|
Archives
|
Express trains section
[edit]
- Moreover, the hat note says "This article is about local travel. For information on long-distance trains and buses, see Rail travel and Bus travel". I wonder what local express trains go through spectacular countryside landscapes (and what's spectacular about beaches?). I removed the one-sentence subsection. –LPfi (talk) 11:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- It is common to see interurban/intercity trains (which differs from longer-distance rail travel) go through spectacular countryside (there's one particular favourite of mine where I live), but I think they are far too much of an outlier to be mentioned here. Thanks for removing it, LPfi! --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 11:42, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Can adults from high-income countries be ignorant of public transportation?
[edit]This article had a shocking message. A well-travelled journalist had no experience of using public transportation, and avoided it altogether during her stay in New York City. Wikivoyage has guidelines such as WV:OBVIOUS which make the assumption that adult readers have some basic knowledge of the world. Should articles on public transportation, and destinations where public transportation is a useful method to get around, provide advice for people who have zero experience with these systems? /Yvwv (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, they should. I haven't read the article you linked, but there are huge swaths of the U.S. where either there is no public transit or locals have the idea that taking it somehow makes them poor or non-white (yes, that's true - some white people have said it to me unprompted). So many of them are scared or overwhelmed by transit systems like New York's and don't use them when they're here. To be fair, on weekends and sometimes very late at night, when most subway construction projects occur, even locals are often confused by reroutings and station closures, and mta.info does not always provide complete information (and sometimes, they can't, because incidents can happen in real time that require unplanned changes). Of course, when tourists take taxis in New York, they help some hard-working people make a living, and their taxes do more to fund New York than if they took the subway and buses (or walked longer distances!) more often, but it's certainly not necessary for people with reasonably able bodies to avoid public transit here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking as an American, there are many places in the United States where it's a status symbol to have a car and be ignorant of public transportation and there are also places where it's a status symbol to not have a car. Stuff is weird. But as someone who used public transportation in Indianapolis (where it's not so extensive compared to a lot of the Global North), some view public transportation as some kind of dire, last-ditch Plan C for how to get around and avoid it like the plague, sadly. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose this prejudice is a reason for the scaremongering on Public transportation#Stay safe. It reads like there would be pickpockets and robbers on any bus or train. I suppose some of the advice is appropriate for some destinations, so didn't cut down radically, but I think most of it would apply to any crowded place and is adequately covered in Travel basics and Stay safe. –LPfi (talk) 12:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- The cultural gap between the United States and western Europe might be a surprise to both sides; at least the current situation in international politics is proof of that. Even though driving is the normal mode of transport in the countryside of western Europe, practically all adult residents have some experience of public transit. On the other hand, many European city-dwellers have no driver's license even though they could afford training and a car. Maybe WV:OBVIOUS needs more clarification for which kind of prior knowledge should be expected from travellers. /Yvwv (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the policy can cover that. It says
- "That said, remember that obviousness must be considered from the traveller's point of view, not a local's. Leaving 15% tips in restaurants is obvious to Americans, and never sticking your left hand in communal dishes is obvious to Ethiopians, but visitors should be told about both."
- So needing to tell about public transport is something not obvious to a European, in the same way that having to tell about your left hand is unobvious to the Ethiopian. It is only when somebody notes the need, like here, that we are made aware, and in the future we know that the public transportation option needs to be emphasised a little more than we'd think necessary.
- And then we need to tell the "obvious" things somewhere, not in the city articles, but in Public transportation, with a mention in Travel basics and Transportation.
- Could those who have one foot in the cultures unused to public transport check those three articles (and perhaps Old towns and other related ones) for whether they are clear enough, with a suitable tone?
- –LPfi (talk) 18:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the policy can cover that. It says
- The cultural gap between the United States and western Europe might be a surprise to both sides; at least the current situation in international politics is proof of that. Even though driving is the normal mode of transport in the countryside of western Europe, practically all adult residents have some experience of public transit. On the other hand, many European city-dwellers have no driver's license even though they could afford training and a car. Maybe WV:OBVIOUS needs more clarification for which kind of prior knowledge should be expected from travellers. /Yvwv (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose this prejudice is a reason for the scaremongering on Public transportation#Stay safe. It reads like there would be pickpockets and robbers on any bus or train. I suppose some of the advice is appropriate for some destinations, so didn't cut down radically, but I think most of it would apply to any crowded place and is adequately covered in Travel basics and Stay safe. –LPfi (talk) 12:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Even in places with public transit, it's not uncommon in many parts of the Anglosphere (bar the UK/Ireland) where it's practically unusable (such as <5 services a day) – this too has a massive perception of people willing to use transit. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 05:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking as an American, there are many places in the United States where it's a status symbol to have a car and be ignorant of public transportation and there are also places where it's a status symbol to not have a car. Stuff is weird. But as someone who used public transportation in Indianapolis (where it's not so extensive compared to a lot of the Global North), some view public transportation as some kind of dire, last-ditch Plan C for how to get around and avoid it like the plague, sadly. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm in California, and I have lived in other parts of the US. For the most part, outside of a few dense urban areas, public transit is for people who don't have other options. It's for poor people, disabled people, people who lost their driver's license, etc. In a few places, it's for (older) students (if a seven year old takes the bus alone, people will assume the child is either lost or neglected and call the police).
