Talk:Cambodia Voyage Tips and guide

Oof! The editing of CIA data suggests that this article is ripe for defactbookization. Anyone up for it? --(WT-en) Evan 23:40, 4 Jan 2004 (EST)

Comments would be appreciated on the efforts of the non-profit organization, Heritage Watch, encouraging travelers to visit businesses that have been certified Heritage Friendly would be appreciated. Heritage Friendly certification indicates that these businesses are supporting the arts, culture and heritage of Cambodia in various ways as well as contributing to development projects. It is our opinion that people should be encouraged to patronize these businesses while visiting Cambodia and the ability to recognize the logo is helpful. Thank you jpatokal for your comments by the way and suggesting a discussion here.

I would be OK with a mention under Buy, as currently in Phnom Penh#Buy, but not the listings themselves, since your "certification" expires yearly. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:51, 27 January 2009 (EST)

I've edited the section on land mines to better reflect reality. As I've written, 99.9% of tourists will never be at any risk of stepping on a mine. It's important to be aware of the issue of mines that the country as a whole faces, but to present the threat to tourists as anything other than virtually nonexistant is irresponsible. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 24.85.171.109 (talk • contribs)

I've undid your edit. It's more important to give all potential travelers advice, not just tourists. We hope our guides will be useful to the NGO volunteer who will spend 95% of his/her time in the places that tourists will never go and that may be in a very isolated place with the risk of mines. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 00:47, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

Even still, what I've written applies to non-tourists as well. Very few people make it out to areas such as those affected by land mines, NGO workers included. The only NGO workers who spend time in mine affected areas are demining crews, and they certainly have better knowledge than this site could ever hope to provide. We are not a conventional guidebook, we do not have to be politically correct. A better statement on my part would be that no foreigner has ever fallen victim to land mines of any kind. In practical terms, no one outside tourists uses these guides anyways.

I'm obviously not an expert on Cambodia, but the new text seems reasonable to me, although the "you will never see a land mine text" may be going a bit far. My understanding is that the danger to tourists from landmines in Cambodia is on par with the danger in the Falkland Islands, so providing similar warnings - basically "be aware that there is a potential danger and ask locals when venturing into less-traveled areas" - should be sufficient. -- (WT-en) Ryan ^(talk) 02:15, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

I've toned down the text a little. I'm also fairly sure there have been foreign casualties due to mines: the Khmer Rouge, for one, liked to ambush trains with mines and several foreigners were killed in an attack near Sihanoukville in the 1990s. Of course this is a little different from just stepping on an old one by accident... (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:33, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

I just returned for Cambodia 4/19/08. Although we never considered landmines in the cities, temples or beaches, there were frequent reminders that they are still a danger. From the bus between Phnom Pehn and Siem Reap, we saw several Land Mine warning signs not far from the road on Highway 6. We were told they are still fairly common in the Northeast provinces, especially "off the path" near bridges and the borders. You won't stuble across one as you tour Angkor Wat, but it would be smart to at least advise travelers to consult local guides before wandering off on their own when away from the cities.- shadomoon

Kampong Cham lists all prices in US dollars. Is use of the dollar in Cambodia so widespread, and so more prevalent than use of the local currency, that we should make an exception to the prices guidelines on accommodation listings and friends? I think this is a case where the traveller comes first and we shouldn't list prices out in the local currency if travellers will never see those prices; however, I'd like to know if that's the case. --(WT-en) Evan 10:31, 6 Dec 2005 (EST)

Costs for Cambodia should be listed in USD. In practice, travellers only use riel as small change - prices are quoted in USD, payments made in USD, even the ATMs issue USD (and not riel).

Interesting. Do non-US travellers change money into US$ before going to Cambodia? --(WT-en) Evan 12:00, 6 Dec 2005 (EST)

Virtually always. You can spend Thai baht (& get a competitive rate) in the areas bordering Thailand, but otherwise you need to bring in USD (&/or TCs, but USD is easier to work with). Prior to 2005 no ATMs; currently just a handful in Phnom Penh (Siem Reap to follow suit round about now). Even amongst non-tourists, USD is the preferred currency for amounts over and above a couple of beers.

