trust Trip Advisor's reviews but not User:EvilsX, he yesterday joined WV so how can be xe trusted so earlier? --Saqib (talk) 07:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Camellia Hotel 5 is not on Tripadvisor. Some other Camellia Hotels are, but not nr. 5! So, there is no review to trust. --FredTC (talk) 08:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

See this. --Saqib (talk) 14:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I found the hotel on TripAdvisor, using your link. However when I look for hotels in Hanoi, it does not show. That is why I thought it was not on Tripadvisor. When I do not search for hotels in Hanoi, but for the entire hotel name, it does show. --FredTC (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

What's up with this revert? In country articles, currency and money practicalities always comes first, and shopping info is at the end. Jpatokal (talk) 10:33, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Apologies. Somehow what I saw was that you had deleted all of that haggling info with no explanation. (See Cambodia Discussion page). I missed that you had just moved it. Seligne (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

I see that you've really done some fantastic work in licking both our Thailand and Cambodia articles into shape, Seligne, so you may wish to comment here: Talk:Cambodia#Prices. All the best! --118.93nzp (talk) 00:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

What is up with the Mae Salong revert? I was just there. Were you? How about giving a reason. I am continually dealing with your reverts. Tedious and frankly annoying. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 14:49, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for butting in, but I noticed that Seligne hadn't been able to reply to you yet, Jeff.

Seligne does a fantastic job adding content to our S E Asian (and, especially, Thailand articles) and I notice that she was editing just after you did, so it may be that the revert was just a quick technical measure before working the great slant on things that you provided into the whole article. Maybe she had your contribution in a notepad or something and she was then distracted - who knows.

I do understand how a revert - not used for vandalism or an otherwise bad faith edit - can sometimes feel like a slap around the face. I'm sure that would not have been what Seligne intended as she is one of our most thoughtful and careful editors and we certainly do value and respect the contributions you make here, Jeff, and want you to keep making many more great edits to expand (and correct and update where necessary) our content. You do make a good point about modifying the standard revert message where it would be helpful and necessary. Thanks once again! --118.93nzp (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I've run into Seligne before, and have weathered several reverts. Frankly, if many more of these happen I won't be editing here anymore. It is not my feelings at issue here, but the fact that it takes so long to get good edits past revert-happy admins who don't think about how conditions have changed and who revere past edits more than present reality. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

You changed this:

Some guidebooks wax lyrical about today's Mae Salong as a miniature Yunnanese Shangri-La, but if you come with this image in mind you may be a little disappointed: at first glance, Mae Salong looks much like the little Thai town it is. However, the crisp climate, the lingering Chinese influence, delicious native Yunnanese dishes and small hotels and guesthouses catering to visitors still make this a popular getaway, accessible even on a hurried day trip but worth stopping in overnight.

To this:

Some guidebooks wax lyrical about today's Mae Salong as a miniature Yunnanese Shangri-La, but if you come with this image in mind you may be a little disappointed: at first glance, Mae Salong looks much like the little Thai town it is, predominantly populated with Hill Tribe people and relocated Thai much more than Chinese. Nevertheless, the crisp climate, the lingering Chinese influence (although much of it commercial more than endemic), passable native Yunnanese dishes and small hotels and guesthouses catering to visitors still make this a popular getaway, worth visiting even on a hurried day trip, but well worth stopping in overnight. There are several four-story modern hotels completing construction (as of Nov 2013) which aim to capitalise on the first class views across the valley.

You gave this as your reason:

Added to Doi Mae Salong, some changes there, and the description of a quaint Chinese village with very tasty food is sorely disappointing

I think the original serves the traveller better than your edit, even though the word count increased from 80 to 127.

Some specific issues:

• I do not understand what a "relocated Thai" is. This is Thailand, full of Thai people. Who relocated them? Were no Thais born there? What does this mean?

- A relocated Thai is someone who has relocated from another part of Thailand. Many from Bangkok, though they may originally have been from elsewhere. If you know Thai dialects, then you can tell that many of these guesthouse people in the North speak Central Thai predominantly. Asking them confirms that they have relocated out of Central Thailand, mostly for lifestyle choices, or with aging parents seeking a slower pace of life.

