Talk:Athens Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

On the Athens page district list the district is called Plaka, Monastiraki, and Thissio, but the linked district page is only called Plaka. Shouldn't it also be called Plaka, Monastirak, and Thissio on the header of the district page? Apparently I can't change it with the edit function. (WT-en) Sailsetter 12:45, 31 March 2008 (EDT)

If there is someone who can add my [[Image:Acropolis-athens.JPG]] into the article in an acceptable size I'd be thankful (of course only if the image is considered acceptable and helpful to Wikivoyage). --(WT-en) EBB 17:41, 1 Aug 2004 (EDT) Otherwise delete it, please. --(WT-en) EBB 17:44, 1 Aug 2004 (EDT)

It looks like someone replaced the whole Athens section with a page that was blank except for a line complaining about spam. This seems like an obscure motivation. Anyway, I reverted back to the previous full version, which I understand is the proper thing to do. First time I've done this so hope I did it right. (WT-en) Sailsetter 10:53, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Welcome to the world of wikivandals. Yes, you did it correctly, but it's even easier if you just click on the [undo] link. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:56, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, but I was following the instructions on Project:How_to_revert_a_page, which doesn't mention Undo, and I didn't notice such a link anywhere. Is this documented somewhere? (WT-en) Sailsetter 12:26, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

I've revised the Eat section to:

• take out the section on Psirri. I think listing restaurants by neighborhood is a good idea, but I don't think it's useful to just describe a neighborhood as having interesting restaurants without naming any.

See, the main page is supposed to provided pointers to the districts. "Want to find hip bars and restaurants? Go to Athens/Psirri." (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:31, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

• remove the listing for Orizontes, which sounds too much like an ad and in fact uses the same wording as is found in several other places on the net. If anyone wants to put it back, please note that it's very expensive.

• minor additions to section on souvlaki and beginning a list of restaurants by neighborhood, starting with Plaka. (WT-en) Sailsetter 15:04, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

I've started to move some restaurants I put on the Athens page to the district pages, which I gather is where they are supposed to be. I have to say though that I really dislike this way of organizing things, both as a contributor and a user. I think in fact it's the worst single thing about Wikivoyage. (WT-en) Sailsetter 18:53, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

I agree, but do you have any better alternatives? Seriously. Remember that the Chicago guide comes to 469 pages when printed. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:31, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

I've replied here (towards the bottom currently.)

"Expect to pay about 20 euro by taxi during the day, and 30-35 euro after midnight and before 5am.". How long is the ride? I live in Athens and taxis are never that expensive. (WT-en) Dimitris 14:52, 13 Jan 2005 (EST)

Actually, 20 euro for a taxi ride from Athens city proper all the way to Elefhterios Venizelos sounds about right, if not more. It's a pretty long distance, by Athens/Attica standards, plus don't forget the expensive tolls on Attiki Odos motorway, which are added to the cab fare. (WT-en) skyduster 00:21, 22 August 2006 (EDT)

How much would be ride from Athens centre to Sounio and back? Do I need to add some tolls? --(WT-en) Kyknos 06:48, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

I just discovered removal of details on BestWestern from the Sleep section, with a comment "Too much Best Western, and not specific".

Later, someone removed sublist indents from Zinon and Elysium, making first bullet (Bestwestern itself) totally useless:

• When everything is overbooked in advance, consider BestWestern chain.
• Zinon (details on Zinon...)
• Elysium (details on Elysium...)

(compare it to the version just before the removal)

I'd like to advocate that removed piece was useful--although I'm sure it can be abridged with someone's help.

When everything is overbooked in advance, consider BestWestern chain (www.bestwestern.com).

OK, this first phrase remained intact.

The chain operates in growing economies (like Armenia or Eastern Europe):

I agree this small piece is hardly relevant to Athens--I just moved it to the Hotels article.

seriously refurbishes interior of hotels built dozens year ago, introduces western management -- and then sells it to US/Canadian/Australian travellers. This results in low rates and a good service.

here's why I list BestWestern only for cases when everything else is booked: first, these hotels are based in old buildings; second (it's not mentioned--but we need to add this), majority of guests are elder, retired people from the above countries.

Booking: Normally, BestWestern hotels should be booked via chain's web site -- and they send detailed email confirming booking (but not take prepayment -- only take credit card details for guarantee purposes). Hotels themselves accept direct contact for booking, but can't give detailed written confirmation of booking you may need for visa arrangement.

This piece is essential when you travel from outside of EU: you need official detailed booking confirmation from hotel for every day of your stay in Greece for arranging a visa. And if your cashflow is sensitive to advance payments, details on prepayment also make sense.

--(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:54, 10 February 2007 (EST)

There are about 50 BW hotels in Greece. This is very general and should not be in 50 different articles. It is probably not even specific to Greece. --(WT-en) elgaard 19:44, 12 February 2007 (EST)

I rewrote the Zinon listing to include the key details from what I considered generic for BW, and tried to make it as practical as possible. I also removed BW group as useless. Let me know if you see more room for improvement. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:43, 13 February 2007 (EST)

I've removed the comments about BW hotels' handling of visa documentation for two reasons. First, the wording clearly implies that non-EU citizens need to apply in advance for visas to visit Greece, which isn't true. I'm not an EU citizen, and I've traveled to Greece frequently for many years, including recently, without ever having to apply for a visa in advance. The present wording is likely to confuse travelers who don't need visas for Greece into thinking that they do. Any comments about non-EU citizens needing visas should specify, either in the current text or by reference link elsewhere, exactly what non-EU citizens need them, and this specification should be on the basis of researching the current regulations.

As Greece#Passport and visa requirements currently states, A valid passport is required of all non-EU and non-EEA nationals, and most are also required to obtain a visa..

For Russian and CIS nationals, Greek embassy or consulate takes at least 3 days to process visa request, and requires a fax with a hotel booking confirmation. I am not sure, however, that we have enough space in Greece to detail every aspect of visa requirements (or it's feasible to keep it up-to-date)--maybe we should ask someone else. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:37, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

Second, if we want to warn those who do need visas that they need to be sure to have properly documented hotel reservations, I think it would be much more useful to put this warning in the general Greece section, with, if necessary, a warning specifying that certain hotel chains are a problem in this regard, rather than putting it under the specific hotel in the Athens section. The problem may exist also with other hotels, so this is something that should be put in a section which all travelers needing visas are likely to read, not a section which will be read only by those who happen to want to stay at a particular hotel. (WT-en) Sailsetter 10:46, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

The requirement to present many papers including booking confirmation in order to get visa applies to most (all?) EU countries. It's not in European Union yet, but I also doubt that we are able to keep every aspect of visa issuing there up-to-date.

As to stating booking confirmation specifics for BestWestern chain rather than for individual hotels, I originally tried that but faced removal of all details including visa issues [1].

For me, it's still unclear how we can put this info as a chain-specific in this article, and in Greece. Do you have any ideas?

Either way, I'd like to undelete the removed piece as soon as possible: people use this guide, and it's an important thing that is completely missing now. Would you mind if I undelete it ASAP? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:37, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

The passages removed were:

Zinon (BestWestern chain) ... For non-EU citizens, the hotel itself can't provide official booking confirmation for arrangement of visa--you can only print email confirmation of booking from BW chain's global web site.

Elysium (BestWestern chain) [17] [email protected]. Cheap-and-chic boutique hotel, 16 rooms. For non-EU citizens, same problem on official confirmations for visa arrangement as with Zinon.

Doesn't the above at least imply flatly that Non-EU citizens need to arrange in advance for a visa for Greece?

That just isn't true, despite what the Wikivoyage Greece passport requirements page referred to above says which ought to be changed because it's wrong, or if not technically wrong at least very misleading: according to the Greek Ministry for Foreign Affairs [2], visas to Greece are not needed by citizens of the non-EU countries Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Andorra, Argentina, Australia , Brazil, Brunei, Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Costa Rica, The Holy See (Vatican), Croatia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Israel, Japan , Malaysia, Mexico, Monaco, New Zealand, Panama, Paraguay, San Marino, Singapore, South Korea, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela, or Nicaragua. Given this, do we really want to include statements implying that "all [or most] non-EU citizens must obtain a visa"? It may be technically true that the majority of human beings alive in the world today would need a visa to go to Greece, but looking at that list of countries, it's not true that most people who actually would go to Greece are going to need a visa, and certainly not true that all of them do. I think what we should do is put a link to that Greek foreign ministry page on that Greece country page passport section, where it logically belongs, and attach any information about difficulties in getting Visas for those who need them to that section of the Greece page. What do other people think? (WT-en) Sailsetter 17:56, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

For first passage, I propose the following re-wording:

For those needing official booking confirmation for arrangement of visa, the hotel itself can't provide it--you can only print email confirmation of booking from BW chain's global web site.

If that's OK with you and others, I will think of the second passage as well.