Our anonymous friend is correct. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:32, 6 Dec 2005 (EST)

Please don't use "USD", which is a currency code, not a word. "US$" is the correct abbreviation for "US dollar". (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:37, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

Wasn't sure where this should go on the discussiong page, but the entry about using a cell phone SIM card does not match my experience in the past month. CellCard sells cards for around $2. It's pay-as-you-go. They take a copy of your passport and have you fill out a form, and that's it.

Over the years our page dealing with currency in our Manual of Style has simplified and streamlined its advice.

Currently the Cambodian riel is not one of the "universally known currency notation exceptions" and a price should be listed like KHR1,234 rather than 1,234 riel.

Since the US dollar is also used as a parallel currency in Cambodia, if we were to lobby for a change, it would also imply that we would switch from the USD25 notation to the 25 US dollars notation for another Cambodian exception to maintain symmetry wouldn't it? --118.93nzp (talk) 00:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have no first-hand knowledge of Cambodia. On the subject of currencies, my understanding is the following: a) WV recently decided to go with USD in preference to US$. I too prefer the ISO standard. b) The convention on Cambodia articles when I joined was "US$x" and "x riel". I have followed this convention and see no problem with it (taking into account the recent switch to "USD"). c) My assumption has been, perhaps unfounded, that Cambodian ATMs dispense USD. Can someone confirm this? d) I have no "religion" when it comes to currency notation except that I have a bias towards ISO standards where they make sense. In Thailand, e.g., one rarely sees "THB" or even "฿" so we elected to use the "USDx/x baht" convention.Seligne (talk) 02:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Like much of this MoS stuff, it's no big deal either way and we certainly don't want to give the impression - either to new editors or seasoned editors like yourself that have been adding great content - that it is. Normally, due to my work patterns, I've done insignificant and trivial copy editing that doesn't require a huge time commitment and that I can abandon at a moment's notice with no great regrets. That said, I do like simple and consistent rules that I can apply as I work through an article section by section and, for that reason alone, I just love the new simplified rules that mean I use the three letter ISO standard unless the country is found in that list of exceptions or the case is an exception for some other reason. Turning to your lettered points, Seligne:

a) Yes, we have three possibilities for the Greenback:

i) USD - used everywhere except for the countries where it is an official currency

ii) $ symbol - used in the USA everywhere except where it would be ambiguous, when we revert to USD

iii) strange situations where we might need to use the full prose of US dollar(s)

b) Yes, there's no urgent need (except perhaps for a StarNom) to make edits that just correct these old but perfectly understandable formats. However, when copyediting a section or page and making a variety of corrections, it would be best practice to follow our current wv:$ page and change US$123 to USD123 and 123 riel(s) to KHR123

c) Unfortunately I have been to most of the countries of the world at one time or another and I can remember receiving US dollars out of an ATM in Siem Riep. I seem to remember that it had something that I thought odd in the name at the time like Candia or Canada or something phonetically similar...

d) I also prefer something that's been thrashed out by the ISO experts - often after long years of debate, other things being equal.

Conclusion: if we've understood each other, we both think that there is no need to argue for a new exception to be made to wv:$ in the case of Cambodia. --118.93nzp (talk) 05:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Later: seems like my memory was accurate. See http://www.canadiabank.com/atm_moneygram.aspx --118.93nzp (talk) 05:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I added content to the respect section. The things I put I feel are highly relevant based on what I personally observed while in Cambodia. Many tourists go there with a hardcore bargaining mindset, while Khmers themselves are rather meek and mellow bargainers and not hard to get the best price of. Some tourists will spend endless hours haggling for the best possible price, then go to a western owned bar and buy $20 worth of drinks without so much as an "eep" of protest, which is downright disrespectful. (WT-en) Brian Hnatiak