• "...Chinese influence (although much of it commercial more than endemic..." What does this mean? "Endemic" refers to a condition regularly found among particular people or in a certain area. Does it mean "commercial more than local"? What does that mean? Why put travellers in a position of having to decipher your cryptic musings?

- I'm not sure if these are real questions. Much of what is now going in in Doi Mae Salong have to do with commercialization of "Chinese-like" character of the place. This is for Chinese tourists.

• You (snidely, in my opinion) give as your reason for your change, ...the description of a quaint Chinese village with very tasty food is sorely disappointing) What? The OP described the food as ...delicious native Yunnannese dishes... You describe the food as ...passable native Yunnanese dishes... What happened to the ...very tasty food... you give as the reason for the change?

- My response is quite genuine. I expected something based on the previous description, and it really wasn't there. The food is not very good. There are better Yunnanese restaurants in Chiang Mai, in my opinion.

• Yes, new hotels are being built. How exactly is this of value to the traveller?

- How exactly is the fact of new hotels being built is of value to the traveler? I'm not sure how this is a real question. The fact of new hotels to stay in should be of immense interest to travelers. Actually most construction is complete, and they are being outfitted for December occupancy.

I apologise for not giving a reason for the revert. I hit "undo" and, to my surprise, was not given the opportunity to explain myself. I should have gone to the Talk page and done so, but it was getting late...

I am sure you feel I do not value your efforts, but I do. But more important than your bruised feelings or mine is the quality of our product. Seligne (talk) 01:07, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

- Try not to revert my postings, but instead ask the questions you have to me, and I can correct if need be. Frankly I am tired of people undoing changes which are meant to, and demonstrably improve these listings. It makes people tired and unwilling to spend time here. And then you get what, a travel guide which gets out of touch with the reality that is the places. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Seligne. I've been observing the interaction between you and Jeffmcneill, and I slept on it before deciding that it's better to let you know what's on my mind, rather than keep silent out of deference to you. I'll start by saying that I have the utmost respect for your work, was very happy that you agreed to be an admin, and consider you a great admin. That said, I'd also be concerned if we chase away someone who seems to me, anyway, to be a helpful editor.

I'm wondering whether there are any misunderstandings between you and Jeffmcneill. What I get from what he says is that his experience, from his recent visit to Mae Salong, is that the food is not very good and the town itself has been turned into a kind of theme park for tourists that feels inauthentic to him. He also thinks that the impending opening of new hotels is something that would interest potential visitors, partly because these hotels will be open very soon for reservations and, I'd add, also because it shows the level of development in the town. I haven't been to Mae Salong. Perhaps Jeff's observations seem unfair or inaccurate to you; is that the issue?

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I am very sensitive to the issue of driving people away from WV. And I do not want to do that. At the same time, I stand by my view that the recent edit was not an improvement to the existing text. It confuses rather than enlightens. There is no way we will become the premier open-source travel guide unless we stand head-and-shoulders above everyone else. I struggled with the issue of being a) a nice guy, or b) standing by my instincts and convictions. I went with the latter. If you think I am wrong, revert my edits. I won't be hurt or lose sleep over it. There is great value in having an impartial 3d party adjudicate these issues as they arise. Seligne (talk) 00:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

People who work hard at something sometimes feel they have more right over that thing (even though it is a free and open source community resource), especially when given admin powers. Well, those people are wrong and I won't be contributing any more to Wikivoyage. Seligne doesn't think that is wrong, but I sure do and I don't have the seemingly immense amount of time to keep going back and editing and explaining the kind of improvements I am making, which are fairly obvious. "Instincts and convictions" seems high-minded, but really it is just saying "I think I am right" rather than trying to reach consensus and not engaging in an edit war, which are community policies above individuals. This kind of revert behavior is what has poisoned Wikipedia and why I and many others rarely edit there any more, and it has taken root in the new Wikivoyage as well. That is simply too bad, but not altogether surprising. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 01:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Seligne, just wanted to send you some kudos from The Swan restaurant where we've just had a delightful Burmese lunch. Good tip! Overall, the city guide for CM is highly useful. I'm not sure how much of that is your work, but I know at least a good part of it is. So thanks. Cheers, JuliasTravels (talk) 07:28, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Enjoy your supper too, Julia!