And I've just added a link to Greek Ministry for Foreign Affairs in Greece. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 18:19, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, thanks, that sounds good to me, though I haven't looked at it yet. I'll look at all this again in a week or so and post here if I have any more comments or suggestions. (WT-en) Sailsetter 19:25, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

OK, take your time. For now, I've restored the visa confirmation warning with the edits we agreed upon. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:45, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

As the following piece was removed from GetIn:ByPlane section,

• by metro to the city centre for €6 (be prepared to spend up to 20 minutes for change from metro to railway: metro is not going end-to-end)

does it mean that this delay is no more a case, and is resolved in some way? Would anyone comment on the present situation? Thanks. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:26, 10 February 2007 (EST)

This was changed in March 2006 by 84.254.15.30: http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&diff=prev&oldid=234683

Could anyone confirm that the removed piece is not actual any more? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:56, 13 February 2007 (EST)

It means the metro now reaches the Airport. It used to be that only the Suburban railway reached the Airport. (WT-en) Dimitris 02:15, 24 February 2008 (EST)

This page could do with a outline map shown the main districts and some key locations.

Yes, it could. Are you volunteering? :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 11:21, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

There are currently way too many districts with next to nothing inside, so for starters, I've merged together Plaka/Monastiraki/Thissio and Omonia/Exarcheia. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:25, 1 October 2007 (EDT)

BTW, isn't it time to define district borders for Athens? Right now they are quite blurry for non-experts in the city. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:13, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

I've removed the link to KTEL since it leads to a Greek language page. So far as I know there isn't an English language KTEL page, but if there is, feel free to put it there. (WT-en) Sailsetter 15:04, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

Please don't remove links to official sites -- things like bus schedules are still usable if you don't know Greek, as long as you can puzzle out the destinations. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:56, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

Although on second look, that KTEL site appears to have no usable information in any language... (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:02, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

It seems to be impossible to get reliable information about either the opening of the New Acropolis Museum or the status of the old one anywhere, including the new museum's web site and the Greek Ministry of Culture's web site. I've updated the listing with information found on gogreece.about.com, a site which I've found generally reliable. If anyone has definite information on the status of either museum, please add or revise. (WT-en) Sailsetter 11:29, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

The old one is definitely closed and will not be opening again. For the new one, your guess is as good as mine. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:46, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

I suggest getting rid of the links to individual District pages in the Districts section, copying the information on the linked pages either to the Districts section of the Athens page or to the appropriate Athens page sections (restaurants, safety, etc.) and then deleting the individual district pages. This would correspond with almost the universal practice of guidebooks: have a chapter on the city, with a section listing all restaurants by district, then all hotels by district, etc., and not have different sections for each district, listing hotels, restaurants, etc. together in separate district sections. As it is, we have both these types of organization in conflict, and the individual district pages have information that many people aren't going to see -- I probably looked at the Athens page twenty times before it occurred to me to look at some individual district pages where I found listings that sometimes duplicated, and sometimes supplemented, information on the Athens page. Information on shopping, restaurants, hotels, etc. should really all be in one place, not spread apart with some on the district pages and some on the Athens page. (WT-en) Sailsetter 19:27, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

Athens is an example of a really badly districted city, but it's definitely too large to cover in a single article, so the correct solution is just to finally nail down the districts and move all the sights/restaurants/etc into them. Please take a look at the Project:Huge city article template for how these things should work, and eg. Singapore or Chicago for working implementations. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:46, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

I've removed the advice "Check [3] for timetables." I know that in general official sites shouldn't be removed, but I think this is an exception, since the link is given as a means for checking ferry schedules, and in fact that site contains no such information. The site belongs on the Greece page, but not in this section, where it is irrelevant, and not under such a mis-identification. I see that the link is already at the top of the Greece page, which is where it does belong. (WT-en) Sailsetter 11:25, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

The list of museum names sometimes had The before the name, sometimes The and sometimes omitted The, so I just took The out everywhere. I couldn't find a standard for this and I don't think it matters what it is, but it should be consistent. (WT-en) Sailsetter 16:27, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

I've deleted the listing for Marina hotel since it's Wikivoyage policy not to post completely negative reviews; listings are supposed to be of recommended establishments, even if some drawbacks are mentioned. (WT-en) Sailsetter 19:21, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Hi all. The 'history' section of Athens is poorly written with incorrect information. Although I don't know much about Greek history (although know Athens very well), can we please use the wikipedia history section on Athens? Leaving it the way it is, is a great injustice, especially considering how important Athens's history was for Western civilization. Thanks. --(WT-en) MarinaK 20:41, 29 August 2008 (EDT)MarinaK.

Unfortunately, using Wikipedia content here would be a licensing violation, as our licenses are not compatible. Please see Wikivoyage:Copyleft#Can GFDL content be used on Wikivoyage? and Wikivoyage:Why Wikivoyage isn't GFDL. Please do feel free to revamp the section with your own prose, though! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:23, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

I think it would be a bad idea anyway to incorporate Wikipedia articles, since they're addressed to a different type of audience than Wikivoyage. The criticisms of the Wikivoyage Athens Understand section (which is where the history is) are justified; the best solution would be to rewrite it with a view to giving travelers who plan to stay a few days in the city the overview they need to put what they'll be seeing around them into historical context. (WT-en) Sailsetter 10:05, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for clarifying. --(WT-en) MarinaK 13:36, 2 September 2008 (EDT)MarinaK.

I've reverted the district format to what it was before MarinaK's revision, since I believe the previous version is the Wikivoyage standard format for district sections -- see for instance the district sections for London or Paris. (I would have posted this comment the first time I changed it back but Wikivoyage became inaccessible due to technical problems before I could do it.) (WT-en) Sailsetter 22:16, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

Hi. I'd just like to clarify that the only district revision I changed was correcting the format and grammar to make it more consistent. As an example, I changed this:

the Acropolis - the ancient "high city" of Athens, crowned by marble temples sacred to the city's goddess Athena

To this- The Acropolis— The ancient "high city" of Athens, crowned by marble temples sacred to the city's goddess Athena.

All I have changed is ensuring capitalization, periods at the end of the sentence, to make it a legible sentence. If this is incorrect, please let me know. Thansk --~~MarinaK.

Your changes to the text are fine, but the problem is that in the course of changing it you also changed the internal link formatting so that each district name appears twice, once in plain black text, immediately followed by the name again highlighted as a link, that is, it should look like this:

The Acropolis

but your revision made it look like this:

The Acropolis Acropolis

which is non-standard and looks awkward. Look at the different versions using the history page to see what happened. I've fixed the internal link formatting in the current version so the district links look like the first example above again, but I've left all your other changes in. I've left the em dashes in, though I don't think they're the best format. But there seems to be no standard policy on this -- on other pages in this type of sections, I've seen em dashes, hyphens, spaces, etc. (WT-en) Sailsetter 15:43, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

→ Project:One-liner listings. Per policy, these one-liner description phrases are not sentences, should not be capitalized, and should not have periods. We don't have consensus regarding which type of dash to use—for more on that topic see Project:One-liner listings and even more background. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:08, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Hi Peter. I've written in the Wiki one liner listing page about this. I'm not sure why full stops after a one line listing aren't allowed? Thanks --(WT-en) MarinaK 13:31, 3 September 2008 (EDT)MarinaK.

Thanks for explaining. I've been writing the district name twice as when I print it in a pdf, it doesn't appear. However, I'll stick to the one name from now on! Thanks! --(WT-en) MarinaKMarinaK.

I've deleted the listings on the Athens page for the Grande Bretagne and Electra Palace hotels since they are listed respectively on the Syntagma and Plaka District pages. If those listings need editing or additions, please change them there. There was some discussion of this, I think in Travelers Pub, and it was said that the policy for a huge city is to have listings on the district pages. I know there are still some hotels on the Athens page, but I've been trying to move them all to the district pages -- help would be welcome! Meanwhile, my understanding of the policy is that we should keep the Athens Sleep section for general remarks and put specific listings on the District pages. (WT-en) Sailsetter 12:25, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

At this point I've moved all hotels from the Athens city page to the District page. Hopefully future contributors will now make their additions to those district pages. (WT-en) Sailsetter 11:06, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

I've added a page under Attica for Spata, where the main Athens (and Greek) airport is, but it isn't clear to me if the airport ought to be listed there or under Athens -- any ideas? The advantage of putting the airport on the Spata page is that then you could list hotels near the airport there. Otherwise they'd have to be listed on the Athens page, but they're not really in Athens. (WT-en) Sailsetter 18:43, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

I've removed the bike rental links because they weren't listings. Wikipedia is meant to be useful when printed out; accordingly, it shouldn't have links in the form of you can find the information here. If anyone wants to put these links back in, please do it in the form of listings as specified in Wikivoyage style documentation. (WT-en) Sailsetter 15:12, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I suggest that this article meets the criteria for Guide Status. I propose to change the status after allowing for discussion. If anyone disagrees, please describe what specific further revisions you think would be needed to qualify for that status. Thank you. (WT-en) Sailsetter 15:26, 26 January 2009 (EST)

It's not quite there yet. The relevant qualification for guide status in a huge city like Athens is that all district articles must be of at least usable status. That would be a good goal though! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:30, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Thanks for the comments. It looks like we have to work backwards from the regions. (WT-en) Sailsetter 18:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)

The Stay safe in Athens is the longest Stay safe section on Wkitravel as far as I can tell, why is this the case? It's longer than similar sections for Kabul, Tegucigalpa and Baghdad combined.

Some statements do not seem to be supported by facts-

"Be careful of different politically charged areas of Athens. While comparatively a minority compared to leftists, there are some far-right areas of Athens where the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party is strong." What are these areas of the city that are so politically charged? Presumably the author knows where these areas are if they decided to write that statement of fact. But yet the author chooses not to tell us. Then there is another similar statement - "On the other hand, some parts of Athens are the domain of the far left, including anarchists. In some of these areas the government, especially the central government has virtually no authority." Again, which areas are not under the control of the government? I believe the author is just writing these statements based on rumors and doesn't really know what these specific areas are.

The section is also not written well-

The statement says "There is also absolutely no reason that a tourist will travel to Acharnon and Liossion Street and the triangle between Peiraios, Athinas and Sofokleous street." Of course there is a reason that a tourist will travel to those areas - because they choose to. Does the author mean 'no reason that a tourist should travel...'?

Here is another statement with no supporting facts-

Special care should be taken in crossing streets in Athens' chaotic traffic, even if you have the walk light. Alot (sic) of the time, even if the green man is showing, there are cars with their green light showing they can drive through that way. The street crossing lights function normally in Athens. There are no crossing lights that approve you to walk and also give a green light to drivers directly in your path. Again, where is the location of this crossing? Presumably the author must know where these malfunctioning crossing signals are. Perhaps they can notify a police officer or the city of Athens to have them corrected? But again, the author refuses to tell us the location of another dangerous area.

Today's picture of the day on Commons is of Athens. Should it be used here? Pashley (talk) 11:20, 28 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, why not? There's enough empty space in the article. I notice that there are a lot of left-justified thumbnails, which is against usual Wikivoyage custom, but that's a tangent here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I think this is a better banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

As pointed above, current districtification is way too large and current districts are mostly in and around the city centre which all can be merged into a single district. I know some little about the city so I can help with re-districtification if anyone is up for the task. --Saqib (talk) 20:45, 21 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Persons who might help: User:Gobbler, User:Tsandell. Then there was a Greek guy who was fluent in Turkish and had traveled a lot but I cannot remember his user name. ϒpsilon (talk) 22:35, 21 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

User:Handrian, perhaps? Vidimian (talk) 01:04, 22 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Exactly he! Thanks! :) ϒpsilon (talk) 10:26, 22 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Acropolis, Plaka, Omonia, Athens/Syntagma_Square and Athens/Psiri are all around the center. We could keep Omonia, and merge the rest since they are on a walking distance. Omonia is also close to the rest, but it is more correctly placed in the same district with Exarheia, and it will be too far for someone to walk from Exarheia to Acropolis. Acropolis entrance is on the opposite side of the hill than Plaka, so you should walk all around the hill to get there, it will be a 20 minutes walk, and the walk from Syntagma square to Psiri it will be also 20 minutes. Handrian (talk)

Omonia square along with the northern section of the centre is a seedy district and we say that. Please read the related w:Omonoia, Athens. I just noticed we have missed the main tourist areas in Athens during the summer: it:Vouliagmeni, it:Glyfada, and Elliniko. I disagree with what I read about Athens/Pangrati and Mets. Nowadays it's not a pleasant residential neighbourhood. I also would be very cautious of the sentence "The district of Metaxourgeio represents a unique neighborhood in the historic center of Athens, and has become a bohemian enclave as well as a haven for art and culture". Sorry but it sounds like a classic tourist trap and nothing more. In my opinion we'd rather delete that comment. Athens/Zografou is the wrong title for Kaisariani neighbourhood. That said I suggest the following districtification as any Athens resident do:

• Central areas: two or three articles for central areas, no more. 1) Syntagma square 2) Acropolis and 3)Omonia.
• Southern suburbs: Including Vouliagmeni, Glyfada, Elliniko, Kallithea, w:en:Voula, w:en:Varkiza etc. See a map here w:el:Νότια Προάστια Αθηνών
• Eastern suburbs: including Kaisariani and if you like Zografou, Holargos, Agia Paraskevi
• Northern suburbs: w:en:Kifissia, w:en:Marousi w:en:Penteli, Greece
• Western suburbs: Well, West Athens main attraction is Daphni Monastery in Chaidari neighbourhood

--Gobbler (talk) 00:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Gobbler, however, I will add another separate section for Pireaus and for Mesogeia. So it could be:

• Historical center: Including Acropolis, Syntagma, Monastiraki, Plaka, Thisio (page created)
• Center: Including Omonia, Exarchia (page created)
• Southern suburbs
• Eastern suburbs
• Northern suburbs
• Western suburbs
• Pireaus
• Mesogeia: Including Gerakas, Pallini

We must also make a map of the districts of Athens

Handrian (talk) 17:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

Handrian and Gobbler: If you guys are done with districtification, should we move content from previous district guides into new ones? --Saqib (talk) 17:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Handrian already did most of the work. I'll check it more carefully next days --Gobbler (talk) 19:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sure. BTW assuming there's no official district named "Historical city", can we rename Athens/Historical center to "Old Athens" ? --Saqib (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

We can use "Old Athens", or another name, it's the area where most of Ancient monuments are, the area of ancient Athens. "Old Athens" seems ok to me. Handrian (talk) 02:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

We seem to have districtification, but no map. User:Ypsilon? PrinceGloria (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Maybe. BTW map master Saqib actually started this thread, and he said he even happened to know the city, so... :) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

ACTUALLY, now that I browsed through the district guides, I saw that we have very few "see" entries". The Centre has only 7, while Old Athens have 15, and other districts mostly have nothing. I believe the basic reason for disrictification - i.e. distributing unmanageable numbers of listings - was missed. It seems that somebody overzealous with recreating the reality created "empty" districts that were then merged in the process above, but still the districtification seems unnecessary.

I would therefore move to MERGE ALL DISTRICTS, as the action around their articles, or lack thereof, signifies that they are not likely to fill up with listings. Moreover, a more compact singular article will be easier to edit by a casual editor/reader.

BTW, I believe includind Piraeus as a district of Athens is a bit of a long shot. It is not a part of even the greater Athens administrative region within Attica, but rather has its own one. It is a major destination with many draws of its own (although poorly covered by us as of now), so I'd move to separate it fro Athens at this opportunity. PrinceGloria (talk) 06:24, 19 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

[User:Ypsilon|ϒpsilon]]: Yes I've been to Athens numerous time and so know this city a little bit geographically but since our distrification is not official, I have had some issues while my attempt to draw borders for some of the districts thus I decided to put it on hold for a while. User:Handrian: Your comments regarding PrinceGloria concerns are required. And PrinceGloria, Even though politically Piraeus doesn't falls inside Athens administrative region region but still it is practically not far away from central Athens so I would say lets keep it as district of Athens. Sometimes its fine to have exemptions like this one. --Saqib (talk) 10:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

If we do away with districts as I propose, there is no question of Piraeus being a district of Athens. My problem with it being a district is the centering of the MapFrame - there will be two separate clusters of POIs. Piraeus has enough content (potentially, not now) to stand on its own and I am willing to contribute. PrinceGloria (talk) 12:44, 19 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Athens is huge city and will need a static map not a dynamic map so no issue of MapFrame/POIs you talking about but anyways, the districtification is still open so lets see what we came up with. --Saqib (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Athens currently is a city of less than 30 See items distributed over multiple districts (although the vast majority is in only two, describing immediately neighbouring areas walkable together. If Hamburg, Oslo or Lisbon can do with a single article, I see no reason for Athens to be districtified. The districtification implemented as proposed has left stubby articles that are of not much use and only confuse travellers making Athens look more complicated than it is. It may be large area-wise, if the entire metropolitan region is considered, but this should not be of concern when districtifying. I believe we should call the experiment a failed one and now try the idea of a unified article and see how this pans out. PrinceGloria (talk) 16:30, 19 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

As far the material is concerned, I can agree we don't have enough material so we can for now abblosh the distrcitification and merge back content of distrcits into main article. The article can surely be districtified in future when we have more content. If others have objections, then can raise them here. --Saqib (talk) 15:07, 21 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

The areas are really huge, e.g. Athens/Southern suburbs covers a really big area, even bigger than Athens/Piraeus, with a lot of places to go and see. Maybe we should try to add content to the existing articles, but for now most of them are almost empty. It is true that most tourists visit only the center of Athens, and Pireaus, but it's good to have some info for other areas, and it's better to be on separate articles since these areas are far from the center. Handrian (talk) 04:07, 23 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Handrian, let's be realistic. There is lots of stuff to visit in every large city and they tend to be spread over the entire area. But for the last year and before as well, the POIs simply have not been added. There just isn't enough manpower to do this. Same holds true for many other large cities which could have as well had multiple districts, but we keep them in singular guides because there isn't enough content to distribute among multiple articles.

For now, let us make the article usable for the traveller, because it is really bad. If we have stuff to add, let us add it to a common, well-written article and see when it overflows with POIs. I've started the merge at User:PrinceGloria/AthensMerged trying to comment on every edit so that you can see and join the process at any moment. PrinceGloria (talk) 07:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

There's one issue with your draft. You still kept district (Old Athens) and at the same, incorporating POI's in Athens. Well I don't think thats acceptable. Either you will have to completely abolish districts or otherwise have no POI's in the main article. --Saqib (talk) 07:51, 23 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

It is WIP. I removed districts one-by-one as I integrated them not to get lost. Check now. And pls join in, there's a lot of cleanup to do. PrinceGloria (talk) 08:02, 23 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

[unindent]I'm no expert on Athens, having been there only once so far, and I see the point in undistrictifying the city, but Piraeus should be separated, just as Newark is from New York City. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Dear All, can we agree on the singular article and keep on improving and adding content to it so that we do not pull in different directions? PrinceGloria (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sure. Your draft looks good to me. Since there's no more districtifying so I'm okay if we're moving Piraeus out of Athens hierarchy. --Saqib (talk) 14:31, 27 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

User:Handrian, will you be OK with adding your contirbutions related to non-central Athens to a unified article? —The preceding comment was added by PrinceGloria (talk • contribs)

I'm OK with adding to the unified article. However, I think it will be a little confusing to have e.g. Piraeus as a separate article and Moschato or Palaio Falilo as a part of Athens. Also e.g. Vouliagmeni is more than 20Km far from Athens center, 50km from Ekali or Acharnes, I think that's too far. To have a restaurant or a museum next to another that's 50km away, I don't know if it will help a traveler. Anyway since we'll go with the unified article, I'll help with that. Handrian (talk) 15:47, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Great, thank you! Could you check if there is anything missing in the unified article in my userspace, since I see you have been editing since then. Once you say it's OK, let's make a switch and move it to the namespace. PrinceGloria (talk) 16:48, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Please copy paste rather than switching/moving. --Saqib (talk) 16:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

OK, so can I do it now? Seems like everything everybody wanted to do is done, and we'd better prepare for the number of changes we may have to make in the coming weeks ;) PrinceGloria (talk) 11:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)Reply

Done. Could you guys please double-check if everything works as expected and redirects are properly in place? I have discovered many multi-level redirects and fixed many of them to go to Athens directly, but there may be more + O might have missed/fumbled some.

We also need Athens/Piraeus to be moved to Piraeus over a redirect, which only an admin can do. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)Reply

Moved accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)Reply

i removed inaccurate and false informations such <<a While many sporting venues were outside of the city - in various locations throughout Attica>> and <<in the year 529, Emperor Justinian ordered Athens' academies to be closed>> and a user revert many times my edits. The first is false i'm Athenian and i know that and the second is a popular myth and many scientic articles agreed that is a myth.--2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 20:52, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Starting a discussion on the talk page is the right thing to do when an edit war is starting, rather than continuing the edit war. It would be good if you would post some links in this thread to scholarly (presumably historical or archaeological) articles that definitively prove or at least show by a preponderance of the evidence that in the year 529, Emperor Justinian didn't order Athens' academies to be closed, and the empire's intellectual center didn't move to Constantinople. I take no view on this, but in an argument about history, citing reputable scholarly sources is a good idea when there's a disagreement among Wikivoyage editors. As for the point on sports venues in Attica, it was already conceded. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

In a fast search i find the article in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy <<In 529 the emperor Justinian ended the funding of the revived Neoplatonic Academy. However, other philosophical schools continued in Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria, which were the centres of Justinian's empire.>> Thats true emperor Justinian ended the funding of the revived Neoplatonic Academy didnt close it. if needed i will search for more and scientific links--2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 21:11, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

OK, did the academy close after he ended funding for it? If so, saying that he didn't close it is hair-splitting and the quote you're giving seems more supportive of User:Ibaman's version than yours. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

The emperor Justinian ended the state funding of some schools not only for revived Neoplatonic Academy, and not only in Athens, he didnt order the closure other schools remain open without state funding of course. --2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 21:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

For the record: I happen to be going through a Byzantine Empire phase of reading and learning, and that includes Michael Psellos and Procopius of Caesarea and Gregory of Nazianzus and modern commentaries on them, such sources, and please forgive me for not bothering to argue such historic minutiae that happen to be very fresh in my memory with unknown IP numbers who don't care to register as bona fide users. Ibaman (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Emperor-Justinian-close-the-revived-Platonic-Academy --2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 21:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Because you are reading for the byzantine(original Roman) period of our history(I'm Athenian) check if you want the article of this issue in that orthodox site with scientific sources http://www.oodegr.com/english/paganismos/sxoles1.htm --2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 21:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

<<While it was no longer politically significant, its intellectual reputation gave it a special status, until,....>> Athens has a special status even in Ottoman period another false information--2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 21:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

A source(in greek but with translator i hope is ok) for the special status of Athens under Ottoman occupation https://www.sakketosaggelos.gr/Article/3150/ --2A02:587:4400:2F5:9C9:7FDB:35F1:6D79 22:24, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

How long did the academies in Athens survive after Justinian cut off funds for them? I should also say that Ibaman's sources seem rather more scholarly and authoritative than some Quora link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:50, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Ibaman, if you would be so good, give a few quotes with citations. I don't think the fact that a new user is an IP makes it useless for you to present clear refutations of their statements. I was an IP user for a couple of years before I registered. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

To produce actual quotes I'd have to take some time to review a couple of books. I recently read some histories by Simon Sebag Montefiore - he really digs Justinian the First and Theodora and Belisarius - and I'm positive I stumbled on this subject in one of these books. However, our interlocutor should by now agree this information labeled as "false and innacurate" is not so; Justinian wanted to phase out paganism and enhance the Christian state, as he wanted the Empire's best intellectual men in his court, and in this context "ending funding" is equivalent to "shutting down" in a broad sense, per WV:Be fair and Avoid political disputes. We in Wikivoyage avoid promoting political sides or whitewashing the past in our prose. I'll check the links mentioned. However I fail to see what the special status of Athens during the Ottoman Empire would have to do with Justinian I. Ibaman (talk) 22:50, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

There's no rush. I'm satisfied with what you posted above, but if you feel so inclined, a specific citation could wrap this up. I think the point about Athens' status during the Ottoman Empire was a different point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

It's fair to say, this History section sometimes feels very very short; over the years I have resisted the temptation of adding Socrates and Plato and Aristoteles and Sophocles and Pericles and Alcibiades and Hadrian and Julian the Apostate and all the notable figures that walked that ground and deserve to be mentioned. But the brevity limits of a trave guide must always apply. Ibaman (talk) 23:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Some of that could go in Greece#History or at least in Ancient Greece#Understand, especially if it can be related to things a traveler could see or experience. Greece's history is surely very important. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:49, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

• I might add at a personal level, to our Athenian user, we in Wikivoyage live in a permanent high alert against touts, spammers and vandals, and it would be great if you created an account to plunge forward on the community. Local knowledge is always welcome. Ibaman (talk) 01:38, 5 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Thucydides is the correct translation of the Greek name Θουκυδίδης--2A02:587:4400:2F5:F1B7:BDA6:5FAF:F33B 00:58, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Is it misspelled anywhere? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Faliro Sport Pavillion.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:41, 13 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Reason: No freedom of panorama in Greece. This photo is on the page. Do we want it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Eh? Yes or no? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Probably just best to keep it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for commenting. Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

:) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:01, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

In the Stay Safe section, there is a note stating "visitors should always carry their passport or identity documents". In the following paragraph, we are then warned about the danger of pickpockets on the metro. There seems to be a bit of a contradition here. The reason I bring this up is that two years ago my passport was stolen by pickpockets on the Athens metro (nothing else was taken, just the passport). Wouldn't I have been better off leaving the passport at the hotel and just carrying a photocopy? I understand there is a law that requires everyone in the country to carry a valid form of ID with them at all times, but what is the worst case scenario? Being fined for not carrying your passport or having your passport stolen by pickpockets? Based on my experience, I'm inclined to say the latter. I wasted about two full days of my trip due to not only needing to get a new passport from my home country but also having to get my Chinese work visa reissued. That might not sound so bad but it was a real hassle for my employer in China who was also on holidays at the time. For more details on how on got my Chinese work visa back, see my post on Tripadvisor (my post is post no. 5). STW932 (talk) 07:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I propose rewriting the text as follows: "visitors should always carry colour copies of their passport or identity documents (but avoid carrying the originals if possible due to the risk of theft)". STW932 (talk) 07:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

• Strong Support SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Sure, go ahead and make the edit. I'm really sorry you had such a hassle! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I don't know the Greek law about ID's, but if a copy is not valid, there should at least be a warning about getting fined when you carry a copy and not the original. In my country (The Netherlands) a copy is not accepted, and you can be fined for having only a copy. Maybe the whole "Stay safe" section needs some rephrasing, as there is duplicate info. --FredTC (talk) 10:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Would a photo ID like a New York State driver's license or non-driver ID that also shows the holder's address be sufficient to establish one's identity to Greek police, if you leave you passport in a safe in your hotel? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I found some official advise from US government here. It says "Carry your passport or some form of photo identification at all times". --FredTC (talk) 11:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I've made the change that I suggested. Please feel free to make any further amendments that you deem appropriate. I'm also not really familiar with how the law operates in Greece. STW932 (talk) 15:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

So the answer is probably yes, my New York State non-driver ID is probably sufficient. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I would never carry my passport around with me, especially somewhere like Athens. I have been to Greece a few times and have never been asked for ID. Davidbstanley (talk) 19:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Athens Acropolis Museum (28337763772).jpg

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I've read this tip but it seems it's not possible to do that online. Maybe this could deserve a clarification, if you know more. Thanks :) Valerio Bozzolan (talk) 12:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

http://athenstourgreece.com/f-a-q/info/hours-entrance-fees-archaeological-sites-museums-greece has a table of entrance fees in summer and winter.

Could someone please extract what's useful into a table in the article? Thanks, 2A02:586:A3E:47FB:4FDE:A651:B224:D5A1 22:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please update hours and fees. No-one will make a table; each listing needs its own information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply