Wikivoyage talk:How to handle unwanted edits Voyage Tips and guide

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I have made a proposal to make a change to WV:User page help that includes a change to this page. Please see the discussion at Wikivoyage_talk:User_page_help#Proposal_4. Ground Zero (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Done Ground Zero (talk) 15:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

On Meta, it says "Only IP addresses can be globally blocked at this moment." How do you find the IP address of someone's username? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Only a checkuser or a steward can do that. However, usernames can be globally locked, which I believe is effectively the same as being globally blocked in practice. File a report here. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

By the way, the account you blocked a few minutes ago has already been reported and globally locked. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Great and thanks! I'm going to look at this page to see if the instructions are clear enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ikan, this topic is covered in the "Spambots" section of the page, where you might have overlooked it. Maybe that info should be moved from the "Spambots" section to the "User ban" section, since it is applicable to more than just spambots. Nurg (talk) 01:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I actually looked first in "Vandalism", and when I didn't see the information I was looking for there, I looked at "User ban". I don't think we can expect people to look for this information under "Spambots" when it's about vandals. Spambots are usually fairly easy to deal with: Just block them once and they usually disappear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Is it so that when part of an edit is oversighted, mere admins cannot change visibility settings anymore? I have sometimes noticed an action being denied, where I have tried to hide additional fields. Or is this just something weird happening in the user interface? Sometimes it seems these actions succeed, perhaps when doing them via the right (un-updated?) pages. –LPfi (talk) 17:23, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have no answers, but have noticed that I can't view the diff in mobile mode, but I can on desktop mode (still on my phone).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

It did happen recently that when a steward oversighted something, I had no way to view the changes, but I don't think it happens when admins or bureaucrats oversight something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

It looks to me as if the "deny recognition" option is being seriously overused. It used to be easy to see why something was reverted, now it is often annoyingly difficult. Recently I even found a block log entry & some deletion log entries I could not read. This seems absurd. Pashley (talk) 01:24, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think some of the remaining language from Wikivoyage's old, naive days should be deleted or edited. A case in point is this section (the next 3 paragraphs):

It can happen that, even after having been notified with polite but firm requests, a contributor continues to make deliberate unwanted edits. The response, as usual, is to revert them. Again, and again, and again, as long as is necessary.

Our community and professional attitude are stronger than any particular person's commitment to mess up the guide. It may seem kind of annoying and distracting, but it actually strengthens the project when we deal with problems like this. It only takes a very little time to correct unwanted edits, fix mistakes, and keep the guide in good shape.

If you get tired of following around a particular person making unwanted edits, let it slide. Someone else will jump in. If you have to, ask for help from other Wikivoyagers. Continue to try to make contact, look for ways to come to a solution that pleases all sides. Always concentrate on the edits themselves, and not getting drawn into personal issues.

I'll post a draft of an edited version below (2 paragraphs):

It can happen that, even after having been notified with polite but firm requests, a contributor continues to make deliberate unwanted edits. If they are edit warring about something unimportant, seriously consider whether it wouldn't be best to concede the point and move on to more important tasks, such as adding content. Otherwise, the response should be to start a thread on the talk page of the relevant article, laying out the disagreement and inviting them to give their argument there, or to invite them to start a thread on that page, but if you are an administrator, include a warning that continued edit warring without discussion could necessitate temporarily blocking their posting privileges.

If you get tired of following around a particular person making unwanted edits, let it slide. Someone else will jump in. If you have to, ask for help from other Wikivoyagers. Look for ways to come to a solution that pleases all sides whenever possible, and always concentrate on the edits themselves, rather than your feelings about the person making the edits.

How's that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but aren't "deliberate unwanted edits" made by a "particular person [showing a] commitment to mess up the guide" classed as vandalism? Why would there be a discussion with, or a concession made to, a vandal?

You seem to be thinking of edit disputes, where both sides are editing in good faith, if not entirely within the rules, and where both sides may have valid points to discuss and build common ground, but that's not the sort of edit described in the original text.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

"Deliberate unwanted edits" is in the preexisting language, as you can see, not something I thought up. Would you like to propose some changes in the language? Is it clear which language is the current phraseology and which language is my draft edit? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think there are four types of users mixed up in the section. They can sometimes be difficult to recognise from each other, but should be handled separately:

• Touts. I think we should not try to make compromises with those.
• Experimenting newcomers. They might not have noticed messages on the talk page. Some can be recruited, but whether those are worth the effort of personal communication with all of them is not clear, especially as vandals often pose as newcomers.
• Good faith editors that think they know best. Sometimes they may have a good point, if you get them to discuss. If they are deaf or stubborn you may have to block them.
• Vandals and trolls.

–LPfi (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

OK, would you like to propose any language? The issue is that in this and in fact several other sections, the old, naive language of never blocking anyone and letting them keep on edit warring, disregarding policy and guidelines, etc., needs to be changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:19, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

LPfi made the point I was aiming for much better. I don't have the time to propose an alternative text, and if that means you all want to disregard my earlier comment, that's fair enough, but I'll continue to follow this discussion and maybe add further comments if they occur to me.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:42, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Nothing's being disregarded; it's just that the really useful thing would be for us to agree on better language. I can post all the examples of problematic language in this article, but if people are going to merely object to proposed changes without offering any alternatives, I have to question whether it would be a waste of my time. What I'll do, though, is if I have the time and inclination, I'll just post all the problematic language, without providing any proposed new drafts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:22, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

That's completely understandable. I don't want to waste anyone's time.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think my irritability is probably coming across. It's not personal and mostly relates to my life circumstances, which are paradoxically in many ways products of my time and place and not so unique. Anyway, let's just say that we should discuss why some language is problematic, but what will be better is when we can advance things by perhaps coming to at least some interim agreements that x and y are better than what's there now and replacing the problematic text while hashing out an agreement on a more nearly optimal form of words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your bringing this up and for your edits. I am sorry that I don't feel I can help very much with the wording just now. –LPfi (talk) 17:15, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

OK, so I'll just copy all the problematic language laid out here, without any proposed new language from me that could confuse you into thinking I wrote the existing problematic language or for you all to object to. Let's look at it all, and then maybe we can suggest changes for x, y or z sections.

In the "Defiance of policy" section:

While stubbornly plowing ahead in defiance of established policy is not the most effective or polite way to challenge a policy, it is nonetheless a potential opportunity for our community to review the policy in question. Is our policy really the right way to serve travelers and make a good travel guide?

My objection:

No it doesn't. Only a discussion on the relevant policy's talk page gives us an opportunity to review whether a policy is the right way to serve travelers, and while it's being reviewed, continuing to flout it is not OK, and is in fact the problem we had several years ago, most notably with Frank. I think that we need to make this clear before the last sentence in the section.

And once again, "Repeat offenses":

It can happen that, even after having been notified with polite but firm requests, a contributor continues to make deliberate unwanted edits. The response, as usual, is to revert them. Again, and again, and again, as long as is necessary.

Our community and professional attitude are stronger than any particular person's commitment to mess up the guide. It may seem kind of annoying and distracting, but it actually strengthens the project when we deal with problems like this. It only takes a very little time to correct unwanted edits, fix mistakes, and keep the guide in good shape.

My objections:

OK, I think it's obvious what the problem is. Does it need to be spelled out? Even the last of the 3 paragraphs in this section is problematic in context. See this sentence:

Continue to try to make contact, look for ways to come to a solution that pleases all sides.

This language hearkens back to the times when no-one was ever blocked for constantly violating policy and guidelines. We wasted loads and loads of person-hours trying to come to agreement, but there are just some people for whom it's "my way or the highway", and when that becomes clear, we need to show them to the highway and move on. I'd mention as a matter of site history that we lost several very valuable editors, including long-time administrators, over the debacle with Frank.

What follows this section is a "Last resorts" section, so effectively, we have contradictory language within the article.

I've tried to make it clear through indenting when I was quoting and when I wasn't. I hope I've clearly laid out the problematic language and now we can discuss how to improve it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the indenting is clear, although I'm starting a new subsection just to delineate the conversation from the problems; perhaps other sentences and paragraphs will be put up with the problems too.

For the first paragraph, I read it just as an introduction to the whole topic of "Defiance of policy". The section as a whole is a bit all over the place, as it contradicts itself over whether editing in defiance of policy is a good thing or not. Although it's not a wholly black and white issue, I think we should explicitly state that editing in defiance of policy, when that policy is under discussion, is never a good idea.

For the next lot of paragraphs ("Repeat offences"), yes the flaws are obvious. Para 1 advocates a never ending edit war without consequences for the participants, and Para 2 has been shown by time to be naïve bollocks; disruptive editing can be extremely time-consuming and stressful (especially when the advocated-for approach is taken, dragging out the drama for eternity) and, far from "making us stronger" inevitably exposes fractures in the team dynamic and causes arguments, upset, and general ill-feeling. As IK said, it literally drove good people away, because being forced by a system to bend over backwards to accommodate personality-disordered individuals who are hardwired to exploit anything and everything they can to an advantage is not what anyone signed up for when they joined an online travel guide.

So most of that needs to go, leaving just the first sentence and the bit about letting it slide if you're finding it too much to deal with. In its place, we need to tell it how it is: nobody is indispensable and if an individual cannot help but be disruptive, then after a period of discussion with them during which we encourage a change of behaviour, if it's not happening they'll be asked to leave, first for a little while, then for a longer while, and then forever. This could even be integrated into "Last resorts".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Exactly. No policy or guideline is a sacrosanct dictate, and all but I suppose the traveller comes first being the fundamental purpose of the site and some others that are required by law (such as copyright violation being banned) can always be open to possible change, but only through discussion that attains a new consensus on the relevant policy/guidelines talk pages, not by repeatedly ignoring or deliberately flouting existing policies and guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:13, 4 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Would anyone like to propose a new form of words for any of these passages? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have just RFC'd this.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Ikan Kekek's objections. In the "Defiance of policy" section:

Stubbornly plowing ahead in defiance of established policy is not an effective or polite way to challenge a policy. If you think our community should review the policy in question, start a discussion on the policy's talk page. Wikivoyage policies are not sacrosanct, and are revised and updated regularly.

For "Repeat offenses":

It can happen that, even after having been notified with polite but firm requests, a contributor continues to make deliberate unwanted edits. The appropriate response is to revert them. If they continue to ignore the policy, escalating blocks may be appropriate.

Ground Zero (talk) 13:32, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

This discussion is long overdue. I share Ikan Kekek's objections, and Ground Zero's proposed replacement language sounds fine to me, at least for starters. Let me look and think this over for a while longer and I'll see if I can come up with any refinements of my own. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:13, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

We never concluded this discussion. If there are no further comments in 7 days, I will implement my two proposals above. Ground Zero (talk) 23:50, 23 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Looks fine to me.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate the followup and of course continue to support your proposals. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:04, 24 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Sorry I didn't comment earlier. Thanks for the proposal, Ground Zero. I have now had a think about this and I have another proposal.

The page as a whole, and including the 'Defiance of policy' section, is aimed at established WVers seeking to protect WV. It is not written as advice to editors making unwanted edits. The 2nd sentence of the proposed change to 'Defiance of policy' is aimed at editors who are defying policy, so would muddle the page in terms of its intended audience. Also, changing the middle part of the paragraph as proposed would leave the remainder of the paragraph seriously disjointed.

This section was originally titled 'Challenges to policy'. It was changed in June 2007 per this archived discussion. The editor who implemented the change admitted that they might not have done it well. I propose partly reverting that 2007 change, but changing the title (and related wording) again. My proposed wording, with new text underlined, is:

Disagreement with policy

Sometimes contributors who make mistakes just won't agree that what they're doing is wrong, no matter what the policy says. This is effectively a disagreement with policy and is an opportunity for us to review the policy in question. Is our policy really the right way to serve travelers and make a good travel guide? If so, is it stated well, or does the explanation need to be clarified to make the policy more explicit? Do we explain why the policy is the way it is -- even if it's just an arbitrary decision one way or another?

Disagreement with policy can help improve ....

I also propose that we simply delete the whole 'Repeat offenses' subsection, as 'Escalating user blocks' is now how we deal with repeat offending.

My proposals would remove the problematic language, and also reduce the word count on what is a rather verbose page. Nurg (talk) 23:42, 25 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Nurg, I appreciate your input, but I fail to see how edit wars are any kind of good opportunity to reexamine policy, as such reexamination has to be done via a discussion that has a chance to lead to a new consensus. Edit wars are pretty much only a problem. You remember how things went with Frank and Alice. Did those edit wars help in any way other than to ultimately prod us, after years of futility, to design our current escalating block policy? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Implemented as described above. Ground Zero (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

I have been sporadically participating on this wiki, mainly on talk pages. It seemed like a small and friendly wiki and I enjoyed reading and contributing here. However, I cannot find any information about this wiki's blocking policy. For example, can I be blocked because I do not provide an email address?

I am particularly worried because it appears that some users are being globally locked out of all wmf-wikis after being blocked locally on some small wikis. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 19:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

• as an admin, I can testify Wikivoyage adminship is somewhat in permanent alert status against vandalism, toutism, spamming, graffiti and such. On weekends and end-of-year periods, the amount of unwanted edits seems to rise, and so does our alertness. Some of us are admins on Wikipedia, Simple Wikipedia, Wikidata and such, and usually act global when it comes to global vandals.

If you notice the column on the left, click on "Get Involved#Policies", the sections you seek shall be about the first of the list. They should clarify. --Ibaman (talk) 20:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

"can I be blocked because I do not provide an email address?" - No, absolutely not. As a good faith user who has made positive contributions, you shouldn't worry about being blocked. We block people for having a detrimental impact on the website, through disruptive behaviour, vandalism, repeated flouting of policy, persistent touting... Does that sound like you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Exactly what I was going to say. You've quickly made yourself a valuable Wikivoyager. Don't worry about a thing, in regard to your status, and carry on. In terms of your questions about blocking policy, I think Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits explains most of it, and Wikivoyage:Deny recognition is also relevant. If you see reversions and blocks you don't understand, they're probably because we've recognized a pattern that's been employed by innumerable sockpuppets of a long-term vandal and don't need to waste time trying to have a discussion with the latest sockpuppet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Ottawahitech: I'm glad to read I'm not the only editor here with these concerns. Wikivoyage is the only wiki where I edit without account, because they can't block/ban IP addresses. Admins/moderators on this wiki are extremely short tempered compared to Wikipedia, Wikidata, or OSM, and often assume bad faith rather than good faith particularly from new editors — the discussion above this one is a great example.

On top of that there is a culture of near-zero accountability. Looking at the recent changes history, editors are frequently being banned with vague motivations such as "vandalism", but if you check the edits then there is often nothing wrong with them. The worst part of it is that they known that and delete those edits from logs so that other users can't check what actually happened. The "patterns" that are supposedly "recognised" are not documented or described anywhere...

Unlike other wikis, I'd say editing under a user account is fairly risky on Wikivoyage with the current lack of transparency. 87.74.129.131 17:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

We are not one group, which would be able to agree on blocking some specific type of contributors, nor do we want to keep new contributors out, so even if there is less transparency than you might wish for newcomers or non-logged in contributors, there is control among the admins, such as when I was too pessimistic about one newcomer the other day. Admins can and do check also hidden contributions.

These patterns cannot be described in public, as that would make it too easy for vandals to adapt. There are often subtle likenesses between the edits of these regular vandals – obvious when you have learn to recognise them.

I am quite confident that there is little risk for a good faith editor that isn't scared away by a first mistaken block – and a newcomer with a reputable account on another wiki, linked from the user page, will hardly be blocked by mistake even after some misguided first edits.

–LPfi (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Okay, so is the above IP address another iteration of user:ArticCynda? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'd not be surprised. So, yes, we do agree on blocking certain types of editors, but that we do openly. –LPfi (talk) 21:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘If User:87.74.129.131 feels that any admins have used their powers inappropriately, this would be the place to raise the issue for consideration by other admins. The discussion would need specific examples where the appropriateness of blocking should be re-examined. This would be a worthwhile discussion to have to make sure that we are not discouraging new contributors in our efforts to stop vandalism and to restrain editors who refuse to accept our policies.

Because Wikivoyage has a much smaller pool of active admins than Wikipedia, often we have to act more decisively to deal with vandals and those who refuse to accept our policies. Keeping these people in line take up a lot of time that we'd rather spend building a travel guide.

TT raises the issue of ArticCynda, a user who decided to use Wikivoyage as a platform to promote racist (and, if I recall correctly, anti-Semitic) views. We spent a lot of time trying to deal with that mess, and we don't need to waste our efforts on someone like that. The "Telstra vandal" is another person who wastes our valuable time. We just need to be rid of them. Ground Zero (talk) 21:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

We can and do block IP users, and unfortunately have to do so frequently. Of course, many IP users operate in good faith, and I myself was an IP user for a few years before registering an account. It's inevitable that there will always be someone who complains about moderation, but no good-faith user would like what this site would become — very quickly — without moderation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

• Why do we have Special:AbuseFilter/31 (Unconfirmed Email Detect)? Does it matter if a user has a confirmed email? Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:26, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

That's not all the filter looks for. Yes, there's a reason for it. I think you can imagine why, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

And unless I'm misreading the page, all it's supposed to do is tag the edit for further review (in other words, at WV:Recent changes patrol after it's live). Let me just say that while filters are quite imperfect, their aim is to minimize vandalism without affecting good-faith editors. I would think that would be obvious, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:03, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the filter tags edits with the label "account with unregistered email". It doesn't block the accounts, nor prevent them from editing.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:22, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Transparent moderation is not the same as no moderation. As the questions/remarks from User:Crouch, Swale and User:Ottawahitech indicate, it's the transparency that's lacking. 87.74.129.131 10:03, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

If you have a specific concern about a specific block or a specific admin, then please raise it. If you're just going to make vague claims without backing up with evidence, then please don't bother. Considering you're very likely to be the block-evading banned user I mentioned above, who filled several Brussels articles with racist material, I'm surprised you have the nerve to call anyone out for lack of transparency.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:18, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have userbanned this very obvious instance of ArticCynda block evasion. In the future, I would prefer that we avoid attempting to engage banned users in productive conversation; the reason why they were banned in the first place is because our earlier attempts to do so proved futile. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Posting anonymously here for the first time in 10 years, because I feel someone needs to speak up. Will probably also get my IP blocked for this, but whatever. There is no disagreement about whether moderation is a necessity, and no one wants Chinese nationalist or nazi propaganda, racism, or random redlinks to be added to articles. However there are policies and procedures in place to deal with disruptive behaviour in this community. Blocks/bans are a necessity, but at the very least need community consensus, evidence of wrongdoing, and give the targeted user a chance to defend themselves. The 3 non-moderator users commenting in this thread have all made good contributions to the site. Which hard evidence of wrongdoing was there to block this user, aside from them voicing an opinion that is unpopular among moderators? None of their edits are harmful or disruptive. A 3-month block is also not what most members of our community would find reasonable as a first block under our escalating blocks policy. Those of us who grew up in Central Europe during the late 1980s will recognize the pattern of removing dissident voices from the community. As this thread shows it's still an effective method to silence unpopular discussions. May I remind everyone who's old enough to remember that it were such discussions voicing discontent with WT that ultimately led to the forking of WV from WT? Not everyone who asks a critical question is a 'vandal' or 'enemy'. The interpretation of policies by some moderators/admins causes editors with genuine intentions to be caught in the crossfire of anti-vandalism actions. Ultimately, the fact that user 87.74.129.131 was blocked without clear evidence or justification only illustrates the point they were trying to make. — A concerned Wikivoyager from Poland —The preceding comment was added by 82.132.187.163 (talk • contribs)

Of course, the drawback (for you and us) of you posting anonymously is we have no idea whether you are in fact (a) a long-term productive user whose username or prior IP address we'd recognise; (b) someone who's never posted to Wikivoyage in your life before now aside perhaps from a single edit to Carlisle nearly two years ago, which could equally have been a different individual whose IP address you have now been assigned; or (c) the same individual behind the indefbanned account named above who still for some reason known only to himself wants to stir up division and suspicion among the rest of us.

If (a), it's difficult to see why you think posting from an IP address will make it more likely for the rest of us to sit up and listen, as humans in general tend to like/trust/respond better to people they already know rather than faceless strangers. There is no history on Wikivoyage of long-term productive users having their accounts banned simply for voicing an unpopular opinion, as anyone who has been active "for ten years" would know, and thus no obvious reason for any such person to elect to post anonymously on this one issue.

If (b), it's a mighty strange thing for someone with no prior involvement with Wikivoyage to care about this one issue, instead of getting on with making your first contributions to the travel guide. So strange as to be implausible, in fact.

That would seem to leave (c) as the simplest and most easily-believable option which, as w:Occam's Razor tells us, is therefore most likely to be the truth.

Is there any fault in my logic? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

TT, there are other options, such as someone having been blocked on another wiki and trying to find out whether other English-language projects have similar policies. But those scenarios are just as unlikely as someone posting in American English "from Poland" on a UK IP address "for the first time in 10 years", even though "here" wasn't even here 10 years ago. (This IP has previously been used to edit articles at the English and German-language Wikipedias, too.)

BTW, some volunteers are starting to use wikipedia:Stylometry to detect long-term abusers. It uses purely public information, such as whether the editor talks about "evidence", "clear evidence", "solid evidence", "obvious evidence", etc. We all have our own characteristic styles. I don't know if it's set up for Wikivoyage yet, but it works particularly well whenever someone has posted thousands of words to talk pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Definitely not set up, but might be worth talking about. There seem to be some free programs out there (e.g. Signature, though whether they're any good is another matter!--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

Unfortunately, even though the Hebrew Wikivoyage has been around since 2013 (and I have been the main active user there all this time), so far we have not been able to form a community of multiple users working collaboratively to produce quality content, as I have been the only active user there for quite a long time (and I can only imagine how the site would look like if/when I'll stop being active). Once in a while (usually during the school vacations) we have a rise in activity from a small number of bored young students whom usually follow one or some of these patterns:

1. They all of a sudden become VERY active, while their goals seem to initially be unclear - for instance, last summer a group of 3 young friends (I only found out later that they knew each other and were acting in cahoots) focused on making A LOT of small irrelevant changes in the "Wikivoyage:" space and various other small corrections that weren't necessary at all. After a week or two of such edits they started demanding that they would be granted admin status (voting to support this granting admin statues for each other in the Wikivoyage:Administrators section). I am quite certain that this was their what the purpose of their activity really was about all along, and I fear that they could have more easily "played the system" if they would have been persistent over time because there isn't a large enough community at Hebvoy to prevent a group of friends to try and take over by making their voices be stronger than the voices of the few whom actually do all the work. Also, they could probably just come in and take over if for instance I would be away for a while.
2. Some of them think that the main aim at Wikivoyage is to create as many stubs about random locations around the world and let other editors clean up/expand these stubs. This becomes quite excruciating at most times because, while they spend max 3 minutes copying the basic content needed for a stub from the parallel articles from the Hebrew Wikipedia, I end up spending the next 20-30 minutes fixing up each of those articles, essentially re-writing the whole thing and adding the listings. I can imagine how this might seem even amusing to some of these editors, as if they are "putting me to work".
3. When I try to approach them in the discussion page some aren't polite at all and aren't interested at all in working collaboratively (or understanding why we have to write the articles according to a certain template/guidelines). I can understand this one quite well as I probably would have acted in similar way when I was 11.
4. Some of those users refuse to create original content for Wikivoyage or to translate content from the English Wikivoyage, and instead they just copy paste full text blocks from the parallel articles on the Hebrew Wikipedia - basically thinking that Wikivoyage should eventually be a clone on Wikipedia for destination articles.

Me and the other few active editors on Hebvoy have discussed this issue many times through the years and we never found a real solution beside focusing all of our time and efforts to "playing catchup" with the the very active young newbies. At times it almost feels like we need to be invested in extinguishing fires torched all around the site by an "arsonist".

One possible solution that we probably might have to implement eventually due to this ongoing concern, which have been implemented at the Hebrew Wikipedia in the past in order to deal with the same type of activity, is to have a "Draft:" user space where new editors whom persistently don't follow the guidelines could focus all their energy on writing their articles, until these articles would be good enough to be transferred to the main space by one of the admins (and those users would be blocked from creating new content in the main space until they could be trusted to have this ability).

As of now I've been very careful not to offend or block any of the newbies as the Hebrew Wikivoyage... mainly because we need more Hebrew speakers to patriciate in creating good quality content for the site.

How would you approach similar type of activity here on the English Wikivoyage? Is there a "training program" focused on building up new writers? What exactly would you write them in their discussion page in order to get them on the right direction, while still trying to be as fair and polite as possible and not "burn bridges"?

Any suggestions regarding how to approach this issue would be gladly appreciated. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

The Draft: namespace, according to the people who started it, is where articles go to die. You don't want that.

For #1 (newbie admins), you could have a formal rule that candidates for adminship must have been editing for at least 6 or 12 months.

For #4 (Wikipedia clones), you could have a "speedy deletion" rule that says copies of Wikipedia articles get deleted.

For the others, have you considered not doing that? Just let the page be "broken" for a week, and see whether the newbie tries to improve it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

We'd probably block users like that here if they didn't shape up, but I can easily see where you might not have that luxury at heb.voy. WhatamIdoing's suggestions seem good to me except that I don't like the idea of keeping a page "broken" for a week, but that depends on how it's messed-up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I have asked users to improve stubs they have created before creating more stubs. I enjoy them to add listings, etc. But this type of user generally leaves instead, because they are not interested in creating actual travel articles. Nominating some of these stubs for deletion, or a speedy delete rule could work too. I understand you would rather to turn them into constructive contributors, but that is difficult to do. Ground Zero (talk) 20:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

An older discussion covers some of these issues. Pashley (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

See User talk:Rubbish computer#ES on Talk:Buddhism for some background, but the problem is more general, and my feeling is, the less said about individual vandals publicly, the better, for several reasons: One of them tends to put up useless, sometimes unintentionally insensitive content, and the worst thing he does is put up copyvio. It's not that damaging, it's all easily rolled back, and all his accounts are throwaway, so there's no point in really doing anything but rolling back whatever (though I have advised some longtimers who I think really could recognize typical usernames of his not to bother posting welcome messages to obvious examples of his accounts). At least one has a habit of posting abusive edit summaries and sending abusive emails, but we can revert, block, revdel if necessary, and filter the emails to spam. SHB2000 seems to prefer to discuss individual vandals openly by username, which in my opinion is unnecessary, wastes time, isn't very friendly toward people who are helping out with reversions but don't recognize a particular vandal's M.O., only that the text is useless, and gives the vandal unwarranted visibility. Does anyone else think it's a great idea to spend time discussing vandals publicly and also repeatedly airing aspects of their personal lives? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

You're missing much more about him. Copyvios aren't even the biggest thing about him. Emails are also not the biggest problem about him. His accounts may be throwaway, but do you know how much people he has driven away? The answer is a lot more than you think. He's sent legal threats to people before, and to one editor on another project, he seemed confused, and into why is he getting picked on. Rather than denying recognition, he asked him to stop. Do you think that someone who has such a mental illness would stop. The answer is no. And I doubt he ever will. Instead, I took the time to educate them, and they ended up knowing how much he needs help. It doesn't waste time, because I've got 6 tabs open on the lookout for him, and there is already a problem on another wiki where some editors have been accused of edit warring when reverting him because some admins there think he's just an ordinary vandal. The answer is no. Instead of denying him and forget his existence and let him drive other editors off, education on him is key.

Oh and to privacy, search him up on google, and you can find all of it. And does revealing someone's personal information themself count as outing? The answer is no, that's too bad, but to also realise that it's his mental health condition which causes all of this (such as it's obvious he lives in Illinois as in some edit summaries he says "fight me in rockdale il"). Remember, he is not the ordinary vandal. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

To be frank, I think any discussions about someone's health, even if the information is already public, are harmful, primarily to the person who's the "vandal". If someone chooses to release that personal information, there's procedure, I guess, but just because someone has personal problems doesn't mean we can talk about those in public. If I posted that a wiki user, "good" or "bad," had committed a crime, harmed someone, or lived in a certain place, especially if that user cannot defend him/herself due to an editing block, it's a bit hurtful. These are real people and they need to be treated with basic human rights such as privacy, even if they hate us. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:17, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

You do realise that in his world, what we're saying is all fake and "Antandrus alter-egos". Talking about his health in public just means that in his world "is all Antandrus lies". Perhaps where he lives can be found on his LTA page, and some SPIs on Wikipedia. His crime is all so famous if you rv him so often, which is known to almost all global sysops. And what more, the hurtful info is all the info he outed himself. Not our problem for that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:26, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

I described two different vandals - one rather harmless and the other one much more of a problem. Reread my post. But I still feel that the less said in public, the better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hello folks,

I am typing it on a mobile, in source code, so probably even the SIG will not work. Sorry for typos and mental shortcuts.

WV:Deny recognition is necessary here and Ikan Kekek is right. There is even more to it (one of these is coming from my home wiki and then there is even more more to it, especially on enwiki). It is a cross-WM wiki + other wikis & blogs (and also + RL, as it is always the case) affair, so we need to stop this discussion and take it offline, as it will be copied offwiki & twisted & quoted, etc.: creating a bragging echo chamber and helping LTAs perfect the campaign. Contact me in private if in doubt or for some URLs. (@SHB2000 got an sample, WM only, link from me re this some days ago in his Talk, and yes, I had followed it for +2 years, as a nonadmin.)

Mobile bows Zezen (talk) 04:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

The sig worked. Thanks for your input. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:17, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi all, I think Wikivoyage:Deny recognition definitely applies here. I don't know much about this particular LTA but discussing information like his mental health, legal trouble, etc., even if all this information is public knowledge, makes me feel uncomfortable and feels very wrong. As long as an admin catches this LTA on any new accounts and blocks, I'd say we've done what is needed. Rubbish computer (Talk: Contribs) 12:58, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the rule of thumb I've seen is "revert, block, ignore". We should avoid rewarding these users with attention or making them feel powerful. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:21, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Agreed with most of my colleagues. Deny recognition is the best procedure with most long-term vandals, and particularly with those suspected of suffering from mental illness. We can't help them get better, but we can avoid causing them further distress by giving them negative attention or spreading information that may or may not be accurate, and we can certainly help ourselves and the wiki by reverting, blocking and ignoring.

When it comes to explaining our actions to other users who aren't familiar with an LTA, we can be as brief as possible, and use diffs as examples of the vandal's behaviour only if necessary.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

I wanted to add to my remarks from last night. One thing to think about if we deal with someone who's delusional is that we aren't responsible for how they behave or how they perceive our behavior, but we remain responsible for how we behave, and I don't think that repeatedly airing a user's medical and criminal history is behavior we should want to model. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Generally speaking, I agree with Ikan's thoughts on dealing with vandals (and trolls). Nurg (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

The copyright violation paragraph was written as if the images still were hosted at Wikivoyage. I rewrote it, but I am not sure what to do with copyvios hosted at Commons. Ideally, you nominate them for deletion there, but many of our users might feel very confused doing that. I suggested raising the issue on a talk page, but where? The talk page of the article might work, leaving the issue to patrollers. The Pub would get a wider audience, but do you feel it should be handled elsewhere? A VFD might work well, although what you'd do is just make the nomination, somebody would do the nomination on Commons – case closed. I wouldn't like to recommend something that'd get reverted as out of procedure. I also left the reference to {{copyvio}}, but I don't know whether that's good advice. –LPfi (talk) 10:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Probably another piece of data that acts as if Wikivoyage were still in its days of Wikitravel. I would remove that paragraph entirely – it's not limited to Wikivoyage, FWIW. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Our community may see copyvio images and should be given some advice, I think. We have enough editors that know their way around Commons to handle the few cases. –LPfi (talk) 11:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

For local images only, though. But if that is the case, then wouldn't the file be eligible for speedy deletion? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:45, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia, just as an example, deals with copyvio Commons files very briefly: If an image is available on both projects, and it is deleted here, it's a good idea to also bring it up for deletion on Commons. Nominating a file for deletion on Commons is very simple, but deletion sometimes takes a long time (months). For this reason, if an editor suspects copyvio regarding a Commons file, I think it's good to simply remove the image from the article right away (before it's nominated/deleted on Commons), just in case; if a Commons process determines that it's not in fact copyvio, the image can be put back in if it's a really nice image I guess. I don't think that a discussion will often be needed. Twsabin (talk) 12:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Deletion nomination on Commons is easy, but you need to know how to do it. There is the Javascript link in the margin, and then you need to give a reason. What to write is not obvious, and going to a different site may be confusing in itself. OK, this page is for established users, so that may be a minor problem, but should be pointed out (I did a try now). If the file isn't deleted after all, who gets notified? Nobody, unless you have asked for notifications for the deletion request thread, so removing the image might be premature, unless it is a clear case. –LPfi (talk) 13:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I just read that section of this page. I wouldn't do a Google image search to find out if a photo was copyvio; I'd go to TinEye. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:56, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

So should we replace Google, add TinEye or remove any specific advice? As most images are on Commons these copyvios aren't our responsibility, and the reason to suspect a copyvio in the first place might be enough without doing the image search. –LPfi (talk) 11:02, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to do anything. If an image is tagged as copyvio:

1. Community tech bot will notify us
2. A Commons admin will either delete or start a standard DR
3. CommonsDelinker will remove the file, if no-one beats the bot

Wikipedia (namely enwiki) also has a tendency to act as if it were the WMF project, and it's not uncommon to find users locally uploading files that would be suited to Commons. We don't have such issues on Wikivoyage, possibly due to our firmly-worded warning on Special:Upload. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I remember having such issues here with one user, but yes, they're very uncommon. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

Could you invent UW ("User warning") templates please to add warnings? Thank you! Tailsultimatefan3891 (t | c | ca) 22:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. I take it that you're recommending that we sweep in loads of User warning templates from Wikipedia for use on here? If so, it's a hard no from me. I do little in ways of vandalism-management myself, so I won't comment on how necessary it is to have such templates. Others can judge that better that I can. In any case, there's over 350 templates in that category alone. Wikivoyage, seen its size, does not warrant even 5% of that amount of such templates. Besides, making communication to an editor, who we typically assume to be editing in good faith, automated and cold through the use of pre-formatted templates is not a good change in my eyes.

For the future, please note that Wikivoyage, all things considered, sort of aims to be template-light. Unless it's absolutely necessary, a template is often not desired here. Your template-related edits here are likely to fall on deaf man's ears. When you do request a template though, at least give some context as to the usage and purpose of said template, or link relevant templates on other Wikimedia wikis that would be a base for said template.

As a sidenote, I have removed your subheadings for this thread as it is unlikely to garner so much attention that a breakdown of supporting, opposing and indecisive votes, as well as general discourse about the proposal is needed.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 23:17, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. No, we don't verbatim follow Wikipedia, if it wasn't made clear on your talk page already. Although I disagree with not warning users as per WV:DENY, the English Wikivoyage fundamentally has a history of denying vandals. It's worked for most vandals, though there have been cases where feeding the troll is better. However, none of them would warrant the original wordings used on Wikipedia. In addition, many of Wikipedia's uw templates are out-of-scope – original research may be discouraged on Wikipedia, but we encourage original research on Wikivoyage.

If you are going to warn users, it's much better to use original words. In addition to Wauteurz's comments above, using such templates often discourage communication, and this could be a reason why the Simple English Wikipedia has failed to combat vandalism and spam.

On the other hand, I support one-off warning templates like b:Template:TestAnon, which is a much better way of handling anons who just want to see whether Wikivoyage is really editable. However, you're not proposing that – you're proposing that we should import hundreds of templates, many of which are useless, out-of-scope, or against the fundamentals of dealing with unwanted edits on this wiki. Ultimately, I oppose this proposal.
--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:50, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

Tailsultimatefan3891, at the risk of feeding a troll: You've already been given an unmistakable message several times on your user talk page and other user talk pages where you've had discussions that this is a travel guide and that new users who are not familiar with this site, its policies, guidelines and culture should work on improving destination articles by adding or updating information such as listings, and that you should not cause distractions by importing templates, editing the language on policy pages or impersonating an admin and making erroneous pronouncements, but it seems like you are determined to engage in these kinds of diversions and don't have much interest in improving the travel content of this travel guide. Your preexisting record on en.wikipedia has not escaped us and is visible for all to see. It seems clear that you enjoy riling up volunteers and causing them to waste time, then block your editing privileges. That is a truly strange way to enjoy spending your time. Might you consider taking up hiking, yoga or cooking? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:03, 30 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose, of course not. Replacing human-to-human communication with boilerplate responses (often badly written, inaccurate, or both) is not compatible with this community's value of encouraging newcomers and investing time in helping them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. The reason why Wikipedia uses such templates and the associated gadgets (e.g. Twinkle) is not primarily that they produce more effective notices/warnings in any given case (they very often don't), but because they're a part of the semi-automated workflow, that was created to manage the huge volume of this task in an aggregate sense. From my understanding, it's done there for the sake of necessity, serving several functions: (1) to help manage this task more efficiently, (2) to facilitate the pattern of escalation, by encouraging warnings of increasing severity (and implicitly discouraging anything that breaks the pattern), (3) to make someone's history of warnings easy to access using search, and (4) to indirectly provide guidance to those who would be in a position to issue warnings about what warnings/notices are appropriate and when (not only is there an incredible number of people who need to receive a notice/warning, there's also a fair number of people who could potentially send out an improper or badly written warning). All this is good on Wikipedia (a smart compromise), but I don't see how it would meaningfully apply here. On WV, from both vantage points: dealing with people who need to receive a notice/warning and people who would give out the wrong notice/warning, this isn't something that I see benefiting from more automation; the volume of edits is vastly lower and this work is being done fine as is. Also, there's fewer people and I suppose that it's easy for administrators to find out and remember if someone has attracted their attention in the past. Twsabin (talk) 14:43, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose I don't think these templates are needed for a wiki this size. Rubbish computer (Ping me or leave a message on my talk page) 15:07, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Should we archive this discussion somewhere? It was started by a troll who is now globally locked, and it's quite clear that none of us want to emulate Wikipedia in this respect, although I think many of us respect the imperatives laid out by Twsabin above that drive this kind of semi-automation on our huge sister site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

What is the process for good users to bypass the IP-based mediawiki restrictions that prevent us from editing wikivoyage articles over a commercial VPN or Tor connection? > Your IP address has been blocked from editing Wikivoyage For safety reasons, I never have sex without using a condom. Likewise, I never use the Internet without using a VPN or Tor. These technologies protect users online. This is especially important for at-risk users editing wikivoyage, who may be disclosing their physical location when, for example, adding a hotel to a wikiovyage article. For this reason, it's important that they're able to edit anonymously. Security experts recommend using a VPN (or Tor) for such users to use the Internet safely. These IP-Based restrictions should definitely be in-place for non-logged-in users, but I think we can all agree that logged-in users in good standing should not have IP-Based block restrictions applied to their accounts. And I would argue that all logged-in users should not have IP-Based restrictions applied to their accounts. I'm familiar with spammers, but spam is a non-issue if user account creation is well-controlled. I'm opening this thread because I searched the wiki and I could not find any official policy around users using VPNs or Tor -- or an official process for them to be able to bypass those restrictions. The only thing I did find was a user struggling to make an edit -- and the suggested troubleshooting included clearing cookies, using "private browser" mode, and using a VPN -- all great advice. Wikipedia recognizes that many users need to use VPNs to protect themselves. As such, wikipedia created WP:IPBLOCK for users who need to be able to use tools like VPNs or Tor to be able to do so.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption

Personally, I'd prefer wikivoyage to dissolve all IP-based blocks for logged-in users rather than on a as-approved basis. But, a process for being added to an IPBLOCK exempt list is better than nothing. What is the current policy of wikivoyage around VPNs, Tor, and other proxy tools that at-risk users use to protect themselves online? And what is the current process by which a new or existing user in good standing can get exempt from such IP-blocks? MercifulCarriage (talk) 20:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

You can request IPBE here, but very rarely do we range block open proxies here – if you are affected, more likely than not, you'd be blocked via a global IP range block (GIPBE can be requested at m:SRGP). --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 22:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

We now have (in Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Spambots):

"Spambots are automated scripts posing as a user that post irrelevant links on pages in any namespace (most frequently mainspace or userspace). Their reason for doing this is to improve a website's page ranking in a Google search. They may not even care if their edits are reverted or the pages are deleted, as once their links are posted they sit in the page history, where the Googlebot and other search engines can find them. Disallowing search engines from history pages defeats the spambots' intentions. Wikivoyage's spam filter may also be a useful tool for blocking automated spambots. […]"

So does Google & co use links in old page versions? I tried to find relevant rules in [[../robots.txt]]; the closest matches are these, which disable Special:History… and w/index.php?…&action=history

Disallow: /w/
Disallow: /api/
Disallow: /trap/
Disallow: /wiki/Special:

Those cover the links in the page tabs. They don't cover wiki/Somecity?oldid=nnnn, but that link has to be given explicitly somewhere (such as externally by the spammer), and "noindex" and "nofollow" in the HTML header of old page versions should make the spamming ineffective.

So, if the advised measures are already taken, why have that text? It hints on a need to hide page versions simply because of spam, which isn't our practice, and hardly allowed by policy.

–LPfi (talk) 07:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think search engines generally don't index old page versions, and the quoted text hints at the same ("Disallowing search engines from history pages defeats the spambots' intentions"). It's possible that spammers sometimes use misguided SEO strategies, not understanding what pages are actually indexed. If it's true that this strategy is ineffective, I think we may as well remove the text about it to minimize confusion. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:06, 20 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Users are blocked for 90 days when three months is selected on the fourth of January. Users are blocked for 91 days (13 weeks) when three months is selected on the fourth of April. Users are blocked for 92 days if three months is selected on the fourth of July. So should three months be change to thirteen weeks to make the block fair. (I tested this on my private MediaWiki installation so this is correct). 110.174.23.110 06:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Simple solution: Don't get yourself blocked 3 times. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: Blocked as a RichardHornsby sockpuppet. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

I figured they were a blocked user, but I couldn't figure out who, and he's not one I'm familiar with. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:05, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

m:User:SHB2000/LTAs/RichardHornsby might be of help. (they're a cross-wiki LTA) --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 10:03, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

A couple of IP accounts are adding links to this platform. It's hard to be certain exactly what this platform is, because the "About" button on its front page produces no result. Platforms are usually not OK to link per what not to link to, but if some establishments have no homepages of their own but use this platform, is that better than having nothing in the URL tab? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

If an establishment does not have a web site of their own, but uses a platform instead, then our practice is to allow that link. We have, e.g., a few thousands of such links to Facebook. But if we don't know that an establishment uses that URL and are in control of it, then we should not have the link. Sites that harvest information from other sources are quite common, and some even deliberately leave out the establishment's own web site from the contact info displayed ("register to take control of the information shown"). –LPfi (talk) 10:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Well the question is what sort of platform exactly is tripinafrica.com – is it a platform used in a similar manner as FB/IG for businesses, or is it a platform used in a manner more like Tripadvisor or Yelp? Our approach on how to handle this site depends on what kind of site it is. --SHB (t | c | m) 10:52, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Right. What do you guys think about the platform? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:32, 3 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

It looks like an aggregator site to me, which squarely falls under WV:External links#What not to link to, the kind that, when I look, I delete without much thinking. But it's only my opinion. Ibaman (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

The Privacy Policy page on the site has a page in French, which suggests that both businesses and travellers create accounts on the platform. It is possible that we are seeing links to content posted by the establishment, but I am not keen on a site that is so unwilling to say what who it is. AlasdairW (talk) 00:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Tripinafrica functions similarly to platforms like Facebook Business Pages or Instagram for businesses, specifically catering to the African hospitality sector.

The presence of a provider page indicates that businesses actively use the platform to represent themselves online. 160.155.140.85 07:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. How do you address the other opinions, impressions and remarks in this thread? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

If I'm not mistaken, there isn't any sort of guidance at the moment for what should be revdelled in the case of WV:DENY – only that LTA edits should be revdelled. This isn't much of an issue itself, but I do have an issue with revision deleting usernames – namely, it makes creating other anti-abuse measures including cross-wiki tracking a lot more difficult. There is also no evidence pointing to the fact that revision deleting usernames in addition to the edit alone reduces the number of LTA edits other than the fact that it adds more work for others (since revision deleting usernames prevents an edit from appearing on tools like GUC).

For clarity's sake, this does not affect what type of edits is revision deleted and if we do end up adopting this policy, we would still continue revision deleting revision texts and edit summaries as normal.

Therefore, I propose that we adopt the following:

As a general rule, usernames, temporary account names, and IP addresses should not be revision deleted.

Exceptions may include the following cases:

• IP addresses exposed due to accidental logout (in such cases, an oversight request should be submitted to a steward);
• Extremely offensive, obscene, or abusive usernames (these usernames should be supressed – contact stewards via IRC or to do so; use the "HideUsername" function if you request a lock in public);
• Instances in logs where retaining the username could result in harassment or pose a risk to personal safety (discretion is advised when applying this exception).

Happy to clarify anything. //shb (t | c | m) 07:19, 15 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's important to block and revdel users or socks with extremely offensive usernames, but I don't think anyone should be told they're obligated to contact stewards on IRC, although it's fine to recommend they do that. I don't use IRC, nor do I plan on spending time contacting stewards to suppress obscene or trollish usernames outside of Wikivoyage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:30, 15 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: IRC is really just an alternative to using m:SRG which is used for many official steward matters, it's not an obligation but highly recommended. That said it's a massive pain to deal with so people do (understandably) head to m:SRG instead. But what this proposal really aims to put an end to are logs like Special:Redirect/logid/3875446, Special:Redirect/logid/5032479, Special:Diff/5019247, Special:Diff/5023857 or worse yet, Special:Redirect/logid/3873318 where the username being visible changes little but adds so much extra work for those of us involved with cross-wiki matters. //shb (t | c | m) 08:38, 15 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I mostly agree to the proposal. A few tweaks: (1) Write out "oversight" – avoid jargon when the audience might not be versed in it. (2) I don't think usernames need to be extreme to be revision deleted. Does it cause trouble if an obviously offensive, obscene or abusive username is revision deleted? I don't think a "NN is a pile of shit" is extreme or needs to be oversighted, but I also wouldn't like it to show in page histories. (3) I don't know in what cases a remaining username might cause harassment or personal safety issues – as such, I cannot really have an opinion it. The possible scenarios might need to be discussed in the guideline to allow for informed discretion. –LPfi (talk) 09:20, 15 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the suggestions, LPfi – for one, I've adjusted the proposed wording. For two, in the example you mention such as "NN is a pile of shit", stewards usually have three options for when locking an account as for what to do with usernames – either leave it up completely, hide it from the global users list or suppress the username completely. They'd use their judgment in most cases but in such case, I think deleting the username should be permitted as it's offensive and obscene. The third one is really for suppressing the username of a blocking admin since some LTAs (most often, WMF-banned) do tend to harass sysops that initially blocked them. I realise it's incredibly niche and I wouldn't mind removing that completely. //shb (t | c | m) 08:21, 16 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I also mostly support the proposal, but agree that it shouldn't be required to contact stewards in order to delete offensive usernames. We have the ability here, let's use it, rather than wasting stewards' time.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:01, 21 April 2025 (UTC)Reply