Talk:Thailand Voyage Tips and guide

This article was the Collaboration of the month for March - May 2010.

I wonder if perhaps we should consider a new banner here. I'm thinking perhaps something that represents Thai culture, like perhaps shots from the Grand Palace in Bangkok. The dog2 (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is there any photo suggestions that you have? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:06, 25 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

This one can be cropped into a nice banner (needs a -0.2 rotation). --FredTC (talk) 10:00, 25 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Done. I tried looking in my personal photo collection of the Grand Palace but it seems I don't have many good photos of it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:07, 25 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Alternatively, we could make a banner of a row of Buddhas like this one in Ayutthaya The dog2 (talk) 14:45, 25 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Done – that works too. Haven't been to Ayutthaya yet, but this banner makes me want to :-) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:07, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I think the banner form Ayutthaya is a good one. Let's see what others say. The dog2 (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

It could be sharper and better lit, but it is better than Banner 1. Was there a Banner 0 before? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I was thinking if maybe we should substitute Surat Thani for a major city in southern Thailand. You can fly directly into Ko Samui, so there is actually no need to fly to Surat Thani to catch a boat to Ko Samui. I think maybe Hat Yai should be in the city list instead. Or we could have Pattani if we want a city that can be considered the centre of Malay culture in Thailand, though it might not be safe to visit now due to the separatist insurgency. In any case, Hat Yai also has a large Malay community, so you can experience some aspects of Malay culture in Hat Yai too. Just walk around the streets of Hat Yai and you will see many Malay vendors selling food. The dog2 (talk) 21:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

There are strong warnings not to go to Hat Yai. So, I think having it in that list could encourage travelers to go to a dangerous place. --FredTC (talk) 07:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hat Yai is not an active warzone. Before the pandemic, plenty of Malaysian and Singaporean tourists were visiting Hat Yai, and there were regular commercial flights between Singapore and Hat Yai. You can do a Google search, and you'll find so many blog posts written by Malaysians and Singaporeans about their trips to Hat Yai. So in this case, I think the warnings from Western governments are way overblown. As far as terrorism goes, there might be one every few years, so while it may be less safe than Bangkok (which also had a terrorist attack, albeit in that case by Uyghur separatists who targeted the Erawan Shrine because of its popularity with Chinese tourists), it is really no more dangerous than the likes of London or Paris. The dog2 (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I’ll agree with the addition of Hat Yai as it’s the second largest city in Thailand and receives tourism from Malaysians crossing the border Tai123.123 (talk) 14:43, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I agree that the risk is very small that you can get troubles in Hat Yai. But the problem is that if you get troubles, your embassy might not help you, and that your insurance will not cover costs that are the result of those troubles. So, if you want to draw attention to Hat Yai by replacing Surat Thani by it, it should be combined with a warning. --FredTC (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

We already have a warning on the Hat Yai city page, so I think that should suffice. Surat Thani doesn't seem to have much of interest to travellers compared to Hat Yai. If Hat Yai was a warzone, I highly doubt there would be regular commerical flights from Singapore. And you get many tourists from Penang because it's only 4 hours or so away by road. The dog2 (talk) 13:40, 6 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

There's a picture of a telephone booth from 2009 in the article. Are those things still around in Thailand today? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

The picture in the article shows a type of booth that I could not find anywhere anymore. There was a period, some 6-8 years ago, that they started appearing at places that did not have a booth before, and they did not contain a phone. The only function they had, was a place to attach commercial posters (and probably there was also a problem to store them in storage of the phone company). Now there are still boots of a different type, less space consuming, but I did not test whether or not they are connected. --FredTC (talk) 06:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

If booths of the type shown in the article no longer exist or are extremely uncommon in Thailand today, we need to delete the thumbnail. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I tried to find an alternative but did not find one. So: yes, delete. --FredTC (talk) 10:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

In recent months, there is a surge of human trafficking reported in Cambodia, Myanmar and Thailand, where travellers (mainly Taiwanese travellers, Chinese travellers were more common pre-COVID) were tricked by fake job offers, travelled to and abducted in these countries, and forced to work for criminal syndicates like slaves. In response to the trend, I have issued warnings for articles of Cambodia (particularly Sihanoukville), Myanmar (particularly Northern Myanmar) and Thailand.

