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Archived discussions
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See section too long?
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The template for regions doesn't give any guidance. I guess this is because Region can be used for both large areas (East Asia) and smaller areas (Texas), Can we cut this down a bit? I don't think China and Japan should have so many. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- What do you think the top sights are in East Asia? Playing Pachinko is not a sight, but Mt. Fuji probably should be there and isn't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Personally I think See sections in anything above countries (and why not countries too?) should be written in running text rather than bulleted points. That way we can mention more sights and it's also visually more pleasant. Have a look at South America#See. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:35, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do agree on that style point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
"Cities" and "Other destinations" aren't arrenged alphabetically
[edit]The sections "Cities" and "Other destinations" should be arranged alphabetically. --Soumya-8974 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:24, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- If you have the time, go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:31, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
Yungang Grottoes
[edit]Yungang Grottoes is currently a redirect to Datong City. Therefore, we should replace it with any other notable destination in East Asia. I recommend either DMZ (Korea) or Hainan. --Soumya-8974 (he) (talk • contribs) 13:21, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
- The DMZ is already represented by Panmunjeom, I'd go for Hainan. The unusual-looking hills around Guilin would be another possible replacement. --Ypsilon (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
[edit]The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:50, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Needs to be locally uploaded. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:19, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see it in any of the 3 en.voy articles it's said to be in. The list is:
- If it's not visible anywhere, we don't need to upload it locally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:13, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Hong Kong identity
[edit]Do we really need to go into details about Hong Kong (and Taiwan):
- The Chinese are Chinese, the Japanese are Japanese and the Koreans are Korean. [...] On the other hand, despite their Chinese heritage, many Hongkongers and Taiwanese, especially the youth, reject the "Chinese" identity and instead consider themselves to be a separate people, often emphasising their British and Japanese colonial heritage respectively instead.
There are certainly other groups whose relations to the majority of their country and their ethnic mates abroad is complicated. I think the last sentence in the quoted paragraph can be left to the respective country articles. If needed we can say that not everybody with Chinese heritage identify as Chinese, but I think that's more a thing for Respect: don't assume people have a straight-forward relation to their country or to related ethnicities.
–LPfi (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
- There are many ethnic Korean Chinese, and Chinese and Koreans are (or at least if they aren't, which I think they are, until recently were) the largest minorities in Japan and don't always have an easy time becoming citizens even if they are 3rd-generation Japanese-born people. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:47, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
- The opening of the paragraph was softened by sentences I left out in my quote, as that was not what I tried to discuss. But yes, we might want to add something about such non-straight-forwardness – keeping it general. –LPfi (talk) 20:19, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think we can remove everything after "emphasise the unique aspects of their cultures." The claims about Hong Kong and Taiwan strike me as questionable generalizations (Hongkongers and Taiwanese vary in how they identify), and in any case it's an unnecessary level of detail for this article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- The opening of the paragraph was softened by sentences I left out in my quote, as that was not what I tried to discuss. But yes, we might want to add something about such non-straight-forwardness – keeping it general. –LPfi (talk) 20:19, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. We should add other things to Respect. I think the level of formality and respect for elderly and authorities may be something to point out for people like me, from the Nordic countries. There may also be things about eating habits (I've understood there are things you should and shouldn't do with your chop sticks), and certainly some other things to watch out for. Details can go elsewhere, but easy ways to commit a faux-pas should be pointed out unless they are very local. –LPfi (talk) 11:26, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- It's true that there are many Hongkongers and Taiwanese identify as Chinese, and that was the majority until well into the 1990s. But today, the young people overwhelmingly reject the "Chinese" identity and desire independence from China. Those who still have a sense of Chinese identity are mostly middled aged to elderly. Like I mentioned, when Japan defeated China for the gold in the table tennis mixed doubles at the Olympics, the Taiwanese were celebrating wildly and writing things like "thank you Japan for defeating those vile Chinese for us". It is an undisputed fact that the young Taiwanese identify more with Japan than with China, even though their ancestors may have come from China, and they speak dialects of Chinese rather than Japanese. And for Americans here, there are so many Taiwanese living in the U.S. Just go to any prestigious university and ask the Taiwanese students. There are of course exceptions but they overwhelmingly vehemently reject any notion of being "Chinese", and are very adamant that they are Taiwanese and Taiwanese only. Likewise, just talking to the Hongkongers living in the West. They wave British flags and sing the British national anthems, and identify more with Britain than China. And yes, there are a minority who identify as Chinese, but the Hongkongers studying in British and American universities overwhelmingly desire independence from China, and feel offended when people address them in Mandarin. When some of the got assaulted by racists because of COVID, their response was usually "Why are you targeting me. I'm not Chinese. I'm a Hongkonger.". And just look at the Twitter feed of Frances Hui. She actually mentioned that she was offended that "Hongkonger" is not listed as an ethnicity in forms asking for demographic information, and she emphatically does not want to identify as "Chinese".
- And yes, there is a complication regarding the ethnic Koreans from China. They are in fact heavily discriminated against in South Korea, and South Koreans often refer to them as the "penis race". The South Koreans are still very outraged about China nominating the Goguryeo tombs are world heritage sites, because they consider that to be Korean history, and are of the view that China has no right to claim it as part of their history. Also, there was a dispute because China registered Sichuan-style preserved vegetables (pao cai) with the ISO, but because the Chinese word "pao cai" is also used to refer to kimchi (Chinese people know that they are not the same thing, though China also claims kimchi as a traditional dish of their ethnic Korean minority), South Koreans see that as an appropriation of Korean culture and are still deeply angered by it. In addition, there is still deep anger in South Korea about the fact that an ethnic Korean from China wore a hanbok at the opening ceremony of the recent Winter Olympics, because in the South Korean view, hanbok is a Korean and not a Chinese outfit and China has no right to claim it (although South Koreans will on the other sense feel a deep sense of pride when a Korean-American wears a hanbok). So in short, South Koreans also have a deep aversion to any kind of association with China, and they are fiercely protective of Korean people's status as a separate people from the Chinese. While in the U.S. it's common to refer to all these people as part of one "Asian" race, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans most certainly do not consider themsleves to be the same race, and to suggest that they are the same race is certainly offensive here. The dog2 (talk) 18:55, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- It would seem a lot of people fail to understand the difference between race and ethnicity. STW932 (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- In the first place, these things are social constructs. Although ancestry is a biological variable. The dog2 (talk) 17:13, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- It would seem a lot of people fail to understand the difference between race and ethnicity. STW932 (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- And yes, there is a complication regarding the ethnic Koreans from China. They are in fact heavily discriminated against in South Korea, and South Koreans often refer to them as the "penis race". The South Koreans are still very outraged about China nominating the Goguryeo tombs are world heritage sites, because they consider that to be Korean history, and are of the view that China has no right to claim it as part of their history. Also, there was a dispute because China registered Sichuan-style preserved vegetables (pao cai) with the ISO, but because the Chinese word "pao cai" is also used to refer to kimchi (Chinese people know that they are not the same thing, though China also claims kimchi as a traditional dish of their ethnic Korean minority), South Koreans see that as an appropriation of Korean culture and are still deeply angered by it. In addition, there is still deep anger in South Korea about the fact that an ethnic Korean from China wore a hanbok at the opening ceremony of the recent Winter Olympics, because in the South Korean view, hanbok is a Korean and not a Chinese outfit and China has no right to claim it (although South Koreans will on the other sense feel a deep sense of pride when a Korean-American wears a hanbok). So in short, South Koreans also have a deep aversion to any kind of association with China, and they are fiercely protective of Korean people's status as a separate people from the Chinese. While in the U.S. it's common to refer to all these people as part of one "Asian" race, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans most certainly do not consider themsleves to be the same race, and to suggest that they are the same race is certainly offensive here. The dog2 (talk) 18:55, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Not a soapbox
[edit]Recent edits gave shown that it is time for The dog2 to stop using this article, and Wikivoyage generally, as a soapbox for their opinions, especially given their history of adding statements that are false. If The dog2 is not willing to focus on travel content, they should find another forum for their opinions on culture, politics, and history. Ground Zero (talk) 10:18, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Topics chosen and being edited by my students
[edit]The list should be mostly complete (not all students have chosen the topic, despite the deadline for the choice having passed over a week ago...). Feel free to watchlist those (as they will likely see some newbie mistakes). If you make changes/fixes, it is good to explain them in an edit summary so that the student can learn (I encourage my students to review the history of those pages and read edit summaries).
- Aletai
- Andong
- Burqin
- Dangjin
- Danyang
- Dazu
- dongying
- Emeishan
- Fuding
- Garzê
GonjiamDistrict of Gwangju (Gyeonggi) and merged and redirected to that article.- Hanzhong
- Hongseong
- Jincheng
- Jining_(Shandong)
- Jishou
- Libo County
- Luzhou
- Menghai
- Mohe
- Nonsan
- Pocheon
- Pu'er
- Putian
- Pyeongtaek
- Ruili
- Sanmenxia
- Seoul/East
- Seoul/North
- Shangrao
- Siheung
- Suqian
- wuhai
- Yanbian
- Yancheng
- Yangjiang
- Yangju
- Yecheon
- Yuzhou
- Zibo
Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 07:48, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
- 謝謝 for the heads up. For those who don't know, you can temporarily add pages to your watchlist, so the watching expires after x days. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 11:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: If only we could have timed your students' writing to coincide with the Wikipedia Asian Month - Wikivoyage Special Edition! OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- @OhanaUnited If I read that page correctly, it starts in November and continues for a month? The class will still be active during that period. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 07:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's actually two months, from November 20, 2024 and January 20, 2025. So your class will have ample amount of time to participate, if you and they wish. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:46, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- @OhanaUnited If I read that page correctly, it starts in November and continues for a month? The class will still be active during that period. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 07:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: If only we could have timed your students' writing to coincide with the Wikipedia Asian Month - Wikivoyage Special Edition! OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
@Hanyangprofessor2: I am getting really fed up with your students making the same mistakes over and over again. I am doing my best to coach them on their talk pages, but many of them just ignore what I write. I support using Wikivoyage as a learning tool, but your students must respect other members if the community. It is time for you to have a talk with them, or start paying us to be your teaching assistants. Ground Zero (talk) 03:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero Students will be students; some will not listen (read...); others simply won't understand the instructions. I appreciate you providing feedback to many, but if you find it troublesome, feel free to ignore them - you are not required to be my teaching assistant, as much as, again, I appreciate your efforts. If a student keeps ignoring advice despite being repeatedly asked to fix an error and repeats it, being disruptive, feel free to block them (after, preferably, giving them a last warning and pinging me regarding this). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 07:25, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Hanyangprofessor2: your goal is to use Wikivoyage as a teaching tool for your students. Our goal is to build a useful travel guide. How can we work together to achieve both goals?
- Wikivoyage isn't a playground where they just just do whatever they want and walk away. It is a community project. Ignoring your students' errors doesn't achieve either of the goals we have. I don't understand why you would suggest that. And it isn't going to happen.
- We want to use your students' contributions to improve Wikivoyage -- and most of them do -- and that is why other editors and I coach them. You can see our coaching on their talk pages and on article talk pages.
- But when they ignore the advice and assistance they are being given and continue to make the same errors, they are being disruptive and creating ill-will. This is true of any community project, or any job they may have in the future.
- Following your advice, we will revert your students' edits and block them from editing rather than let them mess up our travel guide. This isn't constructive activity, though, for us or for your students: it takes up our time while not improving Wikivoyage. But where the time we spend coaching is also being wasted, it is the better option.
- Where you can help avoid this wasted effort for both parties is by making it clear to them that if they are going to use Wikivoyage as a learning tool, they have a responsibility to the other members of the community. And the same is true for you, professor. Ground Zero (talk) 13:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- GZ, I think the point is that you don't have to be the one to fix the students' (or any other newbies') problems. If you don't want to do it, then leave it alone and let someone else do it. What's not so helpful is for us to clean it up before he has a chance to do it himself, and then complain that he didn't do the work ...because we didn't wait long enough for him do it.
- The page views for most of these articles is a couple of readers per day. That means that most of the time, we have an average of 8 to 24 hours to fix any problems before anyone will see them. We don't need everything to be perfect instantly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- @User:WhatamIdoing, I don't think your criticism is fair. If I clean up an article to demonstrate to a new editor how things are done, I don't complain about them not doing it. There are students whom I have asked to fix their errors and who have done so. That is a success. And then there are students who ignore the requests by experienced editors to fix their mistakes. I usually wait a week or two (which is a lot more than 24 hours), and watch to see if they are making new edits. Some of them do not fix their mistakes, and continue to make the same mistakes in new edits. I think it is fair to address the problem of these students with their professor. Ground Zero (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero I am afraid I don't understand your point. I tell my students to follow best practices, which are linked to, explained and demonstrated in class on many occasions, and I provide them with feedback. Some of them, however, will not listen, nor learn, and will try to cheat (newsflash: some students use AI generators for content or even discussion... welcome to ChatGPT era, sigh), etc. They are students, and not all students are good. A minority will fail the class, and unfortunately cause trouble for us - just like a minority of non-student editors will. What do you expect me to do? I cannot force the (bad) students to fix things if they don't want to. If the edits of the worst students are net negative, they should be reverted and the students who refuse to heed up repeated warnings should be blocked, just like disruptive regular users. I expect the students to get no special treatment outside (I think it is not too much to ask for) a courtesy ping to me, their instructor, in relevant discussions, so I can be aware of what is going on, and I can reinforce your message (but please don't block them without waiting a week or two to see if the issues are resolved, and note that while I try to watchlist various user and article talk pages, I can occasionally miss something, so pinging me is very useful for ensuring I am aware of the issue and can step in). Anyway, at the end of the day, I think the students create net positive value for Wikivoyage, so the assignment is welcome here? PS. As some of you know, the text of my Wikivoyage assignments is available at my userpage (User:Hanyangprofessor2; to be moved to a subpage in the near future). Feel free to suggest any rewordings, revisions, new activities, etc. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Hanyangprofessor2: unlike regular disruptive editors, your students create a problem for Wikivoyage because there are so many of them, and there is a significant proportion who ignore requests to fix their errors and keep making the same errors. Here are some of them: User talk:Guoying1, User talk:Parksungeun, User talk:Ysrfield, User:CHEN HEBING and User:LJY2455 (see Talk:Suqian), User talk:Dbinni, User talk:SHENZIHE, User talk:SongHyeonmin2020007129. We put a lot of effort into coaching your students, because they are students who are working in a second language, but we have no way to reach them outside of talk pages. You do have another way to reach them, and that is why we are asking for your help. If your approach is to say, "I do what I can, but it's not my problem", then I guess our response should be to spend less time coaching, and just revert and block. One request for changes, and then I'll block. Ground Zero (talk) 13:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero I am afraid I don't understand your point. I tell my students to follow best practices, which are linked to, explained and demonstrated in class on many occasions, and I provide them with feedback. Some of them, however, will not listen, nor learn, and will try to cheat (newsflash: some students use AI generators for content or even discussion... welcome to ChatGPT era, sigh), etc. They are students, and not all students are good. A minority will fail the class, and unfortunately cause trouble for us - just like a minority of non-student editors will. What do you expect me to do? I cannot force the (bad) students to fix things if they don't want to. If the edits of the worst students are net negative, they should be reverted and the students who refuse to heed up repeated warnings should be blocked, just like disruptive regular users. I expect the students to get no special treatment outside (I think it is not too much to ask for) a courtesy ping to me, their instructor, in relevant discussions, so I can be aware of what is going on, and I can reinforce your message (but please don't block them without waiting a week or two to see if the issues are resolved, and note that while I try to watchlist various user and article talk pages, I can occasionally miss something, so pinging me is very useful for ensuring I am aware of the issue and can step in). Anyway, at the end of the day, I think the students create net positive value for Wikivoyage, so the assignment is welcome here? PS. As some of you know, the text of my Wikivoyage assignments is available at my userpage (User:Hanyangprofessor2; to be moved to a subpage in the near future). Feel free to suggest any rewordings, revisions, new activities, etc. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- @User:WhatamIdoing, I don't think your criticism is fair. If I clean up an article to demonstrate to a new editor how things are done, I don't complain about them not doing it. There are students whom I have asked to fix their errors and who have done so. That is a success. And then there are students who ignore the requests by experienced editors to fix their mistakes. I usually wait a week or two (which is a lot more than 24 hours), and watch to see if they are making new edits. Some of them do not fix their mistakes, and continue to make the same mistakes in new edits. I think it is fair to address the problem of these students with their professor. Ground Zero (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)