You're not wrong - Seligne has done a truly fantastic job in kicking and wrestling our South East Asian articles into shape. --118.93nzp (talk) 07:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks to you both for your kind words. A lot of people have had their hand in this. Julia, I just added a place yesterday you might want to try: Ben Cocktail Bar. Check it out, you will be delighted (if you are at all interested in cocktails!). Best, Seligne (talk) 09:27, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Let me add one thing: a lot of people labour on these articles. It is so rare to actually get feedback that anyone out there really reads and uses the info. I'm tickled! Seligne (talk) 09:30, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

We'll, this is the first trip I make for which I find a wv guide as good as my good-old guide book. So that's worth mentioning, even if it is ( of course) a group effort. I love a cocktail and you're right.. These ones are worth the walk. She even has wifi in this tiny place :-) Cheers, JuliasTravels (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Damn! Forgot to mention Wi-Fi! Thanx! Seligne (talk) 23:48, 27 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Dang, where did they ever find the time? Lazarus1255 (talk) 23:19, 28 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi there! Just wanted to let you know that I have reorganized an itinerary you have worked on recently to better match the itinerary article template. If you have any information that could help to fill in the Understand/Get in/Prepare/Go next sections, it would be much appreciated!

One other thing - I reverted your addition of the {{IsPartOf}} template to that article. IPO puts the article in the "destination article" category so it is not used in our itineraries. What is your opinion about creating a separate {{ItineraryIn}} template to give itineraries breadcrumb trails? Texugo (talk) 14:06, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't think it is of high priority, but it would be good I think to give Itineraries a grounding geographically. That may not be easy, or even possible, as some itineraries, e.g., Burma Road, span several nations. Others, like the Samoeng Loop are contained within a single province, thus easy. Thanks for fixing my fumblings!Seligne (talk) 14:15, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I was kind of thinking about the possible difficulties. For some of those cases, we could just put the next highest parent region that contains the whole route, but there are others where this wouldn't make sense or would be impossible, like for the Silk Road, which crosses parts of Europe and Asia. Maybe it's not needed after all... Texugo (talk) 14:19, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

"This edit is of less importance to travellers than what it replaced." I beg to differ! The original was: "As a result it has remained a drab, rather uninteresting place"; well, I added things to do. What's your issue with it? Elaborate. Clearly it is of more use with something than with nothing. --Sigmundur (talk) 09:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Sigmundur,

My rationale was as followsː

You wrote this...

Vinh's role as an industrial port city led to heavy destruction by aerial bombing during the war. People's republic's first general Ho Chi Minh was from Vinh area, and hence it receives more generous funds for modernization and construction than average province.

Replacing this...

Vinh's role as an industrial port city led to heavy destruction by aerial bombing during the war. As a result it has remained a drab, rather uninteresting place.

You added two factsː 1. HCM was from the Vinh area (not from Vinh proper, but from the Vinh "area", which could be a lot of places). In fact he was born in a village in the same province as Vinh. 2. the place receives more funding as a result. You neither supported nor refuted the OP's statement that it is a "...drab...uninteresting place.", an piece of info of real value to travellers. What does a tourist care if Vinh gets more development funding?

Incidentally, I think you'll find that Vo Nguyen Giap was the first general of the Vietnam National Defence Army in 1945. When exactly did HCM ever carry a military rank?

I applaud your good intentions and hope that you will carry on editing with the best interests of the traveller at heart Regards, Seligne (talk) 14:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

A few hours ago I added a link to Google Street View as an example. Do you know wether this fits in the Wikivoyage policy? I mean we are using Open Streep Map more and more, but there is no Open Street View. So Google is the only place to go for that kind op information. On the Dutch Google website it says that they like to be linked to from other websites. So there should not be any legal problem to have those links in Wikivoyage pages. --FredTC (talk) 12:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Fred, I have no clue. Let me do some research. In the meantime, others will read this question and weigh in. Seligne (talk) 12:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

It is not a legal issue, but it does run afoul of our external links policy, which specifically says not to link to map services or external galleries/photo-sharing websites, among other things. Texugo (talk) 13:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

So what is the procedure to change that policy? --FredTC (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

The proper place for a policy change proposal would be at Wikivoyage talk:External links, but I wouldn't get my hopes up too much if I were you. I think it doubtful that the community would support us using the open-source map for locations but then essentially including a second set of map coordinates to google maps. Texugo (talk) 16:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Ha ha! I think you have stumbled into a minefield, Fred. There are several groups grappling with mapping issues. See [1] for one example. Seligne (talk) 17:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Well I think this is not a mapping thing. The links I like to add give photographic images (no maps!) at a certain latitude and longitude. Maybe Texugo did not click the link in the example. --FredTC (talk) 02:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I know what street view is, but it is from the same mapping site we avoid in other cases, and it is an external photo service, which we also avoid. Texugo (talk) 10:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. But with my knowledge of English I saw only words about maps in your reaction to "what is the procedure". So, I will prepare a post for Wikivoyage talk:External links and look forward to the discussion that follows. --FredTC (talk) 02:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

You might also want to add your current location here: wv:Wikivoyagers by location too... --118.93nzp (talk) 01:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I am right there on the list. Seligne (talk) 08:10, 7 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

In the list, Seligne, but not on the map because you have not chosen to make a listing with your latitude and longitude... --118.93nzp (talk) 10:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Why would I make it even easier for the authorities to find me? Seligne (talk) 09:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Maybe you can make a wee mistake with the ever-so-imprecise co-ordinates... --118.93nzp (talk) 09:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Good idea! Seligne (talk) 10:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Please do not use the format "xxkm" for values & units, such as your recent edit of Chiang Mai [2]. This is against widely accepted convention, and also as noted in WV Manual of Style "preference for separating the number from its associated unit by a single space".

Your edit of Vang Vieng contained a number of examples of incorrect formatting of units. To avoid repeating such mistakes please read Measurements

Hello - as per the MoS "USD" should not be used for US dollars.

You are right. "USD" should not be used when mentioning US dollars in an article on the USA.

Here is the first sentence from the relevant page in the Manual of Style:

This page in a nutshell: Prices should be listed in the local currency unless the local convention is to list prices in a foreign currency. Except for countries specifically excepted below, prefix currency amounts with the three letter ISO 4217 code for the currency in block capitals and no intervening space.

Kazakhstan is not a country specifically exempted. The ISO code for Kazakhstan tenge is "KZT". The ISO code for US dollars is "USD". "USD" is precisely what should be used when mentioning US dollars in Kazakhstan. If not, what should be used?

Seligne (talk) 07:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello! Sorry for writing in English. As you're an administrator here, please check the message I left on MediaWiki talk:Licenses and the village pump. Thanks, Nemo 19:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello, Seligne! Nice to see you online.

When you have a chance, please have a look at this edit and see what you think of it. I don't know about the incident, but perhaps you do.

Regards,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

All true, but a bit histrionic. Two Brit tourists were murdered. The Thai police, as is their wont, mismanaged the investigation. Two Burmese guest workers have been charged with the murders. They claim they were tortured into confessing. The Burmese and British governments are crying foul. THe case has yet to come to trial.

