Talk:Working abroad Voyage Tips and guide

Contents

Thought I would start here before creating this article. Anyone else think an article about working abroad would be useful?

I'd like to get some ideas before starting. I view this as covering jobs abroad something like Mark did?

I figure it could cover the follow:

• Cost of living
• Jobs typically available overseas
• Tips for finding an apartment
• Visas
• How to have documents authenticated by a foreign embassy (I'm currently undergoing this process)
• Expat life

Anyone want to throw their two cents in? - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 02:39, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

I was just thinking about this yesterday. Plunge forward and I'll try to pitch in. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:39, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

That's when I started thinking about it. I didn't want to waste my time and have this VFD'd later, because others thought it wasn't worth it, but I like your judgement so I'll plunge forward. - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 02:43, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

• Japtokal,

As you're the house resident expert on Asia. What would you recommend about "Get in and around". I don't want to get into the trap of making this a Eurocentric article. - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 04:22, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

Planes fly to Asia too, I don't think there's anything particularly Eurocentric about that... (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:31, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

I meant something more along the lines of locations which are better to start off in, For example: Fly to Bangkok and then taking a train to Pattaya? Is train travel easier there than car travel, or are busses the way to go in Asia?

My expertise in the transportation department solely lies on American and European trains and planes. I can score huge discounts by knowing which airports to go to in the EU during a specific time of the year, but if I was going to Asia I'd be screwed. - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 04:42, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

Nitty-gritty like this isn't a question of Working abroad though, it's just cheap travel — and I was writing something about this just yesterday at Tips for flying. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:33, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

We currently have "A local resource for finding jobs in Germany is JobScout24 or Jobs de. In France you will find jobs on CadrEmploi and in Spain on infoempleo.", where all the names are linked. I'd say that, as in the Teaching English article, we should refer people to the Work section of country articles for local details, and these links should be moved to those sections. (WT-en) Pashley 11:20, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:53, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Done. (WT-en) Pashley 23:25, 19 April 2008 (EDT)

This article is currently rated Outline but I am about to upgrade it to Usable. What would it take to get it to Guide? It might then be a good candidate for featuring on the main page.

I think the main "Jobs available" section is pretty much complete but the other main sections, "Prepare" and "Expat life", need attention. Pashley (talk) 13:43, 18 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Is healthcare in North Korea really "almost non-existent"? I know nothing about it, but generally communist countries have invested lots in education and healthcare. Is North Korea an exception? --LPfi (talk) 07:45, 8 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

In any case I think it is better to use a politically more neutral example, if there are suitable ones. I suppose there are several developing countries were public healthcare is rudimentary, foreigners are too few to have their own facilities and evacuation is the best option. Or is North Korea the most probable destination for working abroad among such countries? --LPfi (talk) 07:50, 8 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

My experience — China & the Philippines in this century, several other Asian countries in the last — is that reasonably good health care is widely available, but some is priced out of the reach of many locals & perhaps of budget travellers. I've had various things handled competently; my most serious was gall bladder removal but a friend had a collapsed lung fixed. That said, when I needed major surgery I went home.

I do not think N Korea is at all a good example. Living in China, I met many people who had worked in S Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, even a few for Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia (country), etc. None for N Korea. Pashley (talk) 18:04, 8 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

I agree that North Korea isn't an ideal example. I've read that its healthcare system is better funded than other countries with similar GDPs, maybe for the reason User:LPfi gave. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

The current page banner is nondescript, and of poor photographic quality. I suggest a new one. /Yvwv (talk) 00:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Vermont governor signs bill to pay people $10K to move to state and work remotely. Are there other such deals? I know at one time Canada made immigration easier for people willing to work up North, Hawaii had deals for teachers, many cities or regions offer tax breaks to attract industry, ... Pashley (talk) 13:42, 2 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

This story claims WeWork, who we mention at Working_abroad#Digital_nomad_work, are enforcing vegetarian standards on employees, no meat at company events & no expense reimbursement for meals containing meat. I'm tempted to remove them from the article; I do not want to support a company that mistreats employees. What do others think? Pashley (talk) 03:22, 23 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Tempted to support. Imposing your beliefs on employees though removal of financial support in doing your job is a bit much. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:57, 23 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am not sure. I suppose there are many companies that do not offer (good) vegetarian alternatives at in-house meals and events, so boycotting this might be double standards. I also do not agree offering only vegetarian food is mistreating employees (I have no reason to believe the vegetarian food is sub-standard). Restricting reimbursements does seem patronising, but who am I to judge. Their stand (if true) is of course worth mentioning. --LPfi (talk) 08:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I don't see any reason to remove it. It's not for us to enforce our own views on dietary restrictions – we can just give the listing and let travellers decide if that setup is acceptable to them. As a comparison, I would imagine there are probably lots of companies and schools in India that don't provide meat, organizations in the Middle East that refuse to reimburse for pork or alcohol, and so on. I certainly wouldn't want to remove listings from articles on that basis. It might be worth mentioning these restrictions in the article, though, if true. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

The article says that arriving by air on a "maritime crew" visa invites legal trouble. Is that so? I've understood crew routinely is flown between their home and the ship (in whatever port), on routes long enough that they are entitled to vacations. Also, if the job is in regional shipping, somebody from outside that region would usually arrive by air in the first place, why restrict transport options to ships? I suppose there are real problematic scenarios, but is it common that maritime crew visas require arriving by sea? --LPfi (talk) 15:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

At least the other way around it seems to be problematic. When flying to Sydney I talked to an English lady who flew there to work on a cruise ship going around the South Pacific as a hairdresser. She was very worried she wouldn't be allowed into Australia without a work visa (the tourist visa explicitly prohibits any kind of work), despite the fact that she was going to work onboard, not in the country. --ϒpsilon (talk) 16:40, 18 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

It's problematic in Australia, per [1]. Other countries may differ. K7L (talk) 17:18, 18 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

So that visa is primarily for those already on their ship, it seems (our article says there are no ferries to Australia, and crew will hardly arrive on a cruiser). Presumably there is another visa for those boarding their ship after arriving. --LPfi (talk) 17:47, 18 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Freelancer Loves Being Able To Barely Scrape By Livelihood On Own Schedule Pashley (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Also 3 Things No One Ever Mentions About Being A Digital Nomad Pashley (talk) 08:13, 26 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

NPR story: The Affluent Homeless: A Sleeping Pod, A Hired Desk And A Handful Of Clothes seems related to Working_abroad#Digital_nomad_work Pashley (talk) 13:40, 24 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

We mention this company under Working_abroad#Digital_nomad_work. A CBS story: WeWork IPO filing shows it's losing nearly $5,200 per customer. Pashley (talk) 22:50, 14 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Barbados could soon allow remote workers to stay and work on the island for one year. Pashley (talk) 00:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

The tropical paradise of Mauritius is offering a long-term visa for remote workers Pashley (talk) 10:08, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I do not think this involves a visa. Hawaii’s new remote work program will pay for your round-trip flight Pashley (talk) 03:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

The 15 best digital nomad visas from around the world Pashley (talk) 03:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thousands apply to be a Finn for 90 days in migration scheme Pashley (talk) 05:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

47 Countries With Digital Nomad Visas Pashley (talk) 08:19, 28 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

The Digital Nomads Did Not Prepare for This Pashley (talk) 01:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

The current banner is a somewhat dreary depiction of commuting. What about this other banner of commuting instead (formerly at Ho Chi Minh City). —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I prefer the current banner, only because the latter banner doesn't really give me that much of a feel of working abroad compared to the old one. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:51, 10 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

The advice to refuse transport by the employer is awkward. If I am going to a foreign country to work, I would certainly appreciate somebody meeting me at the airport (or whatever), informing me on practical details up front and getting me to my accommodation. Using their own car feels natural. Is this uncommon for real employments? Wouldn't I look odd if I insist on us taking a taxi instead, and one that I choose without knowing local practices? Is this step a serious risk if I otherwise have made my homework? If they are criminals, can't they just as easily force me into a car on the back yard of the workplace? –LPfi (talk) 08:33, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

To me (after working abroad for decades) the whole Working_abroad#Human_trafficking_and_modern_slavery section looks like mostly paranoid overstatement. I'd cut it to about three sentences. Who is this advice meant for?

Refusing their transport seems like dumb advice; if they're crooked it won't save you & if not it is a silly thing to do. Pashley (talk) 10:08, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

There was a recent case of Taiwanese people being tricked into call centre scams run by criminal gangs in Cambodia. I think this advice is mainly aimed at them. I don't know the details, but my understanding is that these people are offered a legitimate job in Cambodia, but upon arrival in Cambodia are instead coerced into scamming people as part of these bogus call centres. And it was especially an issue for Taiwan because Cambodia diplomatically recognises China and hence does not have a Taiwanese diplomatic mission, and while China offered consular assistance to the Taiwanese victims (since China claims sovereignty over Taiwan and hence, considers Taiwanese citizens to be Chinese citizens), the Taiwanese government's stance is that Taiwan is a sovereign country and the Chinese embassy has no right to provide consular assistance to Taiwanese citizens. The dog2 (talk) 20:36, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think the advice to refuse your employer's transportation seems absurd, at least when stated in such broad terms. I've worked abroad on four continents and the employer has always arranged transportation from the airport for me when I arrived. The idea of refusing would not have crossed my mind, and it's not advice I'll follow in the future. If there's some more specific and useful advice that's applicable to the situation in Cambodia, we can give that instead. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

I believe there are similar scams about job offers in EU, where the to be employed people (mostly from South-East Asia and Eastern Europe, I think) end up as sex slaves. I don't know how the recruitment, transport and keeping them enslaved are organised. –LPfi (talk) 12:45, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

We now say

"Bring a solid chunk of cash – several months' salary is wise".

Is this still good advice? If moving from one EU country to another, you have no trouble paying bills and getting money from your bank account as needed. If you cannot pay bills from your account (or that'd involve huge banking fees), then cash may be good for many expenses, but your landlord and local insurance company may not want cash, and neither may some other businesses. Raising limits on your credit card may be as important as bringing cash.

–LPfi (talk) 07:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Is the US now a much less attractive place for working or studying abroad? My guess is yes.

Universities in several countries -- France, other Europeans, Canada -- are actively recruiting scientists whose programs in the US are being hit by Trump's funding cuts. Canada is also recruiting health care staff.

Are either of these worth mentioning here? I'd say both, Pashley (talk) 21:16, 20 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

Where do people think is a good place to put this information? I think this will be useful for people to know just in case they need legal documents to be notarized and sent back to their home countries while travelling abroad. Your country's embassy can provide this, but if I'm not wrong, you can look for a notary public if your country has no diplomatic post. And Commonwealth countries have what we call a "justice of the peace" who can notarise some documents for domestic use. The dog2 (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

How likely is it that a traveller needs a notary? I expect the likelihood of needing one depends on your home country - what documents need it. Although I occasionally need to get my signature witnessed, I have been able to ask anybody that knows me to do this; I don't think I have ever had to get a document notarized. There are also probably loads of complexities about foreign notaries being accepted in your home country. In general, I would suggest phoning the nearest consulate and asking advice. I think that notary services are not something we need to list, but if there is some local quirk to be aware of, then it should go in the country's cope section. AlasdairW (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, my answer is "nowhere." User:The dog2, as a U.S. citizen, I have to get a document notarized at most once every 10 years on average, yet you think we should yet again increase the length of the United States article by adding information of notarization. Could you please stop and have some self-control?! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:01, 16 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I too think this is incredibly niche to mention. //shb (t | c | m) 23:14, 16 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

+1. Ground Zero (talk) 00:14, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Here's a fun fact about notaries in California: The Spanish cognate, notario, is an important type of legal specialist. Having your will drafted by a (Mexican) notario is a very good thing. But in California, a notary public is basically a secretary who took a six-hour class and passed a multiple-choice test. As a result, California no longer allows people to get their wills notarized (it's banned, not merely non-required), because so many immigrants thought that they were paying for a really valuable legal service, and the family got nasty surprises after their loved ones died.

On the general question: I don't think this is a useful thing to add. It's rarely needed while traveling, and if you do need it, you probably need specialized advice. For example, if you need a notarized signature for home-country real estate purposes while you're abroad, then you need to find, in your current location, a notary service that will be acceptable to your home country. But if you're updating your will during a long stay, you need someone that will be acceptable to both your home country and your current country. Providing a recommendation might encourage people to do something that doesn't actually work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:15, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Possibly it could be added to Working in the United States. If somebody is in the US for a year or three, it is much more likely that they will need a document notarized to be accepted in the US, and so the difficult question of foreign acceptance is avoided. Also the Working in article is only 13k, and needs expansion in other areas. AlasdairW (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also, if you are living abroad but you still have assets back home, you might need notarial services for things like delegating a power of attorney to a family member back home. The dog2 (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Would you? If so, though, that's not specifically about working or studying abroad. I'd like some comments from fellow workers (i.e.,

not members of the leisure class or people who are purely business owners) in the U.S. on whether they've needed to have anything notarized for work. I don't ever recall doing that. I believe the last time I had to have a document notarized was in connection with opening a corporate bank account, so I'd argue that if we decide to cover notarization in the U.S. at all, it should be in a "doing business in the U.S." article, but I still doubt its inclusion would be necessary, and I hope no-one wants to start that article right now, with all the totally unnecessary, manufactured chaos that our "dear leader" is producing. Maybe "avoiding trade with the U.S." would be a more useful article...(but it's not about travel). Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:15, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Never for work, though if you work in real estate or some other legal-adjacent field, you might visit a notary frequently.

I have needed to have documents notarized a few times. A durable power of attorney might have been one of them. However, in California, I believe that having two witnesses for the power of attorney is also acceptable, so it might have been something else. It's been more than a decade since I needed a notary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:51, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) You could be living abroad for work. But anyway, I was thinking more of notarization in general rather than in the U.S. specifically. There is the Hague Convention of 1961, and signatory countries will generally grant legal recognition to documents notarised and apostilled by another signatory country, with a few exceptions (e.g. India does not legally recognise documents notarised and apostilled by China). The dog2 (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you work in real estate, you probably wouldn't be reading Wikivoyage for this kind of advice anyway. //shb (t | c | m) 23:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

This discussion has demonstrated convincingly that the use of notaries is such a rare and exceptional occurence that notary services should never have been stuck into a country-level article. The attempt to do so shows a lack of understanding of what Wikivoyage is trying to do, or a disregard for the project's objectives, especially when it is a pattern of behaviour. Ground Zero (talk) 01:58, 18 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree it's very unusual for a traveller to need notary services on the road. However, I think a brief discussion of apostille certificates might be reasonable in a general article such as Visa, Working abroad, or Living abroad. I've needed an apostille twice in the process of applying for work visas. I don't see a case for mentioning this anywhere outside of the context of visa application processes, though. Issues like delegating a power of attorney are not really travel advice, but drifting into the realm of general life advice. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:37, 20 April 2025 (UTC)Reply