References (all in Chinese):

• w:zh:柬埔寨人口販賣事件, the article recording the surge on Chinese Wikipedia.
• Travel warning (highest level) for Cambodia, issued by Taiwanese MFA.
• Information page by the Taiwanese MFA.
• News report by Taiwanese investigative journalist The Reporter, covering the background of the surge and involvement of local Taiwanese gangs.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper am730.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao, illustrating the death of a victim.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao highlighting Hong Kong travellers have also fallen into victim, luckily most of them are successfully rescued.
• News report (in English) by The Diplomat, illustrating the seriousness of the trend.

Please check if there are problems of over-bolding or other grammatical problems, and feel free to add more on advices if necessary.廣九直通車 (talk) 06:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, that's a good addition (the warnings are in 'Work', for anyone else interested). If you haven't already done so, it might be a good idea to add these to zh.wikivoyage.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

This seems horrendous and frightful should definitely be mentioned. Thanks for adding them 廣九直通車. Agree with tt! that it might be a good idea to add this to zh.voy. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I'll keep on my sentry work, just like how I made my first warning on COVID for Wuhan (sigh it's almost 2 years and the pandemic still doesn't come to an end...). Will follow up on Chinese Wikivoyage.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, ThunderingTyphoons!: While the entire Chinese Wikivoyage is mostly empty (that's why I'm more focused in here), I've also Done with the warnings at there: see voy:zh:柬埔寨, voy:zh:泰国, voy:zh:緬甸 and voy:zh:西哈努克. Perhaps after there are no further comments, this thread should be swept to the corresponding article talk pages.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

We do have some cautionary info at Working_abroad#Stay_safe, Common_scams#Employment_and_charity_scams and Volunteer_travel#Be_wary. I wonder if those need to be expanded or if some links should be added either in this article or in those.

Certainly variations on the problem are fairly widespread. In my own travels I've encountered:

• • Filipinas trapped in exploitive jobs in Saudi Arabia (1980s, not sure if it still happens). She cannot leave the country without an exit visa and getting that requires the boss's signature. He says she's a lazy bitch & he's not signing. She says he beat or raped her, often both. My advice would be don't go anywhere where you'd need an exit visa to leave.
  • An agency charging Chinese nurses large up-front fees for placements in Canada on domestic servant visas taking care of disabled people, mostly Alzheimer's patients. Salary might have sounded good to a Chinese, but it was much less than you'd get working at McDonald's and hours were much longer.