Having said all that, I would edit the content. There is not need to give the names of the murdered tourists. It appears that tourist numbers will drop, both on Ko Tao and in Thailand as a whole, but reliable counts are not readily available. If you like, I will happily edit the entry to preserve the facts, but tone it down a bit.Seligne (talk) 13:21, 10 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Please edit it as you see fit.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:22, 10 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

PS-I have been spending my time editing WP, in particular adding links to WV where appropriate. I think that WV leadership should encourage all editors to do the same in their respective areas of interest. Using our ties to WP to increase our exposure is a no-brainer. Seligne (talk) 13:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

My suggestion is "undo the change" but add some info in the "Stay safe" section.--FredTC (talk) 13:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanx, Fred. I would not know how to advise people to stay safe. I opted to add a caution box at the article head. See what you think. Seligne (talk) 14:06, 10 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

This is the first murder in Ko Tao and no more murders happend after that. If that situation needs a caution box, many more destinations need such boxes, including Chiang Mai. So, many more caution boxes should be added at many destinations, or maybe it is better to remove this one. The Ko Tao case is not solved yet, the mention of maffia in the contribution of the anonimous user might lead to some text in the "Stay safe" section, something like: "In Ko Tao there is also a maffia active, don't try to uncover their secrets, you may pay with your life for that". --FredTC (talk) 01:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Fred, you are certainly right about this not being the only murder committed in Thailand. This one appears to be a media sensation however. It's as if the long-standing corruption and gormlessness of the Thai police has reached its apex. I follow local message boards here (as I am sure you do, being a fellow CMer) and there is quite a controversy about whether people will/should visit Ko Tao. IMO, longer-term we should migrate mention of this to "Stay safe". I think that if we purport to be a service to travellers it is our duty to at least mention the current brouhaha. Recall that we added a caution box to Bangkok when the big demonstrations were on. Easy to remove when things die down. I say we leave it for a few days, see if there is any reaction. I see that neither Lonely Planet nor TripAdvisor has seen fit to change their content. Seligne (talk) 02:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Well, I still have a problem with the way you encounter this text. It sends out a message "Stay away", which is in the present situation unfair to the tourism on Ko Tao. Maybe it could be moved to the top of the "Stay safe" section. --FredTC (talk) 06:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Reportedly another person there just went missing. A snorkeller, Swiss. I think moving it down will mean it is lost to view. And frankly, I think avoiding the place at the moment might be a good idea. Think of it as an oil spill. Temporary, but still off-putting in the short term. Move the caution box if you wish. Shall we get one more opinion. Ikan Kekek, where are you? We need someon off-shore to give his view. Seligne (talk) 09:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry I never followed up on this. What's the situation at present? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:05, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Everything has gone relatively quiet until recently. Then, about 2 weeks ago, the trial of the two accused started. After only a few days of testimony the Thai police are shaping up as fools: they admitted to losing DNA evidence, then the top cop retracted that, then they admitted to not viewing possibly relevant video footage. To my unschooled eye, it is going to be a long, uncomfortable trial for the police as evidence of a massive cover-up is mounting. I would say that the atmosphere on the island must still be toxic (the trial is being held on Ko Samui, not Ko Tao), full of suspicion and recrimination. I have no evidence to back this up, just my gut. I also have no recent data on impact on arrivals. Best, Seligne (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Please refrain from making patronising and offensive comments. Such are most unwelcome, reflect very poorly on you and only serve to drive away potential editors. You should remember that Wikivoyage does not belong to you. —The preceding comment was added by 95.110.207.74 (talk • contribs)

Please, pray tell me what "patronising and offensive comments" I made. Seligne (talk) 11:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello anonymous user. If you have complaints about any Wikivoyage editor, you are free to post them. However, you should at least point out what you're talking about, as you seem to be editing from a dynamic IP address, and currently only have this one edit to your name. Your complaint is now nothing more than a vague accusation. Perhaps you'd like to create a username? My best guess would be this has something to do with the Krabi article, in which case Seligne is in fact right and the earlier IP comments are unnecessarily dismissive. Copy-editing is a useful way to contribute, but should be done without discouraging others. JuliasTravels (talk) 09:32, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

It's not that the earlier IP comments are unnecessarily dismissive, or that Seligne was unhappy with them: this is understandable. My comment was to note that responding with an insult in a subsequent edit summary was unconstructive, reflects poorly on the person posting them and discourages people from becoming editors. I happened across the page whilst searching for a related page on Wikipedia (with which I more familiar than here). Although I appreciate this is not Wikipedia as a wiki I assume there are similarities: guidelines at Wikipedia include about being civil and not biting newcomers. Edit summaries such as [3] are neither. Given such an edit summary was in reaction to similarly unconstructive edit summaries is hypocritical. A far more constructive, and in keeping with a community-written project such as Wikivoyage, would have been to post a comment on the relevant user page: this could have been something along the lines of thanking for the edits but advising against potentially antagonistic edit summaries. —The preceding comment was added by 95.110.207.74 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'm not going to become embroiled in this discussion, but it looks like the IP in question is no saint when it comes to civil edit summaries either [4]. Some of the summaries by the IP on that article would offend me if I had written the corrected content, especially some which refer to the language as 'child-like'. Either way, I think it's a moot point and we can all move on. James A ▪ talk 14:10, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I did not make that edit and edit summary.

Sorry, Seligne (talk) 11:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC) here. I am on the road and did not intend to log in anonymously from a restaurant gateway. I made no vague accusation. I made a declarative statement, "Arrogant editing comments are in poor taste." If you disagree with that statement and sincerely believe that it will discourage others, then God or Evolution, please help Wikivoyage. Seligne (talk) 11:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

You're misreading... I was answering the IP address that started this topic, accusing you of patronising and offensive comments ;-) We're in full agreement here. JuliasTravels (talk) 15:59, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I apologize for misunderstanding you. Thank you. Best, Seligne (talk) 09:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I've just been looking through the Thailand articles and I see that most of them have been pretty well single handedly constructed by you.

I think that's why they are pretty well barren territory for a copy editor like me and I would like to thank you for all the impeccable work you are doing. Will you stop after Thailand is complete, or continue on to neighboring countries? BushelCandle (talk) 16:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your kind words, Candle. I live in Thailand, so researching and editing is a way for me to learn more. I am interested in the entire ASEAN region, but I like to focus on places I have been, so I will take it slow. Thank you for your powers of observation and your interest. Seligne (talk) 18:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'd also like to thank you for your great work here on Southeast Asian articles. Also, great that you've stayed around despite having had to put up with touts, anonymous folks dulling down the articles, idiots vandalizing your user page on multiple occasions etc. etc. etc. more than anyone else. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:17, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, Ypsilon. It's a pleasure to contribute what I can. Seligne (talk) 18:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello Seligne, were you involved when they changed the standard layer of the mapframe template from Mapnik to Wikimedia? The Wikimedia version is very empty compared to Mapnik. I see no announcement in the Travellers' pub, as was done a few days ago on the Dutch equivalent of it, but it is already in use on en:Wikivoyage. --FredTC (talk) 03:25, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

Fred, I know nothing about maps and was happy to leave dealing with them in your capable hands. Thus, I know nothing about this. I just looked at the map and see that it is populated with lots of entries, but also some strange stuff like "Prime Horizon" in large letters south of the moat. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you. Best, Seligne (talk) 09:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thank you Seligne. I hoped you would know something about it. I mean the change that is already in use on en:Wikivoyage made this change into this. I think the new situation has much less information than in the old situation. So, I cannot imagine that this change did not haven any opposition, and I was curious about discussion about it. --FredTC (talk) 16:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

FredTC, I think that Yurik has pointed you to all relevant discussions. The problem of the Wikimedia layer having less information than the Mapnik layer has been discussed, and there is no perfect solution. Yes, Mapnik shows you a lot more things, but it is a bitmap layer that takes much longer to load, and tile servers for Mapnik are either very unstable or forbidden by the WMF privacy policy. Believe me, it is not the first time when this privacy issue pops up, and several people including me and Joachim has spent a lot of time on it. The bottom line is that there is no other solution than the Wikimedia layer. We should work on improving it, but we can't sit and wait until it is magically improved without our input. Well, of course, we can, but without any embedded maps at all. --Alexander (talk) 20:32, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

My go-to guy who always has good answers and knows what's going on is Ikan Kekek. You might turn to him for info. Seligne (talk) 17:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate the confidence but really couldn't add much information, as I don't know much about dynamic maps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

The dynamic maps are centrally managed. About half a year ago it was decided to move from the old, more detailled map, to the current, simpler version. If I remember correctly the reason was that the other map layers are hosted at some server outside the Wikimedia Foundation. Those third parties who hosted the map layers got the IP addresses of whoever was reading a travel article with an embedded map, and this was regarded as a threat to the reader's privacy. However, the other map layers are still accessible from the menu in the upper right corner. User:Mey2008 and User:Torty3 handle the dynamic maps and can probably give you more details. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:24, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Seligne. In the past you have removed from the Pattaya destination page attractions that are not in Pattaya, like Cartoon Network Amazone. However, such attractions and restaurants remain with Nong Nooch being a prominent example. Has there been a past decision on keeping them on Pattaya page? My intent is adding a statement like "Many attractions are marketed as being in Pattaya although they are in nearby Sattahip." and moving them to Sattahip which has already a destination page although hotels and restaurants need to be filled in.--13:23, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

You have identified a persistent issue. Lots of places like to cash in on the name of a place even though they are some ways distant. If a place is in Sattahip, but listed in Pattaya, it is easy to move it to the Sattahip page. WV does not have listings for every town, however. So what to do if there is a listing in Pattaya for a place 50 km distant for which WV has no article? I suppose one could create a new article for the place. Otherwise, just use best judgement. That's my policy. (It may not be the official one). Best, Seligne (talk) 16:03, 7 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I was worried that moves would start being reverted as against policy as soon as I had done something. Pattaya has a nice map with the attractions marked even as far out as Sattahip if you scroll the window. That is not much good if you print the page, though. I have to figure out how to do a similar map for Sattahip. I believe moving is fair if I add a remark about looking also under Sattahip. For a traveler the difference between attractions in Pattaya and Sattahip is significant: in Pattaya you probably just jump onto a cheap baht bus whenever you like but for Sattahip you need to organize transportation. Thanks.--Goodsoil (talk) 08:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I would second what Seligne said. It is in fact policy to move listings to the city where they're located. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I saw that you recently added items to sections in Tak. They were definitely detailed and quality contributions, but I was wondering why you didn't use the {{listing}} templates. I'm planning on converting all the items you added to use the templates, for benefits such as being able to add coordinates, Wikipedia links, etc., but it would, of course, be easier if they had been that way to start with :). Unless there's a reason you put them in that way? Thanks, ARR8 (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Dear ARR8. I am delighted to hear that you will work to improve the listings. Good job! I will tell you why I dumped them: I moved them, with some changes, from Wikipedia where they do not belong on two grounds: 1. WP is not a travel guide, and 2. they were completely unsourced (no cites), which is a cardinal no-no on WP. WV is where they belong. I knew that a good editor like you would come along to fix them. Best. Seligne (talk) 22:47, 14 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, that's pretty clear. The conversions are done. ARR8 (talk) 00:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

That was fast! Good work. Now there's a framework to build on. Seligne (talk) 01:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Seligne. It's good to see you editing again.

But about this edit, if almost anyone but you added it, I would be likely to summarily delete it per this site's external links#what not to link to guidelines. I guess your argument is that the URL actually isn't very useful but the hard copy is, but how would that be different in terms of policy or guidelines from promoting any local guidebook anywhere? I remember that when I used to travel in Italy, there was a local guidebook for just about every city and town, normally sold at newsstands and such. Should we be listing any that are good? And then, what about Lonely Planet guides and the like? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 18 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hello, IK! I spend all my time on WP these days it seems. Huge time sink given the need for corroboration. Regarding your question: I was unaware or have forgotten that guidebooks are verboten. But I must say that this one is exceptional. Most local guidebooks are drivel. This one is amusing, informative, striving, and chock full of local lore. Delete the entry if you wish, or amend it as you see fit. But if ever there were to be an exception made to this policy, this would be the one I would grant. Thanx, Seligne (talk) 16:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

I'll leave it, but I can't be sure what someone else might do. Maybe a comment to this effect on Talk:Kampot might be useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Care to make any comment at Wikivoyage_talk:Sex_tourism_policy#Re-start_discussion?, or elsewhere on that page? Pashley (talk) 13:39, 1 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

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