- Two stories occur to me:
- Why we need to explain the basic mechanics: In the US, the main way for a tourist to use public transit is: Get on the bus, and put cash in the fare box next to the driver. In other parts of the world, the equivalent mechanism is: First buy your paper ticket from an ATM-like machine; when you get on the bus, you need to stamp your ticket. US tourists to Europe assume that having possession of the paper ticket is enough. This means that they have paid and think they've done everything correctly, and they end up getting fined for fare evasion.
- On the US really not getting it: I went to college in Grinnell. It's a small college town. Some years ago, I heard that they were trying to create a public bus system. The rules would be: Loop route, running weekdays from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., every 30 minutes, unless the driver got a call to pick up a rider with disabilities (e.g., to take a wheelchair user to the doctor's office), in which case the bus would be back on route whenever that errand was finished. From the POV of the average rider, this means that you wouldn't be able to use it to get to/from work, you wouldn't be able to use it to get to anything time sensitive, and you might have to wait for the bus in the rain/snow/heat for over an hour. In other words, it would sometimes be faster to walk to your destination than to wait for the bus. (They couldn't get the funding sorted, so in the end, it never happened.)
- WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do you think Public transportation#Get in handles the (former) issue? –LPfi (talk) 21:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe not? It's informative but not actionable. It lists multiple options but can't say which one(s) are relevant. There are a few bits that I don't understand (e.g., what's a "general NFC payment" app?), but mostly I understand it, and just find it unhelpful. By contrast, Public transit in Israel tells me exactly what I would need to know: get this app, pay this way, etc.
- United States of America#By bus 2 mentions local transit but doesn't say anything about paying. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I rewrote on "general NFC payment". I don't think there is any way to tell what options are available in a certain city, for that you need to consult the city articles, the local transportation website or local info. It could probably be improved, but I think the section is useful for getting an idea of possible options, so that you can recognise them when seeing local signage – and avoid naïvely riding with an unvalidated ticket.
- For the US, I suppose it should say something about the augmented risk for harassment or just a discomforting atmosphere in some public transport systems, like the current warning for the Los Angeles bus station.
- –LPfi (talk) 09:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it's impossible to be more specific in a general article. The most we could do, I think, is to say something like "You'll have to look up the specifics for your country/city/destination."
- I am not sure that the US deserves a country-wide warning about harassment. The half-dozen US transit systems I've used over the decades, mostly in California, have been ordinary experiences. Nothing was spectacular, but nothing was a significant problem. I would not hesitate to use any of them again, assuming that the service had a route running when and where I needed to go. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do you think Public transportation#Get in handles the (former) issue? –LPfi (talk) 21:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- While I think it's unfortunate that public transportation is not more widely accepted in the US, I don't think the stigma is entirely unwarranted and I would not want to encourage tourists to use it without knowing that there are risks. I agree with WhatamIdoing in that public transport is typically something you use because you can't use anything else in the US. Public transportation in the US is often uncomfortable and people can be rude or erratic in ways that make you feel unsafe. Americans talk loudly, they talk on the phones, they often have very private conversations on buses. They curse and yell at other passengers or the driver. People harrass you in New York's subways. If you have to use public transport, you can get used to these things to a point, but even then there are limits and locals will still feel uneasy. Travelers who don't will be more likely to feel uneasy or unsafe. Probably very few of the English WV readers are Japanese, but many of America's issues do not exist in Japan or would be very rare at least. Are most places in Europe similar to the US? Japan? Worse/Better? Overall, though, I don't think the "Stay safe" section is particularly fear-mongering. It's mostly very generic advice, which makes sense given it's an overview of the entire world of public transport. Maybe the last line is a bit too emphatic about emergency numbers. It's good advice, but not just for people who will use public transportation. For public transit, I'd say it's good if you're concerned or you know that the public transit you need doesn't have the best reputation, you're using it at night, etc. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's not just about cars being a status symbol. Cars are a status symbol in Singapore too (one of the 5 Cs), but the public transport is still clean and well-maintained, and as a local, I would advise tourists visiting Singapore to use public transport rather than renting a car. On the other hand, I know people from Shanghai who can afford to buy a car but choose not to have one because it turns out faster to use the Metro when you take the traffic jams into account. And to be fair, the Shanghai Metro is much newer than the New York City Subway, but still, it is much cleaner and much more pleasant to use.
- And even in a city like Chicago with decent public transport by American standards, it's still more convenient to have a car. The L trains are not that clean, and I often see people putting the soles of their feet on the seats without taking off their shoes. In my entire youth growing up in Singapore, I have never seen anyone doing that, and if you do, you can be pretty certain of being told off by your fellow passengers. And in my multiple visits to Hong Kong and Tokyo, I have never seen anyone do that either. So given the situation, I don't blame people who can afford it from wanting to drive instead of using public transport even in American cities with decent public transport. And even if you compare with developing countries, the commuters in Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok are still generally more considerate than American commuters. The dog2 (talk) 15:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I cannot speak for all of Europe, but over here I don't stay alert and don't carry only essential items when on the bus (other than perhaps late at night or in certain neighbourhoods away from home). The people on the bus are the same as in the shop or in the street and people are on the bus to travel, not to steal things. Buses don't offer any particularly easy pickpocketing, so any pickpockets too are probably on their way home or to work. Of course, if you flash valuables and leave them unguarded, then the pickpocket who may be there, could use the opportunity (a "hey, don't forget your phone" is still much more probable). If a local wants to talk, seize the chance, unless they are drunk or otherwise make you feel uncomfortable.
- We don't need to repeat the generic advice in every travel topic article, as we don't in every city article. There is some advice specific to public transport (know the routes and timetables etc.), but as noted in the article, it is relevant for safety only when there is a danger in the first place.
- The issues in the US should be mentioned in United States#Get around, and of course the public transportation articles should note that safety of public transport varies between countries and between cities.
- –LPfi (talk) 16:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- As an American, I basically agree with LPfi about public transportation safety – the people on the bus or train are the same ones as on the street, and I stay alert if taking the bus to a rough neighborhood at night but not on my daily commute to work. Statistically, US public transit is no more dangerous than other public places. Indeed, in some ways it's safer: there are usually other people on the vehicle, which deters crime, and your risk of death or injury from a traffic accident is considerably lower on a bus or train than in a private car. I think perceptions of dangerousness are often a reflection of the stigma associated with public transit and the people who use it.
- On the other hand, it is true that public transportation in the US is often dirty, inconvenient, or otherwise unpleasant compared to other countries. But that isn't an issue of safety, just an issue of comfort. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking for London (and probably for most large European cities), tourists will find that a car is a liability rather than an asset, but locals who live in the outer suburbs will often own a car. However, usng a car to get from town to town is often useful. For example, several years ago, my wife and I had a three week holiday in Italy - a week in Venice, a week in the countryside near Lucca and a week in Florence. We rented a car for the week that we were near Lucca as we spent time visiting a number of smaller Italian cities. WE picked the car up in Venice and dropped it off in Florence. Dos this put thngs into perspective? Martinvl (talk) 21:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't deny that there are problems in the New York City or Chicago mass transit systems (or those in various other cities I've visited like Boston, D.C., Philadelphia and the Bay Area), but I would still encourage visitors to take them. Taxis (let alone Uber/Lyft or limos) are so much more expensive and not free of risks. For the record, I've lived in New York for the great majority of my 59 years and have never had anything horrible happen to me on the subway, whereas I did have problems in elementary school with my classmates back in the 1970s and also had problems on the street in the 70s and 80s and have also had some scary close calls with drivers while walking. The scariest thing that ever happened to me on the subway was one day when I was commuting to a job in Queens, and a guy thought he was Jesus and yelled at all of us for not repenting, and I was waiting for him to pull out a gun and start shooting, but he did not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- IMO my experience with taxis (blatant scams, verbal confrontation, refusal to use meters) as a non-American have been far, far worse than I've ever had with taking public transit (pretty much next to none) in the US. Agreed with what you've said. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 05:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't deny that there are problems in the New York City or Chicago mass transit systems (or those in various other cities I've visited like Boston, D.C., Philadelphia and the Bay Area), but I would still encourage visitors to take them. Taxis (let alone Uber/Lyft or limos) are so much more expensive and not free of risks. For the record, I've lived in New York for the great majority of my 59 years and have never had anything horrible happen to me on the subway, whereas I did have problems in elementary school with my classmates back in the 1970s and also had problems on the street in the 70s and 80s and have also had some scary close calls with drivers while walking. The scariest thing that ever happened to me on the subway was one day when I was commuting to a job in Queens, and a guy thought he was Jesus and yelled at all of us for not repenting, and I was waiting for him to pull out a gun and start shooting, but he did not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking for London (and probably for most large European cities), tourists will find that a car is a liability rather than an asset, but locals who live in the outer suburbs will often own a car. However, usng a car to get from town to town is often useful. For example, several years ago, my wife and I had a three week holiday in Italy - a week in Venice, a week in the countryside near Lucca and a week in Florence. We rented a car for the week that we were near Lucca as we spent time visiting a number of smaller Italian cities. WE picked the car up in Venice and dropped it off in Florence. Dos this put thngs into perspective? Martinvl (talk) 21:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)