Things I've only heard about include an Indian diplomat in the US mistreating domestic help (w:Devyani Khobragade incident), Fujian girls being smuggled to Taipei being thrown overboard when the Taiwan Coast Guard caught the boats [1], Snakehead gangs importing prostitutes to the US. Pashley (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here pickers of wild berries are imported from e.g. south-east Asia. They often have to take loans for the journey. The buyers of the berries arrange visa, travel, accommodation, intro, transport to the woods etc., but usually do not employ them. One year the harvest was weak and the pickers couldn't pay the loans. Volunteers helped them go to court to claim employment, but the pickers couldn't afford to stay during the multiple-year process, so they settled at terms they could live with. The berry-pickers are still not regarded employees, but to get visas for their labour, the buyers now need to guarantee a minimum income (and there are more eyes on lodgings, rents etc.). We have also had a number of outright illegal arrangements, mainly in other trades. The common denominator seems to be loans and threat of being expelled from the country for illegal work, in the cases where it isn't about direct slavery. For those who have an income at home, the risk of being expelled isn't a reason to remain in slavery, but if you have family you cannot feed without the foreign income ... The criminals may also threaten you and your family in your country of origin, especially if the justice is weak there. –LPfi (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I support these warnings. Last night I added caution boxes to Tachileik [2] and Myawaddy [3] on the same issue. And it is not just targetting individuals who speak Chinese. Malaysian[4] and Indonesian[5] were also targetted by the same group of fraudsters. This merits posting in English to reach as wide audience as possible. I do not think this is the typical "run of the mills" employment scams since those commons scams only want your money. The current scam hold you hostage and force you to work for them. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate these kinds of warnings. They are important. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Update: It seems that not only aspirant workers are falling victim, criminals are also targeting the average travellers. Some may recruit workers in local front companies and traffic victims en masse using company tours, others may use individualized vacation invitation to lure them to these countries (see this report by HK TV Channel i-Cable), all followed up by abduction. I genuinely don't know when will the criminals resort to random abduction if the situation worsens. Given by such worrying scenario, I have raised the warnings to the top of all these articles. Please advice if this is appropriate or they should be send back to stay safe, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also thanks to OhanaUnited for leaving proper warning, have upgraded these warnings to {{warningbox}}based on the template's usage guidelines.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I read that Laos may also be one of the destinations.[6] I propose adding the same warning to Laos. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 22:15, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The warningbox at the top of the article should be very brief. Most of the information could be in Work (not necessarily in a warning box), that relevant also for those not intending to find work in Stay safe. Some of this should probably be in Working abroad and Common scams. –LPfi (talk) 06:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for Mx. Granger's and your opinion. I have send these warnings back to "Work" and "Stay safe" (if work is not yet created). Though do you think a very brief warning on the top with link to the more detailed warning is OK?廣九直通車 (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The warning starts with: Telecommunication fraud, illegal remote gambling are rampant in parts of Thailand and its neighbours, Myanmar and Cambodia. How does this relate to te rest of the info in the warning box? --FredTC (talk) 06:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@FredTC: You mean the warning for Thailand? I make special remark on Cambodia and Myanmar, because Thailand is a major transit hub for human traffickers to transit victims from their country to their bases in Cambodia and Myanmar, though criminal bases do exist in Thailand (like the notorious "KK園區", not sure what's its English name). The remainder of the warning focus on common methods used by human traffickers and ways to avoid them. If you have concerns about coherence, please make your point clearer, thank you.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I mean the "Telecommunication fraud, illegal remote gambling" -part of the text. FredTC (talk) 09:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

For that part I tried to lay down the context and background. After all, criminals don't traffic and abduct victims for no reason, they do these because they need to recruit manpower for them.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I did get information that from 1 October 2022 till 31 March 2023 you may stay not 30 days, but 45 days without having a visa. Does anyone have info that confirms this? FredTC (talk) 13:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Jpatokal: with this edit you rephrased part of the section about money matters. The warning about counterfeit 1,000 baht notes lacks some explanation, I think. Do you have information in which situation you will receive 1,000 baht banknotes? The biggest banknote is 1,000 baht, so you cannot get them as change from a bigger banknote. Are ATM's or banks giving them? Right now I only can imagine that you can get them when a deposit is returned to you. --FredTC (talk) 09:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

That's right, it's very unlikely that you would get one from a bank or ATM, which means that tourists are quite unlikely to run into this issue. Fraudulent money chargers might be a risk, but while I've heard plenty of horror stories about Bali, I've never heard of this being an issue in Thailand. (YMMV.) Jpatokal (talk) 13:33, 11 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

The section is interesting, but there are a couple of contradictory-seeming statements. The first one is relatively simple to solve, as Indians are obviously not the second largest ethnic group in Thailand. But it doesn't seem possible to square Malays being 7-10% of the population with Theravada Buddhism being adhered to by 95% of the population. Also, per w:Ethnic groups in Thailand, there are 1.2 million Khmer in Thailand, though it's unclear how up-to-date the figures in that article are (c. 1997? Perhaps 2011?), and we might want to mention that Isaan people are Lao (more information at w:Isan people) but that Laos are a type of Tai [sic!] people who speak a language in the Tai family related to Thai. It all depends how much detail we consider relevant for travelers who don't prefer to just read Wikipedia for such content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:36, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

No-one has a comment? User:Roovinn, User:The dog2, User:WhatamIdoing, User:Othello95 or anyone else, any input? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I looked at three websites [7][8][9] and got three wildly different answers.

You could ask for help at the Wikipedia:Reference desk. If the question catches someone's eye, then they might track down a reliable source. w:en:Ethnic groups in Thailand and w:en:Demographics of Thailand#Ethnic groups both need to be updated (and to match each other). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps we could update without using percentages? I don't think I'm going to dig that deep to research this at this point, though I may indeed ask for comments from that reference desk, and thanks for the suggestion! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

That would solve a lot of problems, including ongoing maintenance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:30, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Here's my attempt. Not to come down hard on anyone personally, but we really need to avoid ignorant, offensive, ethnocentric remarks like this: "Generally isolated from modern society, each hill tribe adheres to a unique set of customs and values, some of which are considered too rustic for the modern world." Isolated? Come on, now! Hardly anyone can be isolated from governments and capitalism anymore. And considered by whom? Not Wikivoyage. We need to be better than this. My mother was an anthropologist, and the community we lived in could have been ignorantly described in similar terms and indeed Terengganu villagers in nearby villages and other rural Malays were described in just such terms by other ostensible scholars. Those who did so jumped to false conclusions about those rural people instead of listening, finding out how to ask the right questions, and thereby learning their wisdom and understanding truths about how they lived. My mother did listen and learn, because she did not come in with an ethnocentric, urban snob attitude and was humble, cooperative, hard-working and patient and refused to jump to conclusions without double-checking everything with the people she worked with, who were her sources. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm not expert on Thai demographics but yeah, based purely on the figures provided, it is not possible for Indians to be the second largest ethnic group when they are outnumbered almost 5 times by Malays. And yeah, I agree that we need to describe the hill tribes in a less prejudiced way, but there are still isolated populations that reject all contact with the outside world by choice. Perhaps the most famous example are the Sentinelese in India. They kill all outsiders who approach Great Sentinel Island where they live, and now the Indian government has made it illegal to approach the island. The dog2 (talk) 04:32, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, true about the Sentinelese, and when it's true, we do and should note it, but it's so uncommon today, and most peoples do not have the power to keep to themselves, as witness how native peoples in Amazonia have suffered. Plus no-one can avoid the effects of global warming, and that's why a native people in Colombia who had rejected contact with outsiders for thousands of years came out and shared their experience of living in harmony with nature and their warnings to others. And even the Sentinelese, to my understanding, are hostile to outsiders in large part precisely because they had experience with contact and it hurt them, for example by giving them a disease that killed many of them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@The dog2: (North Sentinel Island, not Great Sentinel Island FTR). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Roovinn: Where did you get the information that most Thai Indians are Punjabis. Wikipedia says they're mostly South Indians, and the famous Hindu temples in Bangkok are Tamil. The dog2 (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hello there, and thank you for your question!

Here's a preview from a book (perhaps the only book out there) that highlights that bit of information: [10]

Sikhs form the majority of Thai Indians, and a lot of them follow traditional Punjabi customs.

Interestingly, many Hindus from Punjab (Pakistani side) migrated to Thailand many years ago and they form the majority of Hindus living in the country. Not surprised at that fact, honestly.

As for the famous Hindu temples, I believe you're referring to this one, right? Roovinn (talk) 01:23, 5 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, this is the main one. The dog2 (talk) 03:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Is there any practical significance of a religion such as Judaism not being officially recognized? If so, and if it's worth explaining, we should explain it. If not, it seems to me that we needn't mention it at all. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

No, I don't see a point – this isn't an enclyclopedia. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't know how regulation religion works in Thailand, but to my knowledge, anti-Semitism isn't really a thing, and Chabad has a presence in Thailand, so Jews can practise their religion without any issues. If this is anything do go by, in Singapore, your religion has to be recognised by the government in order to be represented at interfaith events (though unlike in Thailand, Judaism is officially recognised in Singapore), so if I had a make a guess, it might be something similar. The dog2 (talk) 15:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

So no real practical significance. I will remove the remark. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm not shure how to tell this in English (which is not my native language) but I miss some practical tips about the usage of English in Thailand. I give an example: 3 girls came in a simple restaurant that had (among other things) cheese sandwich, ham sandwich and vegetable sandwich on the menu. One ordered a cheese sandwich, the second ordered a ham sandwich and the third said "and I want a veggie one". When they served the order, the third girl did not get a vegetable sandwich but something else, something that sounds like veggie one (fet chi wan), and she said I did not order that. I told her yes you ordered fet chi wan, and that is what you got. So, the staff of the restaurant did probably not speak any English and only had learned how the menu items sound in English and know what then order to the kitchen. So it can be important for the traveler to know that one should order only what is written in the menu and not some kind of synonym for it. FredTC (talk) 09:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply