Hello Brycehughes! Welcome to Wikivoyage.
To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page.
If you are a Wikipedian then you may notice some differences in policies and the style of our articles. These include:
- NPOV → be fair (not quite the same thing!)
- be bold → plunge forward
- Village pump → travellers' pub
- External links → We do not use a separate external links section, but incorporate primary links only into the text itself.
- sandbox → graffiti wall
- stub tagging → Article status
It may also be very useful for you to check out Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians. If you need help, take a look at Wikivoyage:Help, or else post a message in the travellers' pub or on my talk page. Thanks for contributing!
Thanks for plunging forward, but one thing that we don't plunge forward on on this site is changing the names of countries (or cities, etc.). This is a practical guide for travelers, not a repository of official names. Please read Wikivoyage:Naming conventions for the Wikivoyage guidelines and reasoning. Thanks a lot.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Pagebanners
[edit]Hi, and thanks for deleting dead links. But in this case, do you really think it's better to have nothing than a flawed pagebanner? I don't, and I'm inclined to revert your edit, pending replacement of the banner with another banner. However, as you're editing in good faith, I'll gladly hear out your argument.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: The one I deleted (if it had been added properly) isn't the proper size. I'm fine with either one, but the size of the one I deleted would appear to be an issue, no? Brycehughes (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- I see you've reverted my edit on Halden now. I am confused. If you remove the 1= banner parameter, then it defaults to the Wikidata banner. The one I removed was not being picked up due to it being a full URL and thus an invalid parameter, therefore it was already defaulting to the Wikidata one. Moreover, even if it had been correctly formatted and thus picked up by the template then it would have been awfully mis-sized. This leads to a question... if the Wikidata banner and the explicit parameter banner are the same, is there a community preference to be explicit as opposed to using the Wikidata default? Brycehughes (talk) 13:49, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Somehow, the banner wasn't showing up for me. Now it is. Yes, we normally use the Wikidata banner, except when a discussion produces a consensus not to. As for the other one: Yes, the size is an issue, but the solution is to replace the banner with something, not with nothing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:55, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: Right, so that's the same issue (with Whyalla): I wasn't replacing it with nothing, I was simply removing the extraneous, invalid 1= parameter that wasn't working. That is, my change affected nothing visually – it was already defaulting to the Wikidata banner, and after my change it continued to default to the Wikidata banner. See what I mean? Brycehughes (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. I think there was just something not working properly on my end last night. Sorry for the inconvenience. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: No worries at all. On my end I could probably improve my edit summaries. I can totally understand how looking at the diffs of unusual edits like these by a seemingly inexperienced editor might trigger alarm bells. Keep up the good work. Brycehughes (talk) 03:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- I shall endeavor to improve. Thanks for your understanding and for your help! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:30, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: No worries at all. On my end I could probably improve my edit summaries. I can totally understand how looking at the diffs of unusual edits like these by a seemingly inexperienced editor might trigger alarm bells. Keep up the good work. Brycehughes (talk) 03:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. I think there was just something not working properly on my end last night. Sorry for the inconvenience. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: Right, so that's the same issue (with Whyalla): I wasn't replacing it with nothing, I was simply removing the extraneous, invalid 1= parameter that wasn't working. That is, my change affected nothing visually – it was already defaulting to the Wikidata banner, and after my change it continued to default to the Wikidata banner. See what I mean? Brycehughes (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Somehow, the banner wasn't showing up for me. Now it is. Yes, we normally use the Wikidata banner, except when a discussion produces a consensus not to. As for the other one: Yes, the size is an issue, but the solution is to replace the banner with something, not with nothing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:55, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Hierve al Agua
[edit]Hello Bryce Hughes,
What does "permanently closed to tourists since March 2021" mean for this site? Does this mean you can't get anywhere nearby? (That would be a pity, as if is really beautiful.) Should we just remove the listing, and the article about the site? Or can you still see it from a distance? Ground Zero (talk) 11:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hi @Ground Zero: it's a real bummer. Apparently it has been periodically closing for many years now, due to (mostly peaceful) conflicts with indigenous locals about land use rights, etc, but this time it is apparently "permanent", or at least permanent in the sense that there are no plans to reopen it. There is a decent English-language summary here. There are also further details in Spanish-language sources (I'm a bit short on time today). From what I've read in both English and Spanish, no, you can't get anywhere near it.
- Re removing the listing and/or deleting the article... I don't know. It feels like such a sad thing, to be honest, but I guess my brain leans toward probably, or at least it should be nominated for deletion to build a consensus on how to handle it. Anything could happen, of course, and the site could open back up in several years... I'm not sure the best way to handle that contingency (have an admin restore page, etc.).
- I will be in Oaxaca city for several weeks starting tomorrow, and I will try to get some on-the-ground information and report back. Brycehughes (talk) 14:15, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting article -- thank you for that. The article ends by saying "In May, Salinas Cortes and San Lorenzo Albarradas community representatives held a press conference in which they suggested that reforestation efforts, which they propose be carried out by Mexico’s National Guard and federal government, could prompt them to finally reopen Hierve el Agua. Until those matters are settled, though, they see the ongoing closure as the only responsible recourse." Closing it "permanently" may be a bargaining position. It would make sense that it is reopened eventually with controls on the visitor numbers and benefits to the community, so that is likely what will happen, but we don't know when. What do you think about saying that it is "closed indefinitely"? It doesn't sound like it is certain that it will never reopen, but there is no way of knowing when it will reopen. Enjoy your trip -- Oaxaca city is a lovely place, and the food is so good. I am envious. Ground Zero (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: Absolutely fine with that. Re the article itself, do you think one of the blue travel notices up the top might be appropriate? (My unfamiliarity with wv is showing but hopefully you know what I mean... am currently procrastinating on packing.) The short note in the Understand section seems a bit weak.
- Thanks re my trip. I was in Oaxaca several years ago as well, but due to time constraints back then I skipped Hierve el Agua... now looks like one of my dumbest travel decisions. Oh well. Plenty else to see (and eat). Brycehughes (talk) 14:54, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- I hear you. I was fascinated by the Berlin Wall, but in October 1989, it was getting too cold, so I headed south and actually said to someone, "the wall will still be there ten years from now". Now that was a dumb travel decision.
- A notice box at the top of the article is probably a good solution. I can work on that later if you want. Ground Zero (talk) 14:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: Oof! I laughed out loud but it was a pained laugh I promise you. You win with that one.
- If you'd like to work on it, that'd be fine by me. If not, I'm also happy to figure it out once I've recovered from the bus ride tomorrow or the next day. Thanks a ton. Brycehughes (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: Fantastic news... I'm in Oaxaca, and apparently Hierve el Agua re-opened two weeks ago. I will adjust the relevant articles. Apologies for causing you to spend a bit of time on this, certainly reinforced your point of using "indefinitely" rather than "permanently". Brycehughes (talk) 17:07, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Great news, indeed. No need to apologize. The Conde Nast article was an interesting read. When we went to Hierve al Agua, there was a protest by teachers that blocked the highway, so the van driver went off-road through agave fields to get around it. It was still there when we were returning in the evening, and we briefly got lost in the agave. Have a great trip. Ground Zero (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: We ended up taking a cramped collectivo up the hill. Absolutely worth the visit and the bruised tailbone. I'm so glad it opened back up just before I got there. Brycehughes (talk) 22:25, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- Congratulations! It is a beautiful spot. I am glad you got there. Your additions to the Oaxaca article are fantastic. I wish I could be there. Ground Zero (talk) 02:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: We ended up taking a cramped collectivo up the hill. Absolutely worth the visit and the bruised tailbone. I'm so glad it opened back up just before I got there. Brycehughes (talk) 22:25, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- Great news, indeed. No need to apologize. The Conde Nast article was an interesting read. When we went to Hierve al Agua, there was a protest by teachers that blocked the highway, so the van driver went off-road through agave fields to get around it. It was still there when we were returning in the evening, and we briefly got lost in the agave. Have a great trip. Ground Zero (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting article -- thank you for that. The article ends by saying "In May, Salinas Cortes and San Lorenzo Albarradas community representatives held a press conference in which they suggested that reforestation efforts, which they propose be carried out by Mexico’s National Guard and federal government, could prompt them to finally reopen Hierve el Agua. Until those matters are settled, though, they see the ongoing closure as the only responsible recourse." Closing it "permanently" may be a bargaining position. It would make sense that it is reopened eventually with controls on the visitor numbers and benefits to the community, so that is likely what will happen, but we don't know when. What do you think about saying that it is "closed indefinitely"? It doesn't sound like it is certain that it will never reopen, but there is no way of knowing when it will reopen. Enjoy your trip -- Oaxaca city is a lovely place, and the food is so good. I am envious. Ground Zero (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Typos
[edit]I'd love for your mom to edit out typos! We do have visual editing on this site, too, if you prefer it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ikan Kekek Oh really? How do you turn visual editing on? I don't see it in my preferences. Brycehughes (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you click "Edit" on a page, there is a pencil tool on the upper right corner. If you click that, you can switch from "Source editing" to "Visual editing." The same is true if you click "Edit" at the beginning of a section of an article. Oddly, this doesn't seem to work the same way on talk pages, but you'll see that it works on destination articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Gotcha. Many thanks! Brycehughes (talk) 19:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Sure thing! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Gotcha. Many thanks! Brycehughes (talk) 19:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you click "Edit" on a page, there is a pencil tool on the upper right corner. If you click that, you can switch from "Source editing" to "Visual editing." The same is true if you click "Edit" at the beginning of a section of an article. Oddly, this doesn't seem to work the same way on talk pages, but you'll see that it works on destination articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for creating and contributing to this great article about a very interesting destination that I had, unsurprisingly, no idea existed. I had immense pleasure reading it and am looking forward to any further edits insofar as possible. I guess it would be a well-deserved addition to Next-to-impossible destinations#Africa.
One question, though: why did you remove its one-liner description in the article for its parent region? I thought that was a very good and snappy description, a great way to fish for readers, and who knows maybe potential travellers, and was fitting the Wikivoyage:Tone policy perfectly. Vidimian (talk) 22:58, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Vidimian: I thought it was too dramatic, but if you like it I'll add it back. Brycehughes (talk) 23:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not some kind of authority to decide what goes into the articles and what doesn't, but I've truly liked it. It seems the area itself is dramatic, so I think a dramatic description fits well, let it be. Additionally, having a description, indeed anything even if it's a bit over the top (I don't think it is) is better than having no description at all. Vidimian (talk) 23:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, fair enough. I'm not much fussed either way. I think "insanely" beautiful might be a bit much for the area, but then it kind-of serves as a counterweight to the "suicidally" remote drama ha. Brycehughes (talk) 23:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and "insanely" could be taken for one of its less figurative meanings in this case. The text is always open to improvement anyway. Vidimian (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Vidimian: I added it to Next-to-impossible destinations#Africa. Thanks for that, cool page. I also deleted the Sahara desert, because I think I paid like $100 USD years ago to ride a camel there. It was very possible/easy to get to, and I assume it still is. Brycehughes (talk) 02:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. Vidimian (talk) 16:49, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Vidimian: I added it to Next-to-impossible destinations#Africa. Thanks for that, cool page. I also deleted the Sahara desert, because I think I paid like $100 USD years ago to ride a camel there. It was very possible/easy to get to, and I assume it still is. Brycehughes (talk) 02:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and "insanely" could be taken for one of its less figurative meanings in this case. The text is always open to improvement anyway. Vidimian (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, fair enough. I'm not much fussed either way. I think "insanely" beautiful might be a bit much for the area, but then it kind-of serves as a counterweight to the "suicidally" remote drama ha. Brycehughes (talk) 23:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not some kind of authority to decide what goes into the articles and what doesn't, but I've truly liked it. It seems the area itself is dramatic, so I think a dramatic description fits well, let it be. Additionally, having a description, indeed anything even if it's a bit over the top (I don't think it is) is better than having no description at all. Vidimian (talk) 23:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Alaçatı
[edit]- BH, you reverted the redirect on this page without explanation - that's poor netiquette. See the discussion for Çeşme the target page, where the content was migrated. The redirect was signalled two days in advance and got no response. If you wish to reverse the decision, please continue the argument there. Grahamsands (talk) 08:52, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Grahamsands Sorry I offended you. Brycehughes (talk) 08:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Tip for you, Graham – please use an intuitive edit summary next time. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Categories
[edit]Hi. We don't actively add topicscategories on this site. Just add articles as needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: What are you referring to? Brycehughes (talk) 10:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- You created Category:Khatumo and Category:Galmudug. They were empty, in any case, and I deleted them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:46, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: That's because otherwise it creates that crazy tree symbol on any sub-pages. See the the bottom of the pages now at Galkacyo and Cayn. I asked about this a while ago at the pub, and I believe I was told to just create the "topics". If that's not the way to fix the crazy-tree symbol, what is? Brycehughes (talk) 10:50, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you would have had to manually create categories. See Wikivoyage:Categories. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- And I meant categories, not topics. Sorry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: I asked again at the pub. Brycehughes (talk) 12:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry for misunderstanding this, and thanks for bearing with me! It's amazing that I didn't understand this all this time! Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: Absolutely no worries! To be honest, I don't understand it either. I just hate that tree symbol haha Brycehughes (talk) 06:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't like it, either, but I now understand how to fix that problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: Absolutely no worries! To be honest, I don't understand it either. I just hate that tree symbol haha Brycehughes (talk) 06:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry for misunderstanding this, and thanks for bearing with me! It's amazing that I didn't understand this all this time! Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: I asked again at the pub. Brycehughes (talk) 12:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- And I meant categories, not topics. Sorry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you would have had to manually create categories. See Wikivoyage:Categories. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ikan Kekek: That's because otherwise it creates that crazy tree symbol on any sub-pages. See the the bottom of the pages now at Galkacyo and Cayn. I asked about this a while ago at the pub, and I believe I was told to just create the "topics". If that's not the way to fix the crazy-tree symbol, what is? Brycehughes (talk) 10:50, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- You created Category:Khatumo and Category:Galmudug. They were empty, in any case, and I deleted them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:46, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Iron Ore Train
[edit]Thanks for this article. It is a dream for me.... Ground Zero (talk) 15:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: Me too, but I'm older now and my back... Brycehughes (talk) 16:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think husband would agree to it, so it falls into the category of "fantasy travel" now. You inspired me to read some blogs and add to the article. Ground Zero (talk) 21:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero: Nice! I have a go-to mate that I do these sorts of things with. He's been pestering me for ages to ride a pair of horses across Mongolia (also sounds uncomfortable), so if I do that maybe I'll drag him on to this as a trade. Brycehughes (talk) 22:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think husband would agree to it, so it falls into the category of "fantasy travel" now. You inspired me to read some blogs and add to the article. Ground Zero (talk) 21:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Happy holidays!
[edit]|
Happy holidays, Brycehughes!  Greetings from Te Moeka o Tuawe, Te Tai Poutini, Aotearoa. |
- SHB2000 Nice, thanks! You too! You're at Fox Glacier now? or how does this template work haha. Brycehughes (talk) 00:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, and so glad the weather was good yesterday at the top of the glacier as the effects of the boy are very real here. I'm off to Greymouth and Arthur's Pass tonight and tomorrow (thankfully nature-based destinations are still open). What are you up to tmr? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- No big plans, honestly. It's not really a thing where I currently am living. I'll head back to NZ in January to see the whanau. Have you been to NZ before? You probably already know all the main tourist stuff in that area. I think a hidden gem (cliché!) is the Catlins, kind of wild country with a cool coastline, lots of seals. Brycehughes (talk) 03:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have been to NZ once before, but it was only to Auckland for a wedding. I actually wanted to go to the Catlins and Stewart Island while I was down there but ran out of time as I wanted to spend more time in some of the southwesterly national parks (esp. Aoraki/Mt Cook). It is still on my list. As for Christmas, yeah, same – mainly because I came from a non-religious background and both my parents grew up where Christmas wasn't a huge thing (at least not in the 70s and 80s). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- You made the right choice if you have limited time. Hope you got to see Milford Sound and all that. I feel like the Caitlins might be similar to Tassie, but I've never been there so I don't don't what I'm talking about. Brycehughes (talk) 05:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Milford Sound felt like I was transformed back to Norway – even nicer that I visited the fiord on a non-rainy day (even tho it's el nino). Parts of the South Island do feel very reminiscent of Tassie from my visit earlier this year, but the Catlins still seems like a cool place. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- So assuming you're heading north, and no idea if you're looking for recommendations but here are some anyway: Punakaiki's pretty cool. Golden Bay/Abel Tasman National Park is really nice, although it's always hard recommending beaches to Australians lol (I'll grant you have the best ones). And the Marlborough Sounds are gorgeous. The ferry ride to the North Island is pretty, and Wellington's probably the only city in NZ worth visiting. Brycehughes (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- SHB2000 I'll just keep going because what the hell. If you get to the North Island, there isn't a ton going on much north of Wellington, but you could see my home town Palmerston North, which John Cleese called the suicide capital of New Zealand, so we named the rubbish tip after him (seriously, don't go to Palmerston North). Hawkes' Bay is popular with Kiwis but I've never really understood the appeal, skip it. Going farther north the Desert Road, Mt Ruapehu, Mt Ngauruhoe (Mount Doom!), and Mt Tongariro are all pretty cool. The Tongariro Crossing is a great hike (tramp) and totally recommend that. Turangi is a cool little town. Lake Taupo is nice, though the town of Taupo is a bit touristy. West of that there is weird country and probably not super tourist friendly unless you were really wanting to see the real NZ... German tourists love Mount Taranaki but mehh... it's got a good profile though (New Plymouth is pleasant but nothing you woundn't find in Aus). Huka Falls is defintely worth a look, just north of Taupo – I've been to some falls around the world and it's pretty damn impressive. Rotorua is pretty worth it, the geothermal stuff, even the town itself is pretty nice. Waitomo is popular; I've never done it; a bit tourist trappy now I think. The East Cape of New Zealand is gem. Take the drive from Whakatane to the cape, in the summer it's one of the most beautiful drives in the world, just pull over the car at the small little hidden beaches along the way, have a swim. There's also a short tramp in Whakatane called the Kohi Track which in the summer is one of the most beautiful places on earth – you end up at a secret beach, Otawaiwere, with literally nobody on it – some of the track may have been take out by recent slips though. Tauranga/Mt Maunganui, ehh... if you're from Australia you're not going to get much out of that, frankly. Coromandel is really nice but you start to get into the Auckland tourist territory, which this time of year might be a bit much. Hot Water Beach used to be a place where you'd just dig a hole in the sand and sit in your own hot tub, but that was in the 1990s and I think it's been thoroughly commercialised now. Stay the hell away from Hamilton. Skip Auckland. North of Auckland there is some really beautiful stuff, including everybody's favourite, the Bay of Islands. But honestly if you get that far you'll have seen more of the country than me.
- This would be a serious tour of NZ if you pulled any of this off, but hope it helps, even maybe for next time. Brycehughes (talk) 20:18, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, that's interesting. I don't plan to go any further north than Paparoa today and Arthur's Pass tomorrow (since my flight leaves Chch on Dec 27 morning) on this specific trip, but also because Nelson will be really packed for Christmas. I will consider all this when I visit the North Island in-depth, though – thanks for the insider Kiwi information! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- SHB2000 cool yeah save it for next time. Chirstchurch, there ain't much, but you can take a kayaking tour of some of the earthquake areas which is interesting and sad but quite nice. Brycehughes (talk) 23:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Update: for Christmas I fell down a flight of stairs and broke two ribs. And I wasn't even pissed! Brycehughes (talk) 08:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh :-(. How are you doing now? (and how do you not get pissed?!?) Either way, I wish you a speedy recovery :-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- (Ha by pissed I meant Aus/NZ kind, not the North American kind... as in I didn't fall down drunk, rather I tripped on my jandals/thongs at the top of a staircase :-) I'm fine enough though, thanks for asking. Just need to remember to take deep breaths occasionally to avoid a lung infection. Not much you can do for ribs, otherwise. A bit bed-ridden, and that'd be a prime time to edit here, but the pain pills have me a bit dopey, unfortunately. Hope you had/are having a great NZ trip! Brycehughes (talk) 10:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, that's slightly relieving to hear. NZ trip was great (got home two days ago), hope to do the north sometime. (oh, us Zoomers/Zeds always default to the North American definition of pissed lol) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- REALLY?! Australia's changed, man :) Brycehughes (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Or maybe that I'm only 20 per cent Bogan. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hahahahaha you just killed my ribs with that one. Brycehughes (talk) 11:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- SHB2000 Curious. As a gen Z Aussie, do you spell it "arse" or "ass"? Personally I think the American spelling is much better. Brycehughes (talk) 19:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- I spell it as ass but pronounce it as arse (though I do see myself saying both interchangeably). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sitting here saying the word ass/arse to see how I pronounce it ha. I have a weird and not-so-pretty hybrid NZ/American accent. I didn't realise there was a difference in the pronunciation but I guess there is, depends on how deep and long you put that "a". Anyway, minor stuff, thanks for the input. Interesting to see language evolve in real time. Brycehughes (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- tbh, I wouldn't say my accent is Aussie anymore – it's 20 per cent Bogan, 30 per cent Canadian/American, 40 per cent Australian (not Bogan), and 10 per cent of other accents. But yeah, a very interesting topic – who knew why we don't speak Englisce anymore! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sitting here saying the word ass/arse to see how I pronounce it ha. I have a weird and not-so-pretty hybrid NZ/American accent. I didn't realise there was a difference in the pronunciation but I guess there is, depends on how deep and long you put that "a". Anyway, minor stuff, thanks for the input. Interesting to see language evolve in real time. Brycehughes (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- I spell it as ass but pronounce it as arse (though I do see myself saying both interchangeably). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- SHB2000 Curious. As a gen Z Aussie, do you spell it "arse" or "ass"? Personally I think the American spelling is much better. Brycehughes (talk) 19:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hahahahaha you just killed my ribs with that one. Brycehughes (talk) 11:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Or maybe that I'm only 20 per cent Bogan. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- REALLY?! Australia's changed, man :) Brycehughes (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, that's slightly relieving to hear. NZ trip was great (got home two days ago), hope to do the north sometime. (oh, us Zoomers/Zeds always default to the North American definition of pissed lol) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- (Ha by pissed I meant Aus/NZ kind, not the North American kind... as in I didn't fall down drunk, rather I tripped on my jandals/thongs at the top of a staircase :-) I'm fine enough though, thanks for asking. Just need to remember to take deep breaths occasionally to avoid a lung infection. Not much you can do for ribs, otherwise. A bit bed-ridden, and that'd be a prime time to edit here, but the pain pills have me a bit dopey, unfortunately. Hope you had/are having a great NZ trip! Brycehughes (talk) 10:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh :-(. How are you doing now? (and how do you not get pissed?!?) Either way, I wish you a speedy recovery :-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Update: for Christmas I fell down a flight of stairs and broke two ribs. And I wasn't even pissed! Brycehughes (talk) 08:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- SHB2000 cool yeah save it for next time. Chirstchurch, there ain't much, but you can take a kayaking tour of some of the earthquake areas which is interesting and sad but quite nice. Brycehughes (talk) 23:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, that's interesting. I don't plan to go any further north than Paparoa today and Arthur's Pass tomorrow (since my flight leaves Chch on Dec 27 morning) on this specific trip, but also because Nelson will be really packed for Christmas. I will consider all this when I visit the North Island in-depth, though – thanks for the insider Kiwi information! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- So assuming you're heading north, and no idea if you're looking for recommendations but here are some anyway: Punakaiki's pretty cool. Golden Bay/Abel Tasman National Park is really nice, although it's always hard recommending beaches to Australians lol (I'll grant you have the best ones). And the Marlborough Sounds are gorgeous. The ferry ride to the North Island is pretty, and Wellington's probably the only city in NZ worth visiting. Brycehughes (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Milford Sound felt like I was transformed back to Norway – even nicer that I visited the fiord on a non-rainy day (even tho it's el nino). Parts of the South Island do feel very reminiscent of Tassie from my visit earlier this year, but the Catlins still seems like a cool place. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- You made the right choice if you have limited time. Hope you got to see Milford Sound and all that. I feel like the Caitlins might be similar to Tassie, but I've never been there so I don't don't what I'm talking about. Brycehughes (talk) 05:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have been to NZ once before, but it was only to Auckland for a wedding. I actually wanted to go to the Catlins and Stewart Island while I was down there but ran out of time as I wanted to spend more time in some of the southwesterly national parks (esp. Aoraki/Mt Cook). It is still on my list. As for Christmas, yeah, same – mainly because I came from a non-religious background and both my parents grew up where Christmas wasn't a huge thing (at least not in the 70s and 80s). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- No big plans, honestly. It's not really a thing where I currently am living. I'll head back to NZ in January to see the whanau. Have you been to NZ before? You probably already know all the main tourist stuff in that area. I think a hidden gem (cliché!) is the Catlins, kind of wild country with a cool coastline, lots of seals. Brycehughes (talk) 03:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, and so glad the weather was good yesterday at the top of the glacier as the effects of the boy are very real here. I'm off to Greymouth and Arthur's Pass tonight and tomorrow (thankfully nature-based destinations are still open). What are you up to tmr? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Put this in your pipe
[edit]- Swept in from the pub
I wrote this: Explore195.com Any time you click on this link I personally lose massive amounts of money, so don't click on this link. Also feel free to block me for being biased. Brycehughes (talk) 18:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- This is pretty cool and shows how Wikivoyage's content are used on a map while combined with other data. I especially like the temperature and rain overlay. OhanaUnitedTalk page 03:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks so much. To be honest it was a bitch to write. Not to mention that the WV data likes to change underneath you. Let me know if you find any bugs. Brycehughes (talk) 06:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- That rain overlay is damn cool. This will save me from checking when the rainy season is in various destinations when I'm planning trips! Thanks also for your recent edits to Venezuela, I agree the level of hysteria in the article was pretty silly. Sgroey (talk) 06:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. Just to note, I wrote the website because I love Wikivoyage and I use it all the time in my personal life. I just thought it needed more, so we get Explore195.com. I don't really have a good idea of how to commercialise it, and so I guess it's just for people on the Pub here. I guess I could stick ads all over the place (ugh). For now, until I become a proper CEO prick, I hope everyone here can get some use from it. Costs me like $200 USD/month to run but please don't kill me on usage ha. Brycehughes (talk) 06:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Brycehughes, is the software behind it all open source? If it doesn't need proprietary software, then it might be possible to port it to Toollabs (=free). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing No, it's closed source. I might try to commercialise it some day. But for now, for the let's say 50-100 people that monitor the Pub, it's free and have fun with it. I don't have any big plans for now, I'm just glad to be "done" with it. It was hard work. Brycehughes (talk) 20:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Btw, total respect and love for OSS. But a lot of the stuff running behind the scenes is a bit sophisticated (if I can be so arrogant), for example the climate picker. So it's just not something I'd want to overall open to the world at the moment. There are parts that could potentially be open-sourced, but I'd have to really work on splitting things up, which I don't want to do; at this time (am tired). Brycehughes (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also, it wasn't just simply a matter of taking a WV data dump and slapping it on a map. There was a ton of munging, machine-learning, etc. I honestly though at first it was just going to be a matter of dumping the WV dump on to a map... but oh, oh no, so much more complicated. I have 20-years in software development experience and this was quite a challenge, to be honest. Brycehughes (talk) 20:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- I should also say the main thing – my code is absolute trash. How embarrassing if I OS'ed it lol. (The login stuff and backend are pretty sophisticated and well done, imo, so don't be afraid to log in, but yeah god the front end is... well, the front end. Thank god for Lodash) Brycehughes (talk) 21:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also, it wasn't just simply a matter of taking a WV data dump and slapping it on a map. There was a ton of munging, machine-learning, etc. I honestly though at first it was just going to be a matter of dumping the WV dump on to a map... but oh, oh no, so much more complicated. I have 20-years in software development experience and this was quite a challenge, to be honest. Brycehughes (talk) 20:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Btw, total respect and love for OSS. But a lot of the stuff running behind the scenes is a bit sophisticated (if I can be so arrogant), for example the climate picker. So it's just not something I'd want to overall open to the world at the moment. There are parts that could potentially be open-sourced, but I'd have to really work on splitting things up, which I don't want to do; at this time (am tired). Brycehughes (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing No, it's closed source. I might try to commercialise it some day. But for now, for the let's say 50-100 people that monitor the Pub, it's free and have fun with it. I don't have any big plans for now, I'm just glad to be "done" with it. It was hard work. Brycehughes (talk) 20:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Brycehughes, is the software behind it all open source? If it doesn't need proprietary software, then it might be possible to port it to Toollabs (=free). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh for anyone in the know, it's also fully client-side rendered, so I doubt it's going to make much impact re SEO. Ah well, it's a cool website I think. Brycehughes (talk) 07:11, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Ooh pretty, I love a cool map!
- Sorry to be that guy, but I think you need to make a couple of tweaks to ensure your site is copyleft compliant. You can reuse Wikivoyage content however you want, but you must (a) credit the original content and (b) republish under the same licence.
- You've more or less fulfilled (a) with the 'View at Wikivoyage' links under the written content, though you could be more explicit that the content has been reused.
- However, please can you look again at how you fulfil (b)? "© 2023 Explore195 | © MapTiler © OpenStreetMap contributors" can currently be inferred to cover the entire website, whereas I suspect you only intended them to cover the map and graphics overlays. At any rate, they can't cover the content you've copied from Wikivoyage, and in order to make this clear, there must be a CC-by-SA 4.0 licensing watermark and a link to the full licence text. Where you put that is up to you, but the most obvious place would probably be alongside the page credit.
- Again, sorry to be that guy; I'm a bit of stickler for protecting our authorship rights, and since you're also a valued Wikivoyage contributor, that includes your authorship rights too.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:07, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- ThunderingTyphoons! No totally cool and thank you. I only pushed this live yesterday. Would sticking it down in the bottom right of the map cover it? Or should I put it on the page with "View at Wikivoyage"?. Not a big deal and extremely happy to comply. I actually wrote to Wikimedia and they were essentially like just don't use our logos ha. Brycehughes (talk) 13:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Wikimedia don't hold the licence over the content of the various wikis (the authors do, collectively), so it would make sense that they'd be mostly interested in protecting their logos, which they do own!
- The placement is up to you, but if you put it with the map copyright, you'd need to make sure it's clear which licence covers which bit of content. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, any time I write to my lawyers it costs me like $1400. It sounds like what you're saying is that it should only go on the actual Wikivoyage content, which would make it clear. Brycehughes (talk) 13:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Tell you what, I'll do both. I'll put in beside the Wikivoyage thing and also in the bottom right. Let's play it safe. Please let me know if there are any issues with this, really appreciate your feedback. Brycehughes (talk) 13:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also it will take me like 24 hours to make the change and then another 48 or so to get pushed out to the CDN, so please don't jump on me. I'm on it. Brycehughes (talk) 13:31, 23 December 2023 (UTC)`````
- ThunderingTyphoons! No totally cool and thank you. I only pushed this live yesterday. Would sticking it down in the bottom right of the map cover it? Or should I put it on the page with "View at Wikivoyage"?. Not a big deal and extremely happy to comply. I actually wrote to Wikimedia and they were essentially like just don't use our logos ha. Brycehughes (talk) 13:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. Just to note, I wrote the website because I love Wikivoyage and I use it all the time in my personal life. I just thought it needed more, so we get Explore195.com. I don't really have a good idea of how to commercialise it, and so I guess it's just for people on the Pub here. I guess I could stick ads all over the place (ugh). For now, until I become a proper CEO prick, I hope everyone here can get some use from it. Costs me like $200 USD/month to run but please don't kill me on usage ha. Brycehughes (talk) 06:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- That rain overlay is damn cool. This will save me from checking when the rainy season is in various destinations when I'm planning trips! Thanks also for your recent edits to Venezuela, I agree the level of hysteria in the article was pretty silly. Sgroey (talk) 06:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks so much. To be honest it was a bitch to write. Not to mention that the WV data likes to change underneath you. Let me know if you find any bugs. Brycehughes (talk) 06:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Extremely easy to add the watermark and I'll do this. Give like 72 hours though. Thanks for your feedback ThunderingTyphoons!. Brycehughes (talk) 13:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- ThunderingTyphoons! I'm going to stick it in the bottom right along with the other CCs. My reasoning is that a lot of the geo is also Wikimedia-based. Let me know if this will not do. Brycehughes (talk) 14:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll wait to see how it looks. No rush :) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'll ping you on your talk page. Also, with the CDN (content delivery network) things might take some time to show up, so yeah I can rush but the internet annoyingly will not. (I could purge the caches but I'm not going to do that for a damn copyright notice heh). Brycehughes (talk) 17:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll wait to see how it looks. No rush :) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- ThunderingTyphoons! I'm going to stick it in the bottom right along with the other CCs. My reasoning is that a lot of the geo is also Wikimedia-based. Let me know if this will not do. Brycehughes (talk) 14:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- How often does the content update or refresh to add new cities because of on new pages (or removed because a page gets deleted)? OhanaUnitedTalk page 06:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- For adding I have to do it manually. There is not really a 1:1 match to content on WV. For example, the United States is so overcrowded with content I had to use machine learning to rank the pages and then cut out like the bottom 25% less "important" articles (or something like that). Neither I nor the app knows when a page gets created here; it's potentially a feature I could add in the future but that would only be if I commercialised it some day and it was actually worth the time investment (right now I'm sick of working on it honestly).
- For deleting, I have a bot that runs using the WM APIs and lets me know if a page is 404ing and I can manually delete it. But usually I'd just delete the link to the WV content and keep the feature on the map, kind of depends on the situation. Brycehughes (talk) 06:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Are you aware of Wikivoyage:Database dump? It takes a snapshot of all pages in the wiki so you don't need to add pages one by one. And if you're bored (or sick of programming during the holidays), I recently launched an editing challenge to get editors to edit outside of their comfort zone. With 50+ countries you've been to, I think you'll find it easier than many of us to complete. OhanaUnitedTalk page 08:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes very aware of the DB dump :) That's one of the (many) things I dumped into the machine learning algo (btw when I say machine learning I mean regression, not any of this fancy NLP shit we all think of nowadays). Totally keen on your editing challenge, it's exactly what we need and thanks for starting it. I'll be frank though: I'm kind of exhausted. But give me a few days and I'll see what I can do. Is there an expiration? Brycehughes (talk) 08:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- Are you aware of Wikivoyage:Database dump? It takes a snapshot of all pages in the wiki so you don't need to add pages one by one. And if you're bored (or sick of programming during the holidays), I recently launched an editing challenge to get editors to edit outside of their comfort zone. With 50+ countries you've been to, I think you'll find it easier than many of us to complete. OhanaUnitedTalk page 08:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Tren Maya
[edit]I got a little chuckle out of the comment about usability wrt Tren Maya.
I've seen the media reports about crowds, delayed trains, incomplete station facilities, etc., but I chalk it up to growing pains of a brand new major project, not something that's fundamentally broken. The train has only been open for a couple months and the southern leg is still be rushed to open this coming week. I'm also aware that the naysayers often have a political axe to grind with AMLO or are foreign agitators who object to cutting down trees in the rainforest (some with big megaphones in foreign media are just looking for things to criticize).
Altogether, I think it's too early to criticize the train as they struggle to get the whole system bootstrapped. Let's see how they perform a year from now when they've gotten some experience under their belts and presumably had time to iron out the glitches. Mrkstvns (talk) 21:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Mrkstvns Totally agree, which is why I put the "as of Feb 2024", but for now we need to warn people about it. We can't have people depending on it to get the airport for flights, as they might in Europe, for example. Brycehughes (talk) 21:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Mrkstvns Softened my language a bit... maybe that'll make it easier to just delete the second paragraph once the kinks are ironed out. Brycehughes (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good. Hopefully they'll get things worked out and reliability will soon improve. Regards, Mrkstvns (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- In my inbox this morning:
- Estimado usuario,
- Se le informa que el servicio de la ruta Palenque-Cancún del día [***] en horario de las 07:00 am (Horario del centro) se suspende por causas de fuerza mayor, quedando a reprogramarse saliendo a las 09:00 am (Horario del centro), si en su caso aborda desde otras estaciones se reprograma 2 horas más al abordar en cualquier estación. En caso de requerir su viaje en una fecha posterior, puede realizar la solicitud al siguiente correo: [***]
- Lamentamos los inconvenientes que esto pueda causar, trabajamos para brindarle un mejor servicio.
- Servicio al Cliente Tren Maya.
- Sigh. I'll just have to be prepared to race to the bus station and jump on an ADO bus as backup. Brycehughes (talk) 21:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Fortunately, ADO buses are comfortable, reliable and cheap. Maybe not as much fun as riding a new train through the jungle though... Good luck! Mrkstvns (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! Btw, if you like ADO (I don't much), you'll love Omnibus de Mexico (not in sothern mx, sadly). Brycehughes (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, Omnibus de Mexico is pretty nice. My favorite bus line is ETN. Just love those huge seats with lots of leg room! Mrkstvns (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, a Mexican bus-off! I took ETN all over the place a few years ago and loved it. This year I rode ETN buses twice and both times the buses were dilapidated and the bathrooms gave off that stench I often find on ADO buses... permeated the whole bus. Not sure if it's a sign of decline... I could have just been unlucky this year, I guess. ETN is definitely still the most spacious. Brycehughes (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, Omnibus de Mexico is pretty nice. My favorite bus line is ETN. Just love those huge seats with lots of leg room! Mrkstvns (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! Btw, if you like ADO (I don't much), you'll love Omnibus de Mexico (not in sothern mx, sadly). Brycehughes (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Fortunately, ADO buses are comfortable, reliable and cheap. Maybe not as much fun as riding a new train through the jungle though... Good luck! Mrkstvns (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- In my inbox this morning:
- Looks good. Hopefully they'll get things worked out and reliability will soon improve. Regards, Mrkstvns (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Morelia
[edit]Hola! I see that you found my edits on safety in the Morelia article to be "too colorful". That's cool, it probably reads better without those lines. Just so you don't think I was pulling that crap out of my hat, it came from Wikipedia's article on the Knights Templar cartel (see section Ethical...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_Cartel
Cheers! Mrkstvns (talk) 16:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oh yeah I didn't think it was incorrect or anything. Just felt a bit out a place for the Morelia article and perhaps even out of place for a travel guide in general. Not totally wed to this opinion though. Thanks for all the other edits! Brycehughes (talk) 16:21, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Please don't delete factoids
[edit]Wikivoyage is not Wikipedia, and this is almost certainly the most exciting thing that has ever happened in the Tokara Islands, so please don't delete it! Jpatokal (talk) 03:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- What the hell. That is so old. A 2009 eclipse... how is that remotely relevant to travel in 2024?? Brycehughes (talk) 03:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Could go in the History section, I guess. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I guess. Brycehughes (talk) 14:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- A History section so comprehensive that it would have room for such trivialities is not what I'd want to see in a travel guide. Mrkstvns (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's utterly boring and has no relevance whatsoever to travel. The factoid event left nothing to see or do and has zero impact on anything that might motivate a traveler to say, "this is cool, I should go there." Let's remove it (and any similar rubbish). Mrkstvns (talk) 15:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Since we remove 2024 eclipse info, I don't see why we're keeping 2009's. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well massive shrug and i'm also intensely bored by this. Because it's boring. But some people really love historical eclipses and it's an open wiki. Brycehughes (talk) 05:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm a huge space buff and also believe the way it was presented made it boring. I'd like to to be shorter or completely removed. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 09:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well massive shrug and i'm also intensely bored by this. Because it's boring. But some people really love historical eclipses and it's an open wiki. Brycehughes (talk) 05:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Since we remove 2024 eclipse info, I don't see why we're keeping 2009's. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Could go in the History section, I guess. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Brooklynites are unpatriotic?
[edit]What are you trying to say? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, or at least a substantial subsection; that patriotism is an inappropriately general term to use for the culture section of the USA as there is a significant chunk of Americans who wouldn't feel the term represented their values and wouldn't be evident in a traveller's encounters. Brycehughes (talk) 00:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- The question is, are they just a fringe subculture? So far, most of the African-Americans, Latinos and Asian-Americans I have met are quite patriotic towards the U.S. even if they may complain about discrimination. The dog2 (talk) 00:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think you're getting at the fact that my edit summary was a bit flippant – and it was. It was an edit summary. I would not describe Americans in general as noteworthy-ly patriotic vis-a-vis Turks, Tajikistanis or Hungarians, for random examples. I think that race is beside the point and doesn't need to be brought up. It's simply that there are significant numbers of Americans that would not consider themselves patriotic, as evidenced, for example, here. Brycehughes (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- What I was trying to get at is that complaining about certain aspects of American society doesn't mean they're unpatriotic. Many African-Americans will complain about the discrimination they face, but at the same time will still declare that they're very proud to be American. But OK, I guess it depends on perspective. I am from Singapore, and I have to say that the average Singaporean at least on the surface doesn't have that same level of pride in the nation that the average American, Australian or Chinese has. Perhaps that's because we're a young nation that has never fought a war since independence, let alone won one, and our founding fathers had to create a national identity from scratch given that one didn't exist at the time Malaysia kicked us out in 1965. The dog2 (talk) 00:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's fine. I didn't replace it with "unpatriotic". I simply think that saying that Americans are in general "patriotic" is incorrect, when roughly 1/3 are not. Brycehughes (talk) 00:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- But speaking of which, isn't American exceptionalism something that gets drilled into every American kid's head in school? I'm honestly surprised by the results you just quoted. Even my colleague who is a political dissident from China and now a naturalized American citizen has said that she considers the U.S. Constitution to be the greatest document ever written in the history of the world. She said that she's deeply touched by the selflessness of America's founding fathers in rejecting power for themselves and insisting that it be given to the American people instead, and she believes that this is why America will always have the best government policies in the world, and will be the greatest and most powerful country in the world until the end of time. The dog2 (talk) 01:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- We're getting off-topic now, but I am half-American and I've had the privilege to dip in and out of the USA since my early teens. I graduated from high school in Idaho, a very conservative state. I joined the US Navy. I've lived in many US states. I'd say generally no... Americans think for themselves politically, but it is in general quite a private thing, despite what you might pick up from media and friends. Loud American voices tend to be very loud (figuratively and literally), but this is only a subset of a very large country. It is difficult to get to know America, and Americans, because there is often a reticence to talk about values, politics, etc., unlike what you might find in Europe. And you need to keep in mind it is a very large country that values, deeply, a diversity of opinion, so to take one American's opinion and generalize is a bit dangerous. Brycehughes (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- So back to the specific topic: We New Yorkers are sensitive about claims that we're not patriotic, etc. Sure, many of us are not rah-rah about the U.S. most of the time, due in part to our cynicism about the giant sucking sound that's our tax dollars going to states like Mississippi that bite the hands that feed them, and many (but IMO, sometimes not enough) of us are critical of aspects of U.S. foreign policy, but we weren't attacked in 2001 for being New Yorkers but for being Americans, so as far as we're concerned, people questioning our Americanism or patriotism can go fuck themselves 1,000 times with sharp metal implements. I realize that your motivation wasn't the same as theirs, but that's why I reacted the way I did. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, sorry for the flippant edit summary. For what it's worth, I live in NYC. Brycehughes (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's OK. By the way, though, did you live there in September, 2001? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've already apolgised. Brycehughes (talk) 00:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- That was just a question out of curiosity. I already accepted your apology above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, no I didn't. I first moved to NYC in 2014. I joined the military shortly after September 2001, motivated, in part, by anger and a desire for revenge. It was a long time ago and those were different times and I was a different person. Brycehughes (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Totally understood. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:58, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, no I didn't. I first moved to NYC in 2014. I joined the military shortly after September 2001, motivated, in part, by anger and a desire for revenge. It was a long time ago and those were different times and I was a different person. Brycehughes (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- That was just a question out of curiosity. I already accepted your apology above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've already apolgised. Brycehughes (talk) 00:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's OK. By the way, though, did you live there in September, 2001? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, sorry for the flippant edit summary. For what it's worth, I live in NYC. Brycehughes (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- So back to the specific topic: We New Yorkers are sensitive about claims that we're not patriotic, etc. Sure, many of us are not rah-rah about the U.S. most of the time, due in part to our cynicism about the giant sucking sound that's our tax dollars going to states like Mississippi that bite the hands that feed them, and many (but IMO, sometimes not enough) of us are critical of aspects of U.S. foreign policy, but we weren't attacked in 2001 for being New Yorkers but for being Americans, so as far as we're concerned, people questioning our Americanism or patriotism can go fuck themselves 1,000 times with sharp metal implements. I realize that your motivation wasn't the same as theirs, but that's why I reacted the way I did. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- We're getting off-topic now, but I am half-American and I've had the privilege to dip in and out of the USA since my early teens. I graduated from high school in Idaho, a very conservative state. I joined the US Navy. I've lived in many US states. I'd say generally no... Americans think for themselves politically, but it is in general quite a private thing, despite what you might pick up from media and friends. Loud American voices tend to be very loud (figuratively and literally), but this is only a subset of a very large country. It is difficult to get to know America, and Americans, because there is often a reticence to talk about values, politics, etc., unlike what you might find in Europe. And you need to keep in mind it is a very large country that values, deeply, a diversity of opinion, so to take one American's opinion and generalize is a bit dangerous. Brycehughes (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- But speaking of which, isn't American exceptionalism something that gets drilled into every American kid's head in school? I'm honestly surprised by the results you just quoted. Even my colleague who is a political dissident from China and now a naturalized American citizen has said that she considers the U.S. Constitution to be the greatest document ever written in the history of the world. She said that she's deeply touched by the selflessness of America's founding fathers in rejecting power for themselves and insisting that it be given to the American people instead, and she believes that this is why America will always have the best government policies in the world, and will be the greatest and most powerful country in the world until the end of time. The dog2 (talk) 01:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's fine. I didn't replace it with "unpatriotic". I simply think that saying that Americans are in general "patriotic" is incorrect, when roughly 1/3 are not. Brycehughes (talk) 00:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- What I was trying to get at is that complaining about certain aspects of American society doesn't mean they're unpatriotic. Many African-Americans will complain about the discrimination they face, but at the same time will still declare that they're very proud to be American. But OK, I guess it depends on perspective. I am from Singapore, and I have to say that the average Singaporean at least on the surface doesn't have that same level of pride in the nation that the average American, Australian or Chinese has. Perhaps that's because we're a young nation that has never fought a war since independence, let alone won one, and our founding fathers had to create a national identity from scratch given that one didn't exist at the time Malaysia kicked us out in 1965. The dog2 (talk) 00:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think you're getting at the fact that my edit summary was a bit flippant – and it was. It was an edit summary. I would not describe Americans in general as noteworthy-ly patriotic vis-a-vis Turks, Tajikistanis or Hungarians, for random examples. I think that race is beside the point and doesn't need to be brought up. It's simply that there are significant numbers of Americans that would not consider themselves patriotic, as evidenced, for example, here. Brycehughes (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- The question is, are they just a fringe subculture? So far, most of the African-Americans, Latinos and Asian-Americans I have met are quite patriotic towards the U.S. even if they may complain about discrimination. The dog2 (talk) 00:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)