Agreed, with one exception: taxi/motodup/tuktuk drivers. Especially in the larger cities, they try to rip off tourists. It has happened to me on several occasions after walking away from a driver they came after me, dropping the fare they asked by half or even 4 times. (WT-en) Hans Hoppe

I second Hans Hoppel's comment about drivers in Phnom Penh and Siem Reap. Especially around the backpacker or tourist areas, they will try to convince you (beyond bargaining) that it should be that expensive. Persistence and be willing to walk away often leads them to agree to a reasonable price, but not always. Also, be absolutely sure they've agreed to the price before you get on. If they just ignore you or kind of nod, they're going to try to get more out of you at the end of the trip. It's true about not bargaining down to bone in the markets, as well. Aiming for a middle ground where both of you are happy usually works out for the best.

The tipping customs would be a welcome addition. It should probably be included on every national page, and every subnational page where the tipping customs differ within the country.

From out recent visit, we learned to tip 1000 riel for a normal restraunt, 1500 riel for a nicer one (we're not talking about the 5-star resorts, but the local communities). Do not leave the money on the table or in the receipt holder (they will think you just forgot it), but place it directly in the hand of the server. Even though many restraunts are fairly westernized, most seemed a bit confused about the concept of a gratuity. This seems like a small amount, and I'm sure even a $1 bill would be welcomed. Most meals are priced about $4, so a big meal and Cokes for two comes in under $15 total.

Some shops in New York City have started accepting Euros in addition to dollars. Are Euros being accepted in Cambodia yet?

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0655798320080206 http://www.nypost.com/seven/05252008/news/regionalnews/euro_welcome_112484.htm

141.76.45.34 21:55, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

Moneychangers are happy to exchange them, but no, the general public will not. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:55, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

It's definately an option, when you travel from Europe. I go to Cambodia avery year. The exchange rate is better than in Europe. So you can exchange Euro to Dollar. Every money changer will do it. -- (WT-en) DerFussi 05:19, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Mates,

does anyone used the eVisa Service in the last month? I travel to Cambodia in March and would like to avoid the visit at the Cambodian Embassy because the work to apply for a visa is rather heavy compared to an online option. (WT-en) jan 05:40, 7 January 2009 (EST)

You don't need to do either -- most visitors can apply for and receive their visas right at the border. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:42, 7 January 2009 (EST)

You should use the e-visa. I'ts very easy and reliable. Especially if you want to enter Cambodia via land. The behaviour of the staff at the Cambodian checkpoint is unbelievable meanwhile. Its a terrible rip-off. Especially at the border point Trat/Koh Kong. They accept only Thai Baht (although it cost 20 Dollar). I got a report that all travellers of one bus had to reimmigrate to Thailand and go to an ATM to get Baht. And nobody can stop that cause Koh Kong is far away from Phnom Penh. I wrote a letter to the secretary of the ministry of tourism about the situations at the border checkpoints and the embassies cause he asked for a report but its still not possible to get this under control. I go to Cambodia every year and get feedback from many travellers. If you enter by plane you can get your visa on arrival at the airport of Siem Reap or Phnom Penh. This year I spent a week in Kuala Lumpur before going to Cambodia. You can apply for your visa in KL. It takes only one day and costs 80 Ringgit (around 20 Dollar). Its really easy and a good option. -- (WT-en) DerFussi 08:42, 19 February 2009 (EST)

It really depends how far your are from the Cambodian Embassy in your Country. The EVisa at 25$ means to spend 5 dollars more which might be easely spent by travelling from yr home to the Embassy. I think EVisa is worth. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 119.82.253.137 (talk • contribs)

The situation is the same as (WT-en) Jpatokal made out back in 2009: most nationalities can get the visa on arrival at the land border or airport. Therefore the extra $5 is an unnecessary expense.(WT-en) Travelpleb 08:17, 26 May 2012 (EDT)

This article currently shows six regions. I propose some changes:

• Merging the Cardomom Mountains and Elephant Mountains into one region (this is an almost continuous mountain range).

• Redefining the Central Plains as The Mekong Lowlands and Central Plains (better term that travellers will easily relate to).

• Merging Rattanakiri and Chhlong Highlands into one region and for want of a better name, just calling it Eastern Cambodia. Otherwise, we will have two very small regions in the east. This also allows use of the Mekong as a highly practical and relevant dividing line between the central plains/lowlands and the east.

Then we would have four similarly sized regions with provinces assigned as follows:

Cardamom and Elephant Mountains

• Provinces: Pursat (Pousat), Koh Kong, Battambang, Kampong Spoe, Kampot, Kep, Pailin, Sihanoukville.

Mekong Lowlands and Central Plains

• Provinces: Phnom Penh, Takeo, Kandal, Kampong Cham, Kampong Chhnang, Kampong Thom, Kratie to the west of the Mekong, Prey Veng, Svay Rieng

Eastern Cambodia

• Provinces: Mondolkiri, Rattanakiri, Kratie to the west of the Mekong, Stoeng Treng to the east of the Mekong

Dangrek Mountains

• Provinces: Banteay Meanchey, Oddar Meanchey, Preah Vihear, Siem Reap, Stoeng Treng to the west of the Mekong.

I think this makes sense but comments please! --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:12, 26 November 2009 (EST)

Comments from anyone who has been to Cambodia or has an informed interest in the country really would be appreciated as I have a good looking map pretty much done aside from the regional borders. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:15, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I won't claim to be an expert on Cambo, but calling any region spanning Siem Reap "Dangrek Mountains" seems a little odd to me, as the area is flat as a pancake, and this is the only part 99% of visitors to the region see. Would "(North)Western Cambodia" be too misleading? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:07, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Point taken although a fair bit of Siem Reap province is mountainous and the Dangrek Mountains span the north of it. But as few visitors ever get further north than Angkor, I guess it could be confusing. North-Western Cambodia would be fine for me. Another option would be to split the Siem Reap province with the flat bit going into Mekong Lowlands and Central Plains. Have you been to Laos Jani? If so please have a gander at my regional proposal there. Cheers.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:20, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Done and map uploaded. Comments are still very welcome. I think it works quite nicely now though. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:10, 5 December 2009 (EST)

I note that Sen Monorom was added to, reverted from and then again added to the cities listed against Eastern Cambodia in the Regions section. This occurred while I was contemplating where this city was best placed because it had previously been put into the city list and then reverted simply because there were more than 9 cities listed. So what is the policy for including cities in the regionlist that are not also mentioned in the Cities section? - 10:22, 3 January 2010 (EST)

I am not sure I understand that question. Do you mean which cities can be added to the regionlist table in the country article? If so, I would say that with a country like Cambodia where there are not, nor ever will be, too many, the answer is all of them. Looking at the edit history, Sen Monorom was only ever reverted from the list of 9 cities (correctly), not from the regionlist table. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:49, 3 January 2010 (EST)

We do not have a policy on what types of items or how many items can be listed under the regionitems field of the regionlist template. (Trying to come up with a good one would be a pain...) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:17, 3 January 2010 (EST)

An understanding of Cambodia should include a mention of the French colonial period. It should at least mention that taxes were levied, and resources taken. As to whether in line with our guideline on tone that translates to "plundered" - well to the extent it is an exaggeration I believe it is with our guidelines. --(WT-en) inas 03:25, 25 February 2010 (EST)

Quite correct. The French are sometimes very sensitive about their inglorious colonial past.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:33, 25 February 2010 (EST)

You peoples not knowing Cambodia history. It is very wrong to writes France so bad to country. They saved Cambodia from Thailand who wanted country. They build many beutiful buildings. They build roads. They left wonderful food. if French so bad then why many of Cambodia peoples and some Royals people go live there now. If you wants to write about bad foreigh peoples why not America -> they bombed this country with much bombs aftar 1970, they give support and muchs money to KR aftar Viet Nam help to liberate from KR. I want change word about French becaus what you write is wrong and I wants adds words on bombing. Thanksyou - Sopheap Phay

I largely agree with Mr. Sopheap Phay and so when I have more time I will modify the content. (and before anyone accuses me of French biase, I am Hendrik, a S.African currently living in Siem Reap.)

OK, as noted above I have started an edit to better reflect the history, including: (i) to claim the French taxed the country suggests this was somehow unique .. all governments do! The Khmer people were taxed (heavily) before the French, they were taxed after the French and are still taxed, (ii) some of the taxes levied by the French administration were used for the good of the country, inc. building the infrastructure, laying out towns & cities, most especially Phnom Penh & undertaking restoration work on Angkor Wat & other significant cultural sites without which they would be in a very worst state today, and (iii) added about the US bombing that was instigated by Richard Nixon, this did untold damage to huge areas of the country. And, before I am accused of any biase I am South African, am not pro-French and I am not anti-American, I was just adding content to the article (I do confess though to finding the content had been a little anti-French and the omission of any mention of the devastating carpet bombing could be seen as whitewashing of what some have claimed was a US war crime.) When I have more time I will undertake some more edits of the housekeeping type. Hendrik.

By and large good edits I think.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:58, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

Can anyone think of any good reason why that should be in the article? I'm wracking my brain and can't come up with one. If no-one can come up with an important reason to keep the photo, it should be deleted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:02, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Agreed(WT-en) Travelpleb 10:56, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for your second opinion. I have removed the photo. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:04, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Jpatokal, you deleted this whole section with no explanation. Can you explain your reasoning? Thanks, Seligne (talk) 05:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Try scrolling down a bit or looking at the diff a bit more carefully, my edit added 11 bytes. I just moved the currency info to the top where it belongs, and the random shopping tips to the end. Jpatokal (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

This sounds inaccurate to me. Is it nevertheless true? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Well, rehydration involves an intake of water and salts lost via sweating or diarrhoea. I think that is what it is trying to say. Not sure about the soy-sauce, though. --Inas (talk) 04:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Curious about this I consulted the Mayo Clinic, Rice U, et al., websites. Not one mentions a lack of salt as a cause or dehydration. Most advise that too much salt and not enough water can lead to an even more serious condition. FYI, here is the Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dehydration/DS00561/DSECTION=causes. Seligne (talk) 05:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's what I would have expected. And therefore, this misinformation should be deleted if it hasn't already been deleted (I'll check). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is a summary of the conventions used on Cambodia articles. All are either codified in the Manual of Style or were arrived at by discussion or custom.

Currency: KHR (most prices in USD)

Temperature: Celsius

Time: 24-hour clock

Measurements: Metric

Spelling:: British English

Telephone numbers: A Cambodian landline number should be listed like:

+855 nk 123-4567

where "855" is the country code for Cambodia, the first digit of the area code, "n", will be a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7; the second digit of the area code, "k" will be a digit in the range 2-6. (The leading zero seen domestically is stripped off in the international format.) The remaining 6 or 7 digits (conjoined with a hyphen) are the "local" part of the subscriber's number.

Mobile phone numbers begin with a 1, 8 or 9 which is then followed by seven or eight digits. Of course the full number of a mobile phone must always be dialled - so there is no "local" part designated with a hyphen:

+855 1 1234 5678

Seligne (talk) 00:23, 14 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

The above does not reflect what travellers will see in Cambodia in 2020, so I am going to update this. "Riel" is more common than "KHR", although both are used. "៛" is only used on Khmer-language text, so it is not useful for travellers. Many prices are expressed in "US$" or "$", but not in "USD". U.S. spelling is more common than British spelling.

Currency: riel (most prices in US$)

Temperature: Celsius

Time: 24-hour clock

Measurements: Metric

Spelling:: American English

Telephone numbers: A Cambodian landline number should be listed like:

+855 nk 123-4567

where "855" is the country code for Cambodia, the first digit of the area code, "n", will be a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7; the second digit of the area code, "k" will be a digit in the range 2-6. (The leading zero seen domestically is stripped off in the international format.) The remaining 6 or 7 digits (conjoined with a hyphen) are the "local" part of the subscriber's number.

Mobile phone numbers begin with a 1, 8 or 9 which is then followed by seven or eight digits. Of course the full number of a mobile phone must always be dialled - so there is no "local" part designated with a hyphen:

+855 1 1234 5678

Ground Zero (talk) 05:39, 1 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

So in this section it says: "Much of the population still subsists on less than the equivalent of US$1 a day, the provision of even basic services remains spotty." This is not accurate anymore. According to the UNDP Human Development Report 2015 only 10.1% of Cambodians live on less than $1.25 (purchasing power parity) per day now. (http://www.cambcomm.org.uk/ff.php)

Also they have mobile phone coverage literally everywhere now. We saw some mobile phone towers in some remote floating villages on the Tonle Sap. So quite a transition took place.

Could somebody please edit the article to reflect the new facts? I would try to do it myself but I'm only on my phone and wouldn't want to mess up the article.

Thanks. Thomas —The preceding comment was added by 110.74.221.69 (talk • contribs)

Hello and welcome. I would encourage you to add or change anything you know about; don't wait for someone else to do it. Wikis depend on individuals plunging forward. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

I deleted the following text from the article, since individual listings belong in the relevant city articles, not the country article. Since it seems informative and well-intended, however, I'm posting it here so the content might be used in the proper places.

Motorcycle Tour Companies

Today there are over 29 motorcycle touring companies in Cambodia to suit most budgets and vary in organizational structure from Khmer owned businesses, to Khmer / western shared partnerships, to foreign principals organizing tours with established ground operators in Cambodia (essentially reselling tours and potentially exploiting local guides financially). As such, quality and safety can be wide and varied. Reputable, authentic ground operators will have a Cambodian Tourism License displayed on their website. Best to research well before undertaking such adventures. Most offer single or multi-day trips across the whole country, great for those that want to get far off the beaten path to see the places that a tourist bus could never reach. Again it pays to do your own research. Below is a list of just a few of the companies currently operating:

Cambodia Expeditions is the longest operating ground handler and tour operator in Cambodia. Established in 1998, they were the pioneers of the motorcycle adventure industry in Cambodia, its earliest roots founded on organized rally raids under the shared banner of Angkor Dirt Bike Tours, until the company was set up officially in 1998 to cater to a wider style of adventurers that preferred full support whilst traveling the remotest areas of Cambodia. Today it is a fully locally owned business, offering high-end tours, with one expatriate employee, and the onus on being fully immersed in the local culture, and having an experienced westerner on the team too. Most local guides have worked with them, and still do. Offering itineraries from single day to 21 days on an all inclusive basis.

[1] Dancing Roads] has been offering tours since 2000, and is an English / Khmer partnership.

Straydog has been running since 2005 and is a foreign owned partnership that is based in Sihanoukville. Offering single day to 14 day itineraries, all inclusive basis except food and drink.

Kickstart is a western/Khmer partnership that has been operating since 2008. Based in Siem Reap, they offer itineraries from half day to eleven days.

JuliasTravels (talk) 16:24, 8 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'd say the first part of the text is pretty useful. Rather than reverting completely, the individual operators (I see 2 of them stricly based to a city, though) should've been just moved to the respective cities... -- andree.sk(talk) 16:26, 11 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Could this information perhaps fit better in the Motorcycling article, or is this more about tours than motorcycles? What we perhaps want to avoid is touting here, and considering WV:Tour I would think the best thing to do is remove everything except the first paragraph. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

The price subsections for restaurants in some of our Cambodian city articles are kind of a mess, with some of the "mid-range" restaurants seemingly cheaper than the "budget" restaurants. (For instance in Siem Reap we have a "budget" restaurant for $4.50-17 and a "mid-range" restaurant for $2-5.) Should we try to agree on price ranges corresponding to "Budget", "Mid-range", and "Splurge" for restaurants in Cambodia? Or at least for Phnom Penh and Siem Reap? —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:38, 6 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

My perception is that PP is a but much re expensive than SR, but I wasn't in PP long enough to be sure. Here's a stab at pric s for main dishes:

Budget <US$4, mid-range US$4-10, Splurge >US$10.

The splurgiest place we've been was Bopha, a lovely riverside resto in PP, where we had a 3-course menu for, I think, US$13. Mains were under $10. I expect you could easily spend more without trying hard. Ground Zero (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Those sound about right to me - I was thinking maybe Budget <US$5 (including drink). I didn't notice much of a price difference between PP and SR, but you could be right that PP is a little more expensive. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:47, 6 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Budget <$5 keeps it simple. That works for me. Thanks for taking this on. Ground Zero (talk) 00:47, 7 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'll wait a day or two, and if no one else comments, I'll add templates to Phnom Penh and Siem Reap and start rearranging the subsections accordingly. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:58, 7 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

This description:

• 11.569583104.9210281 Phnom Penh — the rough, dirty capital

sort of discourages a traveller from going to Cambodia at first sight. Would there be a better description for that? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:29, 21 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I haven't been there, but if it's accurate, it falls under Wikivoyage:Be fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

I have improved it based on my impression of the city early last year. It isn't one of the great cities of the world, but it is a worthwhile stop for those who want to see more of Cambodia than the Angkor complex. Ground Zero (talk) 11:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

:) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:03, 21 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

In recent months, there is a surge of human trafficking reported in Cambodia, Myanmar and Thailand, where travellers (mainly Taiwanese travellers, Chinese travellers were more common pre-COVID) were tricked by fake job offers, travelled to and abducted in these countries, and forced to work for criminal syndicates like slaves. In response to the trend, I have issued warnings for articles of Cambodia (particularly Sihanoukville), Myanmar (particularly Northern Myanmar) and Thailand.

References (all in Chinese):

• w:zh:柬埔寨人口販賣事件, the article recording the surge on Chinese Wikipedia.
• Travel warning (highest level) for Cambodia, issued by Taiwanese MFA.
• Information page by the Taiwanese MFA.
• News report by Taiwanese investigative journalist The Reporter, covering the background of the surge and involvement of local Taiwanese gangs.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper am730.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao, illustrating the death of a victim.
• News report by Hong Kong newspaper Ming Pao highlighting Hong Kong travellers have also fallen into victim, luckily most of them are successfully rescued.
• News report (in English) by The Diplomat, illustrating the seriousness of the trend.

Please check if there are problems of over-bolding or other grammatical problems, and feel free to add more on advices if necessary.廣九直通車 (talk) 06:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, that's a good addition (the warnings are in 'Work', for anyone else interested). If you haven't already done so, it might be a good idea to add these to zh.wikivoyage.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

This seems horrendous and frightful should definitely be mentioned. Thanks for adding them 廣九直通車. Agree with tt! that it might be a good idea to add this to zh.voy. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I'll keep on my sentry work, just like how I made my first warning on COVID for Wuhan (sigh it's almost 2 years and the pandemic still doesn't come to an end...). Will follow up on Chinese Wikivoyage.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, ThunderingTyphoons!: While the entire Chinese Wikivoyage is mostly empty (that's why I'm more focused in here), I've also Done with the warnings at there: see voy:zh:柬埔寨, voy:zh:泰国, voy:zh:緬甸 and voy:zh:西哈努克. Perhaps after there are no further comments, this thread should be swept to the corresponding article talk pages.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

We do have some cautionary info at Working_abroad#Stay_safe, Common_scams#Employment_and_charity_scams and Volunteer_travel#Be_wary. I wonder if those need to be expanded or if some links should be added either in this article or in those.

Certainly variations on the problem are fairly widespread. In my own travels I've encountered:

• • Filipinas trapped in exploitive jobs in Saudi Arabia (1980s, not sure if it still happens). She cannot leave the country without an exit visa and getting that requires the boss's signature. He says she's a lazy bitch & he's not signing. She says he beat or raped her, often both. My advice would be don't go anywhere where you'd need an exit visa to leave.
  • An agency charging Chinese nurses large up-front fees for placements in Canada on domestic servant visas taking care of disabled people, mostly Alzheimer's patients. Salary might have sounded good to a Chinese, but it was much less than you'd get working at McDonald's and hours were much longer.

Things I've only heard about include an Indian diplomat in the US mistreating domestic help (w:Devyani Khobragade incident), Fujian girls being smuggled to Taipei being thrown overboard when the Taiwan Coast Guard caught the boats [2], Snakehead gangs importing prostitutes to the US. Pashley (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here pickers of wild berries are imported from e.g. south-east Asia. They often have to take loans for the journey. The buyers of the berries arrange visa, travel, accommodation, intro, transport to the woods etc., but usually do not employ them. One year the harvest was weak and the pickers couldn't pay the loans. Volunteers helped them go to court to claim employment, but the pickers couldn't afford to stay during the multiple-year process, so they settled at terms they could live with. The berry-pickers are still not regarded employees, but to get visas for their labour, the buyers now need to guarantee a minimum income (and there are more eyes on lodgings, rents etc.). We have also had a number of outright illegal arrangements, mainly in other trades. The common denominator seems to be loans and threat of being expelled from the country for illegal work, in the cases where it isn't about direct slavery. For those who have an income at home, the risk of being expelled isn't a reason to remain in slavery, but if you have family you cannot feed without the foreign income ... The criminals may also threaten you and your family in your country of origin, especially if the justice is weak there. –LPfi (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I support these warnings. Last night I added caution boxes to Tachileik [3] and Myawaddy [4] on the same issue. And it is not just targetting individuals who speak Chinese. Malaysian[5] and Indonesian[6] were also targetted by the same group of fraudsters. This merits posting in English to reach as wide audience as possible. I do not think this is the typical "run of the mills" employment scams since those commons scams only want your money. The current scam hold you hostage and force you to work for them. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate these kinds of warnings. They are important. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Update: It seems that not only aspirant workers are falling victim, criminals are also targeting the average travellers. Some may recruit workers in local front companies and traffic victims en masse using company tours, others may use individualized vacation invitation to lure them to these countries (see this report by HK TV Channel i-Cable), all followed up by abduction. I genuinely don't know when will the criminals resort to random abduction if the situation worsens. Given by such worrying scenario, I have raised the warnings to the top of all these articles. Please advice if this is appropriate or they should be send back to stay safe, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also thanks to OhanaUnited for leaving proper warning, have upgraded these warnings to {{warningbox}}based on the template's usage guidelines.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I read that Laos may also be one of the destinations.[7] I propose adding the same warning to Laos. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 22:15, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The warningbox at the top of the article should be very brief. Most of the information could be in Work (not necessarily in a warning box), that relevant also for those not intending to find work in Stay safe. Some of this should probably be in Working abroad and Common scams. –LPfi (talk) 06:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for Mx. Granger's and your opinion. I have send these warnings back to "Work" and "Stay safe" (if work is not yet created). Though do you think a very brief warning on the top with link to the more detailed warning is OK?廣九直通車 (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The warning starts with: Telecommunication fraud, illegal remote gambling are rampant in parts of Thailand and its neighbours, Myanmar and Cambodia. How does this relate to te rest of the info in the warning box? --FredTC (talk) 06:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@FredTC: You mean the warning for Thailand? I make special remark on Cambodia and Myanmar, because Thailand is a major transit hub for human traffickers to transit victims from their country to their bases in Cambodia and Myanmar, though criminal bases do exist in Thailand (like the notorious "KK園區", not sure what's its English name). The remainder of the warning focus on common methods used by human traffickers and ways to avoid them. If you have concerns about coherence, please make your point clearer, thank you.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I mean the "Telecommunication fraud, illegal remote gambling" -part of the text. FredTC (talk) 09:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

For that part I tried to lay down the context and background. After all, criminals don't traffic and abduct victims for no reason, they do these because they need to recruit manpower